I Love Jesus and I Accept Evolution

6days

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Alate One said:
Physical death for humans was a thing after sin. Nothing was said in the bible about animal death never happening, much less plant death, bacterial death, cellular death...
I think you have received some poor teaching. The Bible tells us that pain suffering and death exist in our world because of first Adam's sin. The curse applied to living creatures (nepesh chayyah). Plants are not living creatures. Plants were given for food Genesis 1:29

Of course God would not use pain, suffering, death and extinctions as His creative process. Scripture tells us death is the enemy. 1 Cor. 15:26
 

Alate_One

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Your skepticism just keeps on showing itself.

Jesus healed instantly. He brought dead people to life instantly. It didn't take millions/billions of years for his miracles to take place.
And Did got bring Jesus into the world instantly after the promise in Genesis? Did God bring Abraham's offspring into existence instantly when they were promised? Did God bring the nation of Israel to the promised land instantly when it was promised? Did Jesus return instantly (or even within 30 years) when He was promised to return "soon"? No. Because to God a thousand years is as a day and vice versa. You claim to "take Him at His word" yet I'm sure you don't believe in interpreting other parts of the Bible that are symbolic and poetic as literal. I'm sure you don't believe stars can literally fall to earth either.

People reading the Bible a thousand years ago thought it taught the earth was the center of the universe. They were taking the Bible "as it is" far more than you are. The problem is "as it is" when translated into a scientific culture, creates far more confusion than existed in the past.

Your stance on creation is a practical denial of Jesus life and miracles here on earth. You can keep on convincing yourself of what you say, but that isn't what counts. Truth is truth whether you believe and accept it or not.
See these posts for those that have said my view is fine. Interesting how many of you seem to agree. You create a stumbling block for would be Christians where none needs to exist.

By the way. Your reading of Ecclesiastes 3:11 rips it right out of it's context. It doesn't come close to meaning what you try to imply it means.
What do you think it means then?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
I think you have received some poor teaching. The Bible tells us that pain suffering and death exist in our world because of first Adam's sin. The curse applied to living creatures (nepesh chayyah). Plants are not living creatures. Plants were given for food Genesis 1:29
Plants are very much alive just as animals are. They breathe as well, albeit more slowly than animals. Of course the ancient Hebrews weren't aware of that, but it doesn't change that biological fact. Only higher vertebrates I guess are alive in this scheme? Are fish alive then?

Of course God would not use pain, suffering, death and extinctions as His creative process. Scripture tells us death is the enemy. 1 Cor. 15:26
If physical death is the greatest enemy, why didn't it stop after the death of Christ? God used pain, death and extinctions to create the nation of Israel in the promised land. Many instances of near annihilation are found in the Bible with a remnant being spared.
 

Stripe

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To God a thousand years is as a day and vice versa.

Darwinists love referencing II Peter, but they've never read it.

You claim to "take Him at His word" yet I'm sure you don't believe in interpreting other parts of the Bible that are symbolic and poetic as literal.

Darwinists have a real problem with simple English. Accepting the plain meaning incorporates an understanding of context. There is no double standard in insisting that the plain meaning is "six days" in Genesis, while "four corners" is not to be taken literally.

I'm sure you don't believe stars can literally fall to earth either.
I'm sure you have no idea what that passage is referring to.

People reading the Bible a thousand years ago thought it taught the earth was the center of the universe.

It is, though I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Sounds like something you made up

They were taking the Bible "as it is" far more than you are.
Where did the Bible say that the Earth is at the center of the universe?

Chapter and verse. :up:

The problem is "as it is" when translated into a scientific culture, creates far more confusion than existed in the past.

Only if you refuse to understand.

See these posts for those that have said my view is fine.

Your view is not fine. You falsely accuse others of inventing a new gospel and when corrected pretend that is support for what you preach.

Interesting how many of you seem to agree.

Only Darwinists are with you.

You create a stumbling block where none needs to exist.

Plants are ... alive just as animals are.
No, they aren't.

As a botanist, you should know that.

If physical death is the greatest enemy, why didn't it stop after the death of Christ?

It is appointed for man to die and then be judged.

God used pain, death and extinctions to create the nation of Israel in the promised land.
No, He didn't.

Many instances of near annihilation are found in the Bible with a remnant being spared.

Which does nothing to establish your assertion.
 
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6days

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Plants are very much alive just as animals are.
Plants are alive (by our definition) but not experiencing life and death by the Biblical definition of living being or a soul as the Hebrew words 'nepesh chayyah'.
Alate_One said:
Only higher vertebrates I guess are alive in this scheme?
Yes... it would seem only vertebrates are living beings /souls with consciousness and emotions. (Strongs definitions- a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion)
Alate_One said:
If physical death is the greatest enemy, why didn't it stop after the death of Christ?
Scripture tells us that we have death in our world because we live in a world cursed by sin. We are invited to be followers of Jesus and partake in the resurrection, since He defeated death. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Rev. 21:4
Alate_One said:
God used pain, death and extinctions to create the nation of Israel...
Of course... God can also use sickness, pain, death etc. to draw us to Himself because we live in a sin cursed world. But, Scripture portrays paradise as a place where the wolf and the lamb live together in harmony. Isaiah 65:25
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Darwinists have a real problem with simple English. Accepting the plain meaning incorporates an understanding of context. There is no double standard in insisting that the plain meaning is "six days" in Genesis, while "four corners" is not to be taken literally.
You have a real problem understanding that it wasn't written in plain English. :rolleyes:

The only reason you think four corners isn't literal and six days is literal, is you accept modern science that the earth is a sphere but not the science of the age of the earth or evolution. You're using science to decide what is literal and what isn't, just like everyone else.

No, they aren't.

As a botanist, you should know that.
Uhh what? :AMR: Are you seriously arguing plants aren't alive?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Of course... God can also use sickness, pain, death etc. to draw us to Himself because we live in a sin cursed world. But, Scripture portrays paradise as a place where the wolf and the lamb live together in harmony. Isaiah 65:25
I have read some scholars argue that the garden was a place of paradise, separate from the rest of the earth. It was what humans were to have spread all over the earth, after obtaining immortality from the tree of life, had they not failed in the garden.

Instead they were removed from the garden and sent into the harsher world. If the whole world was paradise, why was there a need for a garden?

If humans were immortal before sin, why was there a tree of life? They wouldn't have needed it unless they sinned.
 

Stripe

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You have a real problem understanding that it wasn't written in plain English.

Thank you, rabbi. :rolleyes:

The only reason you think four corners isn't literal and six days is literal, is you accept modern science that the earth is a sphere but not the science of the age of the earth or evolution.

Nope. Evolution is just a theory. The sooner you can stop asserting the truth of your religion, the sooner you can join a rational discussion. :up:

You're using science to decide what is literal and what isn't, just like everyone else.
You don't do that. So not "everybody else." :idunno:

Are you seriously arguing plants aren't alive?

You know exactly what we believe. Let us know when you're ready to respect an opposing view.
 

Stripe

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I have read some scholars argue that the garden was a place of paradise, separate from the rest of the earth. It was what humans were to have spread all over the earth, after obtaining immortality from the tree of life, had they not failed in the garden.

You shouldn't believe everything you read, and you definitely shouldn't introduce things we haven't asserted as if they were ours.

If the whole world was paradise, why was there a need for a garden?

It's this a serious question? Did you put any thought into it?

They wouldn't have needed it unless they sinned.

:AMR:

Why would God create a tree of life and not have it sustain life?

Are you just thinking about these things for the first time?
 

Stripe

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Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
II Peter 3:1-‬18 NKJV
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
You have a real problem understanding that it wasn't written in plain English. :rolleyes:

The only reason you think four corners isn't literal and six days is literal, is you accept modern science that the earth is a sphere but not the science of the age of the earth or evolution. You're using science to decide what is literal and what isn't, just like everyone else.

Uhh what? :AMR: Are you seriously arguing plants aren't alive?

I sure hope plants are alive!

:eek:
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
II Peter 3:1-‬18 NKJV

The underlined and italicized are emphasis mine.
 

JudgeRightly

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You have a real problem understanding that it wasn't written in plain English. :rolleyes:

You have a real problem understanding that "six days" means the same thing in any language, even in ancient Hebrew.

cdc372b1b461e6cb8bffad362d5d0d91.jpg


Strong's h8337

- Lexical: שֵׁשׁ
- Transliteration: shesh
- Part of Speech: Noun
- Phonetic Spelling: shaysh
- Definition: six (a cardinal number).
- Origin: Masculine shishshah {shish-shaw'}; a primitive number; six (as an overplus (see suws) beyond five or the fingers of the hand); as ord. Sixth.
- Usage: six((-teen, -teenth)), sixth.
- Translated as (count): six (136), and six (67), about six (4), for six (4), according to six (2), - (1), In six (1).

Strong's h3117

- Lexical: יוֹם
- Transliteration: yom
- Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
- Phonetic Spelling: yome
- Definition: day.
- Origin: From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb).
- Usage: age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... Live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.
- Translated as (count): day (306), days (245), the days (149), today (131), on the day (125), the day (120), in day (113), in the day (92), on day (73), this day (57), in the days (53), in days (46), the chronicles (37), And On the day (36), a day (34), as day (19), his days (17), the time (17), your days (17), by day (15), for days (15), forever (15), daily (14), in his days (13), of days (13), day long (11), my days (11), from the day (10), of the day (10), And in the days (9), continually (9), for the day (9), as in the days (8), at time (8), days' (8), Our days (8), a time (7), from day (7), their days (7), when (7), - (6), and the day (6), each day (6), on a day (6), since the days (6), the day long (6), and day (5), And the period (5), as long as (5), as the days (5), his day (5), in time (5), of the days (5), And in the day (4), as it is day (4), for day (4), for each day (4), from the days (4), in age (4), in years (4), in your days (4), life (4), one day (4), since the day (4), time (4), whole (4), yearly (4), according to the days (3), after days (3), And on day (3), as in the day (3), but day (3), but the day (3), every day (3), full (3), full years (3), like the days (3), of a day (3), of every day (3), of today (3), of your days (3), since the time (3), the same day (3), to the days (3), two days (3), year (3), years (3), a while (2), Age (2), all day (2), always (2), and by day (2), and days (2), And the time (2), as in days (2), as long (2), as of this day (2), as on the day (2), as the day (2), but on the day (2), from (2), from days (2), from year (2), in my days (2), in the time (2), now (2), Of day (2), of from day (2), of my days (2), of time (2), perpetually (2), that day (2), the day of (2), the yearly (2), then (2), to days (2), a daily (1), a days (1), a long time (1), a year (1), about (1), about the day (1), about the time (1), about time (1), according to the time (1), after (1), after a time (1), after a while (1), after some time (1), after two days (1), afternoon (1), ago (1), among the days (1), and (1), and a holiday (1), and as (1), and as long as (1), and as your days (1), and daily (1), and from day (1), and her days (1), and in days (1), and in your days (1), and like the days (1), and my days (1), and nevertheless in the day when (1), and the days (1), and today (1), and when (1), as (1), as at day (1), as at other times (1), as at the time (1), As in the days when (1), as long as I live (1), as this day (1), as time (1), as to a day (1), as you are day (1), at any time (1), at day (1), at once (1), awhile (1), before the day (1), but at time (1), but in the day (1), but on (1), but the (1), but the days (1), But when (1), but within days (1), by day by day (1), certain days (1), concerning the days (1), David (1), day by day (1), day still there (1), day's (1), days ago (1), during the time (1), each year (1), even this day (1), first (1), for (1), For a (1), for a time (1), for about a day (1), for daily (1), for one (1), for the days (1), for time (1), from the time (1), from times (1), Have since your days (1), he lives (1), her days (1), him who was in trouble (1), his daily (1), his time (1), in a day (1), in daylight (1), in the course (1), in the course of time (1), in the day when (1), in the days of (1), in their days (1), in weather (1), into day (1), like a day (1), like day (1), like the day (1), midday (1), much elder (1), nowadays (1), of (1), of as every day (1), of every (1), of my life (1), of old (1), of the time (1), of years (1), on his day (1), on its proper (1), on that day (1), on the day of (1), On the day when (1), On the days (1), on the same day (1), On this day (1), one year (1), or day (1), or on a day (1), over the day (1), per year (1), recently (1), regularly (1), remains (1), since (1), still daylight (1), than the day (1), that (1), that days (1), the age (1), the day of his (1), the days of (1), the days Yahweh (1), the evening (1), the full time (1), the life (1), the season (1), the while (1), the with day (1), their day (1), therefore as long as I live (1), these days (1), throughout your days (1), time on (1), to (1), to day (1), to determine the day (1), to the day (1), to year (1), two (1), Until the day (1), unto day (1), when the (1), Whenever (1), while (1), within days (1), year by (1), Yet from the days (1), you live (1), your day (1).
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Yes, we know you like to focus in on the details. This time, however, try to read the whole thing, and get the big picture for once.

The "big picture" might just be a lot bigger than you happen to think. Why do you suppose it was mentioned that time for God certainly wasn't limited to the human understanding of the linear? Humans are restricted by such but God isn't. Right?
 

JudgeRightly

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The "big picture" might just be a lot bigger than you happen to think. Why do you suppose it was mentioned that time for God certainly wasn't limited to the human understanding of the linear? Humans are restricted by such but God isn't. Right?

You're question begging.

Read the whole of what was quoted.

Then try to make the argument that the verse you tried to take ou of context has anything to do with God's understanding of time, instead of something else that is stated EXPLICITLY in the passage.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
You're question begging.

Read the whole of what was quoted.

Then try to make the argument that the verse you tried to take ou of context has anything to do with God's understanding of time, instead of something else that is stated EXPLICITLY in the passage.

I have and it smacks of symbolism rather than literalism. The explicit point about how time relates to God only underlines that.
 

6days

New member
I have read some scholars argue that the garden was a place of paradise, separate from the rest of the earth. It was what humans were to have spread all over the earth, after obtaining immortality from the tree of life, had they not failed in the garden.

Instead they were removed from the garden and sent into the harsher world. If the whole world was paradise, why was there a need for a garden?
Alate… It seems you keep jump from one argument to the next trying to justify your beliefs, rather than accept the plain words of Scripture. Genesis 2 tells us "Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food."
If humans were immortal before sin, why was there a tree of life? They wouldn't have needed it unless they sinned.
Your statement is a rejection of scripture, and seemingly a misunderstanding of why we need a Savior. Romans 5 tells us "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned"
BTW... We can only speculate, but perhaps the tree of life was something God would have allowed Adam and Eve to eat if they had not sinned, allowing them to live in permanent relationship with Himself. He then prevented them to eat after they sinned, to prevent them living eternally separated from Himself
 

Stripe

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Yes, we know you like to focus in on the details. This time, however, try to read the whole thing, and get the big picture for once.

It's ironic that in a passage that admonishes believers to heed the words of the prophets, a self-proclaimed Christian would highlight a single sentence in a failed bid to undermine what the prophets plainly wrote.
 
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