The only problem I have with you right now is that you refuse to respond to my posts except to merely repeat your position and to pretend like I haven't answered your questions.
I have a question about observing God’s commands in light of New Testament scriptures
- Thread starter Jacob
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The only problem I have with you right now is that you refuse to respond to my posts except to merely repeat your position and to pretend like I haven't answered your questions.
You'd do well to listen!
It is irrelevant what you believe in this regard! This is just not a matter of opinion. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)
If you have Christ you do not need the Law and if you return too it, Christ will profit you nothing.
The only people the Law has anything to say to are those who are NOT in Christ (i.e. the whole unbelieving world). But if you are in Him then you have fulfilled the Law in Him! Not only that but it is the Law that executed you in Him! You have been crucified with Christ! What more is there for the Law to do once it's executed you? NOTHING!
As I said in my initial response to your opening post, you will not find a satisfactory answer to this question unless and until you begin to rightly divide the word of truth. I invite you to reread that post.
In an effort to further establish that we absolutely should NOT obey the Law or any part of it, I offer the following for you to consider...
The Law is the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Hereafter The TKGE).
The TKGE was the first manifestation of law to the human race.
Genesis 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Note that the Tree ministered death.
In fact there are two things in the bible that have a ministry of death...
The TKGE’s ministry is one of death. Partaking of it yields death (Gen. 2:17)
Paul calls the Ten Commandments “the ministry of death”
“…the ministry of death was written and engraved on stones…” (2 Corinthians 3:7)
The entire 3rd chapter of 2 Corinthians is all about contrasting the law with the Spirit. Paul teaches the “the letter (i.e. the law) kills but the Spirit give life”. 2 Corinthians 3:6; Romans 7:6
God said of the TKGE, “In the day that you partake of it, you shall surely die” (Gen 2:17) and He could have warned of the law with the very same words, “In the day you partake of the law, you shall surely die.”...
Romans 7:8b For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
13 …sin, was producing death in me through what is good (i.e. the law; see v. 12), so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
13 …sin, was producing death in me through what is good (i.e. the law; see v. 12), so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
Seven biblical parallels between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law...
The Tree:
- The Tree is the ministry of death. Gen 2:17
- Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 2:17
- In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17
- By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22
- The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17
- The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom 5:18-19
- The Tree of Life is in the new heaven, but not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Ezek. 31:15; Rev. 22:14
The Law:
- The law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7
- Do not partake of the law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4
- In the day you partake of the law, you will die. Rom. 7:9
- By the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:7
- The law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20
- The law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16
- The Law of the Spirit is in the new heaven, but not the Law of Death. Rom. 8:2; 7:6
Now the above represents about a third of the material included in a Sunday School lesson I prepared on the topic. It hits just the high points but does a good job of communicating the point. You don't need the Law any more than you need to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and for the same reasons. The whole Christian faith is about life, not death! It's about faith, not flesh! You don't need to, nor are you even capable of controlling your flesh - kill it - in Him - by faith! That's the gospel of grace in a nutshell.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. I'd be remiss if I didn't give proper credit to Bob Enyart and his brilliant book, "The Plot"!
If you haven't read that book, you don't understand the bible. It's that good. Read it!
Love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself and you'll fulfil the main commandments and Paul said it best that observances and rituals are a personal choice and that if you force a vegetarian to eat meat you cause him to stumble in his own path.
It's up to you bro
It's up to you bro
Well, not exactly. "It's up to you" is not at all the correct idea. The teaching is to not violate your conscience. If you have been deceived or otherwise taught that tithing is required, for example, and you refuse to do so in opposition to your conscience then you are sinning. Not because tithing is required but because you are doing something you believe to be evil (or refusing to do something you believe to be good).
If you believe it to be evil, even in error, that it is wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols then you sin by so eating. But meat sacrificed to a god that doesn't exist is identical to any other meat. It hasn't magically become "evil meat", it's one's beliefs that are good or evil. It's a heart issue, not a legal one and correct teaching frees one from such error. The same person who sinned by eating on Tuesday can be free to eat without guilt on Wednesday if his error is corrected. What has changed? Not the meat and not the law but his understanding and therefore his conscience.
Resting in Him,
Clete
beameup
New member
All I'm saying is that the "veil is being lifted". Messianic congregations are growing exponentially in Israel. Ironically, Israel law actually protects them because they are Jews genetically and can no longer be "stoned to death" for believing in Yeshuah. :thumb:
How long before the Body of Christ is removed (harpazo)?? I don't know, but things are moving rather quickly in that direction. Who knows what "discoveries" yet lie buried in Israel?? Perhaps the Ark? Maybe a 2nd Century BC copy of the Septuagint? Only God knows.
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Do you understand that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets? Do you agree that the Law has not been abolished?
You have a lot here, and being that I think your first mistake is where you speak of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, whether you believe it to be God's Law, the Law of Moses, or the commandment in the Garden of Eden (I believe these are all wrong views), I don't know how to help you with the rest of your post. I realize you are trying to help me, but alas this is where I think your error is. At least for now.
In a nutshell, Clete is showing through scripture that the law is a death sentence that pronounces all as guilty, just as partaking of the TKGE (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) is a death sentence.
Romans 8:3 KJV
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 3:19-21 KJV
(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Without the TKGE, Adam was naked and not ashamed of his nakedness.
With the TKGE, Adam was naked and ashamed of his nakedness.
Or as Paul explains .....
Romans 7:8-9 KJV
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
I made a purely biblical argument, Jacob. Not one percent of what I presented is anything other than straight out of the word of God itself. And I have a lot more, not the least of which has to do with why Jesus died "on a tree" (Gal. 3:13) and what happened to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and why and what happened as a result. All of which is in your bible plain as day and you've never heard a thing about it.
Its clear that you are either unwilling or unable to debate it and so I'm not really sure why you brought it up in the first place but it explains some of your previous posts. I won't push the topic any further. If nothing else, I've planted a seed. If you want to discuss it further or have a question about anything I've said, feel free to ask me any time.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Well it is similar, I grant you. But you seemed to be suggesting that one can simply decide for themselves that they want to following the Mosaic Law and that would be a perfectly fine thing to do. It's not a perfectly fine thing to do. It's a very damaging and far reaching error that desperately needs correcting. There is nothing of Old Testament observance or any other observance of any sort of law that a Christian must keep for righteousness sake. If you are in Christ, you are already righteous and cannot be otherwise.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I didn't think he was asking for Righteousness sake 
just whether or not he can follow observances and yes he can and is free to do so and if he is trying to find righteousness at the end he won't and it will be a good journey because he will then ask "Where can I find righteousness?" realise it was there all along and enter into it. But I didn't think that's what he was asking
just whether or not he can follow observances and yes he can and is free to do so and if he is trying to find righteousness at the end he won't and it will be a good journey because he will then ask "Where can I find righteousness?" realise it was there all along and enter into it. But I didn't think that's what he was asking
I didn't think he was asking for Righteousness sake
You are mistaken, I assure you. There isn't any other reason to follow such observances in the first place and no, he is not "free to do so" anyway.
Look, if you believe, for example, that it is wrong not to give ten percent of your income to the church, then you are stuck in a trap! By tithing you become a debtor to keep the whole law and Christ will profit you nothing because you are operating in the flesh rather than by faith. And conversely, the person who thinks its wrong not to tithe and does not do it, violates his own conscience and thereby sins. Catch 22!
You're quite right that his desired goal will be denied and such failure has it's ministry but that doesn't mean it isn't an error or that its okay and that he's "free to do it". Paul spent basically his entire ministry telling us not to place ourselves under the law. We are not free to simply ignore him and to do it anyway.
To put it the terms germane to this thread, God, through Paul, told us not to place ourselves under the law. We are to obey God!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Paul describes it to the Romans but unfortunately theology has hijacked that one cos Paul is trying to describe the difference between someone who uses the law and someone set free by the Spirit and unfortunately the person he uses is himself. It's like he says Look at it this way, I am a sinner trying to save myself by the law and what I find is the law makes me sin, wet paint do not touch, oh wretched man that I am for I always touch the paint and it was the same predicament of the Roman church who were using the law for justification and righteousness and he's saying will I find it in the Law? No but thanks to God it is a gift of grace. He asks how shall we be set free from this effort and trying? By Christ and faith in God's work set free by the Spirit of God
cos Paul is trying to describe the difference between someone who uses the law and someone set free by the Spirit and unfortunately the person he uses is himself. It's like he says Look at it this way, I am a sinner trying to save myself by the law and what I find is the law makes me sin, wet paint do not touch, oh wretched man that I am for I always touch the paint and it was the same predicament of the Roman church who were using the law for justification and righteousness and he's saying will I find it in the Law? No but thanks to God it is a gift of grace. He asks how shall we be set free from this effort and trying? By Christ and faith in God's work set free by the Spirit of God
Romans 7:7 NASB - 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Thank you for the open invitation. I must tell you I have read the Bible. May you grow in your understanding. Shalom.
Galatians 3 KJV
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
My point is that the Law is not sin while eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was.
Adam was naked before and after the TKGE.
He was not ashamed of his nakedness till after the TKGE.
Galatians 3:18-24 KJV
(18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(20) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.