Is Calvinism Wrong?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

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[blackbirdking]

Calvinists teach salvation exclusively by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

False; they teach salvation selectively "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ"; that's a far cry from exclusively.

Everything else is window dressing.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

They've already barred the window.:vomit:

 

[Robert Pate]

False; they teach salvation selectively "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ"; that's a far cry from exclusively.




They've already barred the window.:vomit:

Right. Selective grace is not grace at all. The word "grace" means God's unmerited favor towards fallen man. Not just some men, but all men. "God so loved the world" not just some of the world, but all of the world.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It was directed at Calvinists whose doctrine, he said, made God the author of sin. This is, of course, untrue.

Isn't it the Calvinists who teach that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4)?

Who else but God can be responsible for that?

 

[Rosenritter]

Isn't it the Calvinists who teach that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4)?

Who else but God can be responsible for that?

"Wholly inclined" sounds like one of those oxymorons, like "positively uncertain"or "sorta like, literally."

 

[Robert Pate]

Isn't it the Calvinists who teach that all people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4)?

Who else but God can be responsible for that?

God has taken full responsibility for the sins of man. This is why he sent his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2. It is not our fault that we are sinners, but its our fault if we don't accept Christ as our savior.

 

[Nanja]

Pate

its our fault if we don't accept Christ as our savior.

So then you boast that your work of accepting Christ is what saves you.

But the scriptures say otherwise:


Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Rom. 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Rosenritter]

Pate

So then you boast that your work of accepting Christ is what saves you.

But the scriptures say otherwise:


Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Rom. 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

What types of backwards logic equates assuming fault with oneself as boasting?

 

[Nanja]

What types of backwards logic equates assuming fault with oneself as boasting?

Doublespeak.

 

[Rosenritter]

Doublespeak.

... (wow)

 

[ttruscott]

Yes, but they deny the Scriptures when they assert that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel.

How does this not imply that no one has ever sinned the unforgivable sin? And if no one is unforgiven, why was it mentioned as if the Pharisees had just indeed sinned the unforgivable sin?

Or do we consider that those who are unforgivable do have the ability to believe the gospel and so can be forgiven after all if GOD would only quit playing such hard ball? I'm curious too how the doctrine that everyone has the ability to believe the gospel relates to those CONDEMNED ALREADY in Jn 3:18, ie, at conception? at birth? at the time of hearing the gospel? at the time the gospel was proclaimed and written?

In other words, when did "already" start or happen and if they can believe the gospel unto salvation, why are they not given the gift of faith?

To me, if someone is in hell for eternity it can only be because they cannot be forgiven, they cannot ever believe / accept the gospel and their fate was firmly sealed when they chose to sin the unforgivable sin.

Anyone able to be forgiven will be forgiven.
No one who CAN believe unto faith will be left in unfaith and therefore be damned.
No one!
One person in the lake of fire ends all this speculation about everyone being able to believe unto faith.

 

[ttruscott]

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-5).

Here we read that those who are perishing had the ability to see the light of the gospel but they were perishing because they were blinded to its light.

That can only mean that even the unsaved can see the light of the gospel. That means that before anyone can be blinded to its light they must first have the ability to see its light. So all people have the ability to see the light of the gospel.

Please consider that the METHOD of the god of this age USED to blind the minds of unbelievers was by his assertion and proclamation AT HIS FALL that YHWH was a false god and a liar, and as the first liar in all of reality, then HE must be the most sinful person in reality, which is the the unforgivable sin.

When those in their innocence (ie, before being born in sin), who had an equal ability and opportunity to believe by faith and accept by their free will YHWH as their GOD and HIS Son as their saviour OR to reject HIM by their free will as a false god and his promises of salvation as a false hope because there was no such thing as sin...some followed Satan and rejected YHWH as their GOD.

You are quite right that to be blinded to the truth means they must have had the ability to accept the truth but once they rejected the gospel truth they become enslaved by evil, unable to ever choose truth again and became locked into self made chains of darkness, ie the inability to believe the truth forever. Since they are enslaved to sin at birth this cannot have happened in this human life as I continually assert, but must have happened before we were sinful humans while still in our innocence.

Neither can sinners (and all are born sinners) ever have the truth and understand the truth AND BE ABLE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH yet not be given the gift of faith and reject the truth unto damnation as this would be contrary to HIS loving righteousness which wants no man to be condemned.

 

[Robert Pate]

Pate




So then you boast that your work of accepting Christ is what saves you.

But the scriptures say otherwise:


Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Rom. 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Being convicted by the Holy Spirit of ones need for Christ is not a work of man. It is a work of God, not of man. You apparently have never been convicted by the Holy Spirit, so you don't understand this.

 

[George Affleck]

Many people would agree that this is an accurate statement (or at least one accurate statement) of the gospel:

John 3:14-17 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The question is whether Calvinism denies that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish" or whether it says that "whomever God chose to believe in him should not perish" and as such it might be good to look at the purpose of the gospel.

I don't disagree that this is one way the New Testament has of helping us understand our salvation. But, if you are going to cite it, you must be willing to live by it's implications.

Who had the ability to look upon the serpent? The chosen people of God only. There were other souls in existence during the time of Moses who were given no opportunity to experience this physical salvation and certainly would have died of snakebite. This was a provision for God's people only.

preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God[/B],
(15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Again, the difficulty arises where Calvinism says that the sinner cannot repent or believe unless God has selected him from before the beginning of the world. As such, it is not the hearer (or the sinner) that believes and repents, but rather God that believes and repents on behalf of the sinner and imparts this belief and repentance on the person who has no choice in the matter.

Here you are assuming that a particular universal theology should be formulated based on your belief that these words were spoken to everyone who has ever lived without keeping them in context. The audience was the people of Galilee as stated. In addition, it is to be understood that not all Galileans heard Him. It only says that He preached in Galilee, not who the "ye" was.

I would much rather God be the author of my salvation than leave that responsibility in my pitiful hands. If it is His gift to me, based on mercy, then I know that it is safe. I also know that He will do right by all.

 

[Rosenritter]

I don't disagree that this is one way the New Testament has of helping us understand our salvation. But, if you are going to cite it, you must be willing to live by it's implications.

Who had the ability to look upon the serpent? The chosen people of God only. There were other souls in existence during the time of Moses who were given no opportunity to experience this physical salvation and certainly would have died of snakebite. This was a provision for God's people only.

Those that could look upon the brazen serpent included all Israel, because Israel was the only ones afflicted with the deadly bite of the serpent.

John 12:32-33 KJV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Those that may look upon the Lamb include all men, for like instance of Israel in the wilderness, all men are subject to the wages of sin and the sting of death.

 

[George Affleck]

Israel was the only ones afflicted with the deadly bite of the serpent.

How do you know this?

John 12:32-33 KJV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Those that may look upon the Lamb include all men, for like instance of Israel in the wilderness, all men are subject to the wages of sin and the sting of death.

Please notice that you are changing God's Word from "I...will draw all men" to "Those that may look upon...".
Please notice that you are saying "Israel in the wilderness" = "all men".

 

[Rosenritter]

How do you know this?

Because the text says so in the description, Israel was afflicted with the serpents that day, for a specific reason.

Numbers 21:5-6 KJV
(5) And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
(6) And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Please notice that you are changing God's Word from "I...will draw all men" to "Those that may look upon...".
Please notice that you are saying "Israel in the wilderness" = "all men".

Yes, the people of Israel in the wilderness is the representative of all men, as in the world, as in "God so loved the world..." (John 3:16)

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Perhaps you might say that there are some that cannot see, but it is first because they would not see. Those that receive not a love of the truth may given over to delusion, but as the scripture itself says (if it is to be believed) that is in response the choice of person. One may love truth or prefer delusion, and if so, that is what will be received.

Numbers 21:8-9 KJV
(8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
(9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

If those bitten by the serpent would not look, they still died. When... is a condition.

 

[Nanja]

Being convicted by the Holy Spirit of ones need for Christ is not a work of man. It is a work of God, not of man. You apparently have never been convicted by the Holy Spirit, so you don't understand this.

It's only the regenerate / Born of God that are led by the Spirit, which bears evidence that they were ordained to Eternal Life Acts 13:48 and Chosen to believe the Truth 2 Thes. 2:13.

But the believing the natural man such as yourself does, is merely a work of the flesh that can't please God Rom. 8:8.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

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