Jose Fly
New member
Do you remember YEC Baumgardner's estimates that such events would generate enough heat to boil off the oceans and atmosphere, and only could have occurred with multiple significant miracles? Should I post that again?
If Evolution
- Thread starter CherubRam
- Start date
Do you remember YEC Baumgardner's estimates that such events would generate enough heat to boil off the oceans and atmosphere, and only could have occurred with multiple significant miracles? Should I post that again?
Jose, what does lubricant do? (eg oil, grease, water)
Jose Fly
New member
LOL. Lubricants lubricate. But lubrication is irrelevant to the issue of the cooling of the lithosphere and other necessary events.
Do I need to post Baumgardner's estimates again? Keep in mind, he didn't even account for all the events and their necessary consequences; he just focused on the bigger ones and concluded over and over again that "some other mechanism seems to be needed". IOW, miracles.
So let's say there were large caverns of water underneath the continental plates, let's call them hydroplates, would a significant amount of water lubricate the plates enough to cut down on the amount of friction, and therefore the amount of heat being generated? (Note, I have not brought up any miracles at all so far.)
Jose Fly
New member
Tell ya what...let's just post the paper:
http://www.icr.org/article/large-scale-tectonic-change-flood/
(click the PDF link below the title to see the full paper)
From the conclusion:
IOW, "none of this works without lots and lots of miracles".
http://www.icr.org/article/large-scale-tectonic-change-flood/
(click the PDF link below the title to see the full paper)
From the conclusion:
Finally, it seems evident that the Flood catastrophe cannot be understood or modeled in terms of time invariant laws of nature. Intervention by God in the natural order during and after the catastrophe appears to be a logical necessity. Manifestations of the intervention appear to include an enhanced rate of nuclear decay during the event and a loss of thermal
energy afterward. Although many scientists do not readily entertain such possibility, Scripture indicates that God has indeed on rare occasions intervened in the laws of nature on a grand scale. 2 Peter 3:3–6 states that one of these occasions was during the Flood. May this point prove not to be a stumbling block to involvement for many in one of the most exciting areas of discovery in the history of science.
energy afterward. Although many scientists do not readily entertain such possibility, Scripture indicates that God has indeed on rare occasions intervened in the laws of nature on a grand scale. 2 Peter 3:3–6 states that one of these occasions was during the Flood. May this point prove not to be a stumbling block to involvement for many in one of the most exciting areas of discovery in the history of science.
IOW, "none of this works without lots and lots of miracles".
Jose Fly
New member
Nope. As shown in Baumgardner's estimates, moving that much mass, that much distance, in such a short time frame would generate more than enough heat to boil off whatever water you think would serve as a lubricant. And keep in mind, if that water is deep underneath entire continental plates, it's already super-heated to begin with.
- one sec
Jose Fly
New member
What are the differences that alleviate the heat problems identified by Baumgardner?
See my edit
As opposed to the theory I hold to?
Ok, so after reading the abstract a few times and scanning the entire article, it seems Baumgardner is writing from the perspective of CPT (Catastrophic Plate Tectonics). I hold to the HPT (the Hydroplate Theory), which has large interconnected caverns (forming a sort of shell) of vast oceans of water at 60 miles below the surface of the earth. Therefore, whatever calculations he made would not apply to the HPT, as they don't account for any sort of lubricant, whereas the HPT does have a lubricant (which, because you didn't actually answer above, I'll state here what lubricant does). From Wikipedia:
| A lubricant is a substance, usually organic, introduced to reduce friction between surfaces in mutual contact, which ultimately reduces the heat generated when the surfaces move. It may also have thefunction of transmitting forces, transporting foreign particles, or heating or cooling the surfaces. |
Have you ever heard of supercritical water or fluids? Such an interesting subject.
| Temperatures increase with depth inside the earth. Subterranean water about 60 miles below the earth’s surface would have been extremely hot. Wouldn’t all life on earth have been scalded if that water flooded the earth? No. Today’s geothermal heat is a result of the flood. Let’s first understand what made the subterranean water hot—tidal pumping that produced supercritical water (SCW)—a very high-energy, explosive form of water discovered in 1822. (Besides, the expanding fountains of the great deep became very cold. See "Rocket Science" on pages 600–601.) Tidal Pumping. Tides in the subterranean water lifted and lowered the massive crust twice daily, stretching and compressing the pillars, thereby generating heat and raising the temperature of the subterranean-water. As quartz and certain other minerals dissolved, this hot, high-pressure water increasingly contained the ingredients that would later produce limestone (CaCO3), salt (NaCl), other forms of quartz (SiO2). In a few chapters, you will see why, after the flood, this dissolved quartz petrified some wood and cemented loose flood sediments into sedimentary rocks. SCW. At a pressure of one atmosphere—about 1.01 bar or 14.7 psi (pounds per square inch)—water boils at a temperature slightly above 212°F (100°C). As pressure increases, the boiling point rises. At a pressure of 3,200 psi (220.6 bars) the boiling temperature is 705°F (374°C). Above this pressure-temperature combination, called the critical point, water is supercritical and cannot boil! Nor will any amount of pressure liquefy the water vapor! The pressure in the 60-mile-deep subterranean chamber, simply due to the weight of the crust, was about 372,000 psi (25,550 bars)—far above the critical pressure. After no more than 10 years of tidal pumping, the subterranean water exceeded the critical temperature, 705°F. As the temperature rose, the pressure grew, the crust stretched and weakened, and the energy from tidal pumping increasingly ionized the water. SCW can dissolve much more salt (NaCl) per unit volume than normal water—up to 840°F (450°C). At higher temperatures, all salt precipitates (out-salts). In a few pages, this fact will show why our oceans have so much salt, and how salt domes formed. SCW consists of microscopic liquid droplets dispersed within very dense water vapor. Hot droplets cool primarily by evaporation from their surfaces. The cooling rate is proportional to their total surface area. The smaller a droplet, the larger its surface area is relative to its volume, so more of its heat can be quickly transferred to its surroundings. Liquid droplets in SCW have an area-to-volume ratio that is a trillion (1012) times greater than that of the flood water that covered the earth’s surface. Consequently, the liquid in SCW cools almost instantly if its pressure drops, because the myriad of shimmering liquid droplets, each surrounded by vapor, can simultaneously evaporate. A typical SCW droplet at 300 bars and 716°F (380°C) consists of 5–10 molecules. These droplets evaporate, break up, and reform rapidly and continually. This explains how the escaping supercritical liquid transferred its energy into supercritical vapor. How did the vapor lose its energy and cool? Rapid expansion. A remarkable characteristic of supercritical fluids is that a small decrease in pressure produces a gigantic increase in volume—and cooling. So, as the SCW flowed toward the base of the rupture, its pressure dropped and the vapor portion expanded and cooled to an extreme extent. [See “Rocket Science” on page 600.] As it expanded, it pushed on the surrounding fluid (gas and liquid), giving all fluid downstream ever increasing kinetic energy. As the horizontally flowing liquid-gas mixture began to flow upward through the rupture, the pressure steadily dropped in each bundle of supercritical fluid. This released its electrical ionization energy, and some of each liquid droplet evaporated to become vapor. Within seconds, portions of the flow rose above the atmosphere where the pressure was almost zero. This 10,000-fold expansion was a weeks-long, focused explosion of indescribable magnitude—“splitting” the atmosphere and accelerating much of the water, along with rock and dirt, into the vacuum of space. In summary, as the flood began, SCW jetted up through a globe-encircling rupture in the crust—as from a ruptured pressure cooker. This huge acceleration expanded the spacing between water molecules, allowing flash evaporation, sudden and extreme cooling, followed by even greater expansion, acceleration, and cooling. Therefore, most of the vast thermal, electrical, chemical, and surface energy in the subterranean water ended up not as heat at the earth’s surface but as extreme kinetic energy in all the fountains of the great deep.As you will see, these velocities were high enough to launch rocks into outer space—the final dumping ground for most of the energy in the SCW. |
- In The Beginning
There you have it. No miracles, just physics to explain how continents can slide great distances without boiling away the oceans.
Jose Fly
New member
But if you'll note in Baumgardner's article, the heat problem isn't just from the actual movements of continental plates (although it is one of the major sources). The other sources of heat include the cooling of the lithosphere and batholiths, neither of which can be alleviated with any sort of lubricant.
That makes no sense. A significant amount of the heat of the water comes from the simple physics of it being under the immense pressure at 60 miles below the surface.
Also, how did the water get into these areas in the first place? Were they empty before, and water later found its way in, or some other scenario?
What were these "pillars" made of such that they could be so elastic yet not fracture or weaken?
What exactly is causing these minerals to dissolve into the water? Did it ever reach equilibrium? When, and at what concentrations?
Until it's released, at which point it turns into super-heated steam and gives off crazy amounts of heat. Noah et al. would have been poached.
That's actually worse. Not only are you instantaneously releasing immense amounts of heat at the surface, you're also releasing it into the atmosphere.
Young-earth creationist Danny Faulkner looked into the "eruption phase" and concluded that the necessary release of heat would have been enough to completely cook everything on earth. (CLICK HERE)
No, it's actually worse. As has been shown, Brown hasn't even managed to convince his fellow young-earth creationists, and there are good reasons for that.
Shoot, even Walt Brown himself admits that the energy from just the eruption phase would be the equivalent of "1,800 trillion hydrogen bombs" (CLICK HERE, pg. 48)
Last edited:
Numerous misunderstandings in this post. Here's the most obvious one. Depressurization produces cold. The fountains were freezing, not scalding.
iouae
Well-known member
From the Abstract...
Abstract
This paper addresses briefly some of the major difficulties in attempting to understand and model the geological and tectonic change of the Paleozoic and Mesozoic portions of the rock record as occurring during the span of but a single year—the year of the biblical Flood. A relatively simple tectonic model is proposed that assumes a pre-Flood earth with a single supercontinent, an intact lithosphere (that is, a lithosphere not broken into plates), and a convecting mantle somewhat warmer than at present. The main energy source for the catastrophe is the gravitational potential energy of the cold, dense lithosphere relative to the warmer mantle below. At the onset of the catastrophe, the lithosphere fractures, and its oceanic portions sink and induce a flow throughout the mantle. Replacement of the pre-Flood oceanic lithosphere with hot, buoyant material from the mantle raises the sea level some 2,000 m. Flow in the mantle pulls the supercontinent apart and induces significant vertical tectonic motions—especially in areas where oceanic lithosphere is being subducted beneath continental regions. Results from a numerical simulation are presented.
I love it when theologians try to talk science.
The above is science fiction. The earth was never ripped apart from one intact supercontinent, into what we see today. So I don't even want to download what he has to say further.
If what he said were true, it would take more than "the gravitational potential energy of the cold, dense lithosphere relative to the warmer mantle below. At the onset of the catastrophe, the lithosphere fractures, and its oceanic portions sink and induce a flow throughout the mantle" to break up the earth.
A worldwide flood would not do this either.
It's all fiction, bad science fiction.
This is not representative of what we believe.
| A relatively simple tectonic model is proposed that assumes a pre-Flood earth with a single supercontinent, an intact lithosphere (that is, a lithosphere not broken into plates), and a convecting mantle somewhat warmer than at present. |
The Hydroplate theory has a very different set of assumptions.
Jose Fly
New member
LOL! Let's see your math.
There's quite a bit of overlap and both have many of the same problems and requirements for miracles.
Math?
Do you know how a fridge works?
Nope.
But feel free to keep railing against ideas nobody adheres to. :up:
Jose Fly
New member
Yes, math. How much water was in these caverns? What pressure was it under? From that, calculate the water's temperature. Then, if what you say is true, how much heat must be released in order for the water to reach the freezing point?
So were batholiths already in existence prior to the start of the release of water? If so, where were they?
That's all described in the book. However, if you're not interested in understanding how depressurization produces cold, there's not much point, is there?
No.
Jose Fly
New member
And you don't know what it is?
Oh by all means.....please explain how water goes from above the freezing point to freezing without releasing any heat in the process.
And that's one of the heat issues Baumgardner identifies in the paper I linked to.
All of that is answered here:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview6.html#wp33518130
What's the temperature difference between the numbers given in the above link and 32 degrees Fahrenheit (0 degrees Celsius)? :think:
Come on, what kind of question is that?
Edit: depressurizing any liquid will cool it. Bye bye heat issue.
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity2.html#wp23391343
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity3.html#wp34384978
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity5.html#wp33526706
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity7.html#wp33527606