Homeschooling Opponents

Mark Tindall

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docrob57 said:
Hoemschooling represents one of the greatest threats to the left that it has ever encountered. Educated kids being raised outside the propaganda loop.

To be outside the propaganda loop one would need to be outside the right wing loony loop!

Christians are from all sides of the political spectrum. The right wing fundamentalists stuck in the current Fundamentalist Dark Age seem to think usury is more important that truth. The lack of compassion for the poor in right wing Christian groups is appalling. Another reason why such groups should not be in charge of homeschooling children. Jesus emphasised justice and compassion and all his punishment stories were aimed at how people treated the poor. Homeschooling is not suited to poor uneducated families. Read Paulo Freire's "Pedagogy Of The Oppressed" and read the works of Martin Luther King.
 

Mark Tindall

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kmoney said:
What standards are homeschoolers held to?

In some states in the USA NONE! That is the worry! In NSW Oz, where i come from, The Board of Studies ensure that every child has a minimum standard of education that must be met.

How good was the homeschooling at the People's Temple or at Jonestown? Should such crazies be allowed to homeschool?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Testing the Boundaries of Parental Authority Over Education:The Case of
Homeschooling

This essay is included in:political and Moral Education, NOMOS XLIII,
Stephen Macedo and Yael Tamir, eds., NewYork: New York University Press,
2002.

An extended version of the essay is included as chapter six in: Rob Reich,
Bridging Liberalism and Multiculturalism in American EducationUniversity of
Chicago Press, 2002.

Rob ReichDepartment of Political ScienceStanford University

pp 34 ff

......

IV. Conclusion: Regulating Homeschooling

It is worth exploring briefly the kinds of regulations the state might
promulgate and some likely problems with such regulations. Over the past
decade, as I noted in the firstsection, the regulations on homeschooling
have eased dramatically and, where they exist,
are often unenforced. Whereas some states once forbade homeschooling, its
practice is now legal everywhere, with actual regulations varying
significantly from state to state. Such regulations have included
requirements that parents be certified teachers or have a collegedegree,
that parents submit a curricular plan to local educational authorities for
review, that parents administer standardized tests to their children in
order to gauge their academic progress, that school officials make periodic
visits to homeschools to evaluate the educational progress of children, that
parents keep attendance records and meet a minimumnumber of days in school
or hours spent learning, and/or that parents submit regular reportsto local
educational authorities.

The fact that regulations have diminished and in some cases disappeared, and
the increasing prevalence of wholly unregulated homeschools, is cause
forconcern. The state must indeed regulate homeschools in order to assure
that its and the child's interests in education are met.

What regulations are most appropriate to this task?

Regulations are properly amatter of democratic politics, not deduction from
theory, but at a bare minimum, I imaginethe following will be necessary.

First, the state must require that any homeschooling parents register their
homeschools with
local educational authorities, who in turn should berequired to collect this
information and report it to the state. Such action will allow states
tocollect more accurate data on homeschooling, help make decisions about how
to distribute resources for homeschoolers, and enable simplified
communication between school leadersand homeschooling parents. At the
moment, since many parents have never notified districts of their
homeschooling intentions and arrangements, states have few means toregulate
such parents. By requiring registration with local officials, the state can
more effectively distinguish between truants and homeschooled children.

Second, the burden of proof that homeschools will satisfy the state's and
the child's interest in education must restwith the parents who express the
desire to homeschool. Parents must demonstrate to relevant education
officials that their particular homeschooling arrangements are up to
determined educational standards. Aligning the burden with parents is
important, because if the homeschooling arrangements were presumed to be
satisfactory unless the state were to show otherwise, the state would have
to resort to difficult and intrusive means to make sucha case. Especially in
light of the number of homeschooled students today, school officials cannot
be expected personally or closely to monitor the activities of all
homeschools.

Third, because the state must ensure that the school environment provides
exposure to and engagement with values and beliefs other than those of a
child's parents, the state should require parents to use curricula that
provide such exposure and engagement. I imagine that parents could satisfy
such a regulation in a variety of ways: they could submit their curriculum
for review to local school officials, they could choose curricular materials
from astate-approved list, they could allow their children to take periodic
assessments that would measure their success in examining and reflecting
upon diverse worldviews. Surely other methods are possible.

And fourth, the state should require homeschooled children to take annual
standardized tests to measure academic progress. If a child repeatedly fails
to makeacademic progress relative to his or her peers in public or private
schools, the state should intervene and compel school
attendance.

This short list of regulations is tentative and provisional, for I am unsure
about the most effective way to craft regulations pursuant to meeting the
state's and the child's interest. It is far easier to point out the problems
with regulating homeschooling.

Foremost among these is that religiously motivated homeschooling parents may
simply reject the very notion of submitting to a secular authority over
matters concerning the upbringing of their children.It is not that deeply
religious parents refuse to acknowledge the power of the state generally,
for such a position in a liberal democracy would be clearly untenable.
Rather, the problemarises when secular state authority is exercised over the
rearing of children. Conflict between the state and religious parents on
this score may be endemic and inevitable. On my view, even given the deep
importance of religious freedom, the state cannot relinquish its regulatory
role in education in cases where parents invoke their religious beliefs as a
bulwark against
secular authority.

Another problem with regulation is that the supposed beneficiaries of
educational regulation - children - are not politically organized and are
therefore incapable ofadvocating for their own interests in the policy and
legislative arenas. In contrast, homeschooling parents in
recent years have been exceptionally powerful lobbyists for their interests
at the grassroots, state, and federal level. Following the lead of the
ChristianCoalition, homeschool parents have banded together into networks of
advocacy organizations, and they are able to flood representatives' offices
with phone calls and mailon short notice in order to urge or kill the
passage of specific bills. In the face of suchorganized advocacy, the lack
of any comparable lobbying effort on behalf of children'sinterests means
that homeschool groups representing parental interests will likely continue

According to a recent news article, Pennsylvania Congressman Bill
Goodling, who chairs the HouseCommittee on Education and the Workforce, has
called homeschoolers "the most effective education lobbyon Capitol Hill"
(Daniel Golden, "Home Schoolers Learn How to Gain Clout Inside the Beltway,"
TheWall Street Journal, April 24, 2000, A1). to lessen and erase
regulations. The problem, it must be stressed, goes beyond the
recentpolitical efficacy of homeschool parent groups; it appears to be
built-in to the politicalprocess of enacting regulations. Because children
are a politically inert group, regulationsin their interest must be defended
by other organizations, such as the Children's DefenseFund, which typically
have less at stake in homeschooling, or by state officials, who are ofcourse
responsible for a much broader children's agenda than guarding against
homeschooling abuses. Thus, successful regulatory action is likely to
be stimulated onlywhen the homeschool parent lobby loses its power and/or
comparably powerful children's advocacy groups decide to press specifically
for homeschooling oversight

A third problem with regulating homeschooling is what Cass Sunstein labels
the overregulation - underregulation paradox. The idea is that aggressive
statutory controls designed to maintain strict compliance often result in
practice in under-enforcement or minimal regulations. When regulations are
many and elaborate, they often require significant spending, time, and human
resources in order to enforce them. I can imaginethis paradox at work in
homeschooling regulations quite easily. Given the numbers ofhomeschoolers,
local school authorities need to devote their time and energy to
trackingparents and children who have opted out of the public school system.
To the already harried educators, spending
significant time or devoting significant resources to tracking homeschools
may seem wasteful. After all, by removing their children from public
schools, parents in effect reduce the public system's funding. Moreover, the
very idea of making periodic home visits or meeting with parents to assess
curricular materials and monitor educational progress can be unappealing.
Being a truant officer or homeschool monitor issurely among the more
thankless jobs in society.The overregulation - underregulation paradox can
be mitigated by placing theburden of proof on parents to demonstrate that
homeschools will meet the educational interests of the state and the child.
But it does not remove it entirely.

It appears, therefore, sensible to keep regulations strict but minimal and
as non-intrusive as possible.In the past few years, another and very
different regulatory problem has arisen.Some parents who homeschool their
children wish to avail themselves and their children of the resources of the
local public school -- extracurricular activities and sports teams, the
library, computers, and internet facilities, guidance from school teachers
on
curricular matters, and in some cases select academic offerings. Most state
laws currently make it difficult for parents to claim such resources as a
right; homeschoolers are assumed to have exited the public school system and
thereby foregone the resources it has to offer. As thenumber of homeschooled
children continue to grow, this is likely to become a new frontier in
homeschool legal battles. Some school districts have adopted a conciliatory
approach and have set up offices to provide curricular and pedagogical
resources for homeschooling families, and to facilitate connections with
school activities. But the administrative burdens placed on public school
teachers and administrators to allow homeschool parents selectively to
choose the resources that the public school has to offer are undoubtedly
large, and they distract needed attention from the regular students in the
classroom. It is possible that technological advances will mitigate these
burdens by
permitting wholly new ways of providing and distributing information. At
least one district has set up what it calls a "virtualcharter school", where
it offers homeschooling families via the internet the guidance of public
school teachers, standardized testing, career counseling, real-time chats
with teachers and students, and the purchasing power of the district. The
avowed purpose of the virtual charter school is to lure families that had
deserted public schools to re-connect with public education.

Though some might worry that continued development on this front heralds an
era of education where the public school is essentially a provider of a menu
of services and activities from which parents choose what they want, the new
technology also can serve to connect people back with the campus-based
school in different ways. There are a host of open questions about the
consequences of homeschool-public school partnerships, but to the extent
that bringing children back within a campus-based school environment
conduces to meeting the interests of the state and the child in education -
especially to the extent that it brings children into social and
intellectual contact with other children of diversebackgrounds - such
partnerships should not be summarily dismissed or discouraged. Infact,
finding ways to draw homeschooling families back to the public school system
seemsto me a necessary complement to the passage of effective regulations.
Paul Hill, for example, believes that as more and more people homeschool,
most homeschooling families will form networks that will come to resemble
regular schools.
 

Mark Tindall

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sentientsynth said:
exac-a-tic-a-ly

This is a war over the minds of our children.

SS


It would seem that some homeschoiolers don't want children to use their minds but would rather have them brainwashed in the psuedoscience of creationism, read censored books, listen to kitchy Jesus jingles, think art is a Christian Bumper Sticker and never experience anything outside the Fundamentalist Dark Age.

Christians should be concerned about ensuring that ALL children have a decent education. Indoctrination into fundamentalist ratbaggery is not an education.
 

Mark Tindall

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docrob57 said:
The same standardized tests, etc. everyone else is, and they tend to crush the opposition!!

Absolute ratbaggery!

Most homeschoolers are not tested. You forget that in half the homeschools in the USA there is NO regulation whatsover. One can homeschool in any nonsense.
 

Mark Tindall

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docrob57 said:
Well you do testing as part of the curriculum. There are lots of different curriculum options. We use A Beka, which is a very popular one for Christian homeschoolers, but there are lots of them. They usually give guidance as to testing,etc.

As I have often quoted on mesc Assessment and Evaluartion are both parts of "testing" buit if you don't know the difference (which most homeschoolers don't!) then you are not really finding out anything of value about the child. The test from books are made up by professional teachers such as myself (in some cases)in other cases they are poorly education graduates from some Christian academy with poor knowledge about education and test construction.

A Christian school hired me to update their science curriculum. I did so. The first thing I did was throw out the Beka books on which their abysmal science program was based. It was based on the psuedoscience of creationism instead of real science. It was completely USA oriented without reference to Australia. It was all textbook work rather discoverey learning. It was even no use to hang on the back of the outside dunny door to wipe your bum with ... the poor quality ink is cancerous!

http://k6.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/

This NSW Board of Studies site provides syllabus and support material for
parents of children in kindergarten through to year 6. For parents keen to
learn more about what their kids are up to in their primary education years,
there's a range of resources to download such as syllabus information
(available for all subjects) and advice documents on how to support your
child's learning

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

High school material available at http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/

Much better than the crappy Robinson Self-Teaching Home School Curriculum

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robinson Self-Teaching Home School Curriculum

- TOTALLY dependent upon good literacy skills to begin with.
- Lock-step without any deviation from the program.
- 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica used - outdated and too complicated for
younger readers
- 1913 Webster's Dictionary used - outdated and too complicated for younger
readers
- Science texts instead of hands on experimentation and disvcovery learning.
- Original King James Version of the Bible - outdated and language too
complicated for any child of any age
-Phonics only without the addition of whole language approach, etc.
- Claims to be "self-teaching" but pupils require interaction with at least
one other person - a teacher.

This "box:" is the lazy person's way of homeschooling and not worth the
money you will outlay for it.

Visit the utter shite at
http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p45.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

ebenz47037

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Strooth said:
That's me! 30 years experience in education K-12 & Adult ... and have helped many homeschoolers in my time. When in trouble they come to professional educators.

Well, welcome back, Mark. I'm glad to see you here, honestly.

What a load of shite! At least be truthful. Anyone who disagrees at misc.education.home-school.christian (mehsc) is labelled a troll ...ESPECIALLY if they know something about education ... and ESPECIALLY if they are professional teachers. They are some of the most ignorant people I have ever met.

Let me explain why I thought this (and, to be truthful, I've never called you a troll on meh-sc). I've watched you try to open discussion with your articles on meh-sc. When people (Kangamom, Chris Barnes, Paul Danaher, etc) have tried to talk to you civilly, yet disagreeing with your statements, you've gotten angry with them. Even when an atheist (Michael S. Morris) tried to talk to you civilly, you stated (and I quote), "<snippeth more verbose Mowwith danth .... oopeth! .... nothing of value
lefteth!>" or ""I deem not this mob worthy that I should defend myself before them." - Polycarp, Martyrium Polycarpi". That's not debate, Mark. :nono:

Another load of shite! I said that the rabid ratbags on misc.education.home-school.christian (mehsc) weren't like the intelligent homeschoolers that I've met in Australia who can debate the pros AND CONS of homeschooling.

Why? How are they not like the "intelligent homeschoolers" you've met? Could it be because they've watched you post anti-homeschooling articles for about two years?

The reason I invited you here two years ago was because I was hoping to show you that all public schools are not the same and all homeschoolers are not the same. I thought that you understood that back then, when you left. I guess not.

I am an intelligent and artistic Exiled Believer who no longer believes in the Fundamentalist Dark Age agenda put forth by the majority of TOL. My theology is closer to that of Borg, Crossan, Spong, Armstrong, Cupitt and other more liberal minded Christians.


There are plenty of intelligent and artistic people here, believers and non-believers, just as there are on meh-sc. All you have to do is read some of the posts in the religion and politics section to see the large pool of people we have here. Most of them don't post about homeschooling.

I'm back and ready to debate on the CONS of Christian homeschooling ... of which there are many. I was chosen by the Australian Baptist Union to speak on the pros and CONS of Christian schooling at opne of their annual Celebrations in the early 90s because other Christian teachers didn't think there were any cons! I also helped write the manual for setting up Christian Community Schools around Australia.

I have no problem discussing the cons of homeschooling. Although I'm very pro-homeschooling, I'm more for the rights of the parents to choose how to educate their children. I know that there are people who are not (or think they're not) cut out to homeschool their children. I've taught the children of such people.

If I am about to be censored or called a troll (as is usual at misc.education.home-school.christian (mehsc)) or claimed to be irrelevant because I am not a "Trew Kristyun" then I am likely to ignore you.

The only time we censor here, at TOL, is when someone uses profanity. We don't change the content of the post; we will edit profanity. If you cannot talk without using profanity, you will want to remember that.

My extensive uni studies include teaching, education, philosophy and theology.

I'm working my through these posts.

I will catch up with you throughout the next few days (probably through the weekend). I will not be home long, tomorrow. So, I will answer a few tonight, a few tomorrow night, and hopefully be finished by Friday.

Thanks for coming back, Mark!
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
ebenz47037 said:
Then, he proceeds to describe good homeschooling, or at least his idea of it. He wants there to be educational requirements for all homeschoolers. He thinks that curriculum should be dictated by the board of education.

Like Indiana? I wonder if our requirements would be as fluid as the PS's. I caught a blurb about someone suggesting homeschoolers should have to take the standardized tests. I laughed at that. Can you imagine? One year and it would be over. PS would look so bad they would burn the tests and forget it ever happened.

I got the guy to come to TOL for a short while. But, when he realized that homeschooling and schools, in general, are different in the US than they are in Australia, he left. I've tried to get him to come back, but he says that TOL's nothing but a bunch of fundamentalists and he has no interest in coming back. So, I decided that I'm going to ask his permission to copy and paste some of his articles here to get some input from anyone who may be interested.

: laughing :

Wasn't Eiranne the last poster who claimed to be getting his degree in eduction? :ha: He really should come back if only to defend his profession :D

I will keep you all up to date on what he may or may not say about this.

Cool! And thanks for this thread :)

January 3rd, 2006, 04:22 PM

:jessilu: turned sixteen today.

Happy belated :jessilu: :eek:
 

ebenz47037

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Nineveh said:
Like Indiana? I wonder if our requirements would be as fluid as the PS's. I caught a blurb about someone suggesting homeschoolers should have to take the standardized tests. I laughed at that. Can you imagine? One year and it would be over. PS would look so bad they would burn the tests and forget it ever happened.

Well, Nineveh, he's back. Strooth is the gentleman I was talking about in that post. Although I don't necessarily agree with him, I'm glad he came back to discuss homeschooling with us.

: laughing :

Wasn't Eiranne the last poster who claimed to be getting his degree in eduction? :ha: He really should come back if only to defend his profession :D

Oh! I hope not. Eireann was one of the only posters on TOL to ever really get under my skin.

Cool! And thanks for this thread :)

Well, I don't need to update anyone. He's here now. And, you're quite welcome. :)
 

ebenz47037

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Strooth said:
To be outside the propaganda loop one would need to be outside the right wing loony loop!

Christians are from all sides of the political spectrum. The right wing fundamentalists stuck in the current Fundamentalist Dark Age seem to think usury is more important that truth. The lack of compassion for the poor in right wing Christian groups is appalling. Another reason why such groups should not be in charge of homeschooling children. Jesus emphasised justice and compassion and all his punishment stories were aimed at how people treated the poor. Homeschooling is not suited to poor uneducated families. Read Paulo Freire's "Pedagogy Of The Oppressed" and read the works of Martin Luther King.

You could say the same thing about homeschoolers, Mark. Homeschoolers are from all sides of the political spectrum. There are right-wing fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers and there are left-wing atheist homeschoolers. There are rich, educated people who homeschool their children and there are poor and "uneducated, (no college)" as you say, people who homeschool their children.

As far as right-wing Christian groups and compassion goes, you see all shades in there as well. I'm a right-wing Christian who believes in helping people. Most of the right-wing Christians I know are the same way. You, like many others, cannot judge the whole group by some that you may have met in your life.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
ebenz47037 said:
Well, Nineveh, he's back. Strooth is the gentleman I was talking about in that post. Although I don't necessarily agree with him, I'm glad he came back to discuss homeschooling with us.

Yes! I just now caught up with the thread :) I'm glad he is here! :wave: Mark :)

Oh! I hope not. Eireann was one of the only posters on TOL to ever really get under my skin.

He was a very good reason to keep kids out of public school :)

Well, I don't need to update anyone. He's here now. And, you're quite welcome. :)

This thread seems to get better every day :)
 

Mark Tindall

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ebenz47037 said:
I've watched you try to open discussion with your articles on meh-sc. When people (Kangamom, Chris Barnes, Paul Danaher, etc) have tried to talk to you civilly, yet disagreeing with your statements, you've gotten angry with them.

This has a history from a few years ago when I stumbled onto the newsgroup. Google to find out how these people treat people who disagree with them ... including contacting one's ISP, forging one's signature and obnoxious ad hominems ... including attacks against my wife. That is not acceptable then, now or ever. I therefore choose who i discuss thi8ngs with and what I answer and what I ignore.


ebenz47037 said:
(Michael S. Morris)

An obnoxious verbose brat and time waster. I don't discuss things with time wasters.

"I deem not this mob worthy that I should defend myself before them." - Polycarp, Martyrium Polycarpi".


ebenz47037 said:
How are they not like the "intelligent homeschoolers" you've met?

They do not acknowledge the downside of homeschooling and are not honest and truthful about the problems associated with it. They act like a cult. Read Ronald M Enroth's "Churches That Abuse"


ebenz47037 said:
Could it be because they've watched you post anti-homeschooling articles for about two years?

Impossible because I have posted for two years! I posted for a few weeks a few years again and have started reposting after Jayne was bullying (and lying about) one of my mates in another forum.

Intelligent people acknowledge BOTH sides of the issue. I am posting more about the cons of homeschooling to provide a balance. The homeschoolers I've met acknowledge the cons and are grateful for input by professional educators to help them overcome such difficulties. That is NOT the case with the cult like meh-sc.
 

Mark Tindall

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kmoney said:
ok thanks, :thumb: I'm just trying to understand how homeschooling works. I obviously wasn't homeschooled so I don't completely understand how students are evaluated to know when they have passed each grade etc.

That's a BIG problem for homerschoolers who do not know the differencve between evaluation and assesment!!!!

Evaluation places a value on a product and is subjective. This is like speaking about why one likes Mozart's work. It is a descriptive method based on narrative and argument.

Assessment is ensuring that a task can be done and is referenced and checked against set criteria (written by an educational professional). It is demonstrable and as objective as possible. (In reality, as philosophy acknowledges, there is nothing that is totally objective.) The assessment is either a "can do" or a "can't do".

Neither of the above has a numerical score.

Most "tests" set in books (with numerical scores) are merely an exercise in English comprehension and don't really assess anything. (Like IQ test merely testing the ability to do IQ tests.) A quarter of all the answers in a written test can be found in other questions.

So ... one of the first things a homeschooler should know is the difference between objective and subective "testing" and which is suitable for what areas in a curriculum.

Maths is easy to assess but art is much more difficult. Some poarts of art are assessable (eg technique) but appreciation is very much an evaluation.
 

Mark Tindall

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docrob57 said:
That's good, though I think it is good to get some practice with standardized testing. We are just starting with homeschooling. So I am no expert.

Standardised testing requires an environment that homeschoolers may not be giving.

Unless ALL the requirements of administering the test is followed the result is not valid. There is no way of knowing whether homeschoolers are administering the test correctly.

Professional teachers ARE experts on how to do this.
 

ebenz47037

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Strooth said:
This has a history from a few years ago when I stumbled onto the newsgroup. Google to find out how these people treat people who disagree with them ... including contacting one's ISP, forging one's signature and obnoxious ad hominems ... including attacks against my wife. That is not acceptable then, now or ever. I therefore choose who i discuss thi8ngs with and what I answer and what I ignore.

I'll have to google it. I know about someone contacting your ISP (I think that was a couple of people, actually.). By forging your signature, are you talking about Bob using your user name after you changed it several times to avoid the e-mail/newsgroup blockers people had set up? I don't remember anything said about your wife, good or bad. But, like I said, I will google it later.

I don't have a problem with whether you choose to discuss/debate things with people or not. I was making a point about how you complained about no one wanting to debate homeschooling with you and now you won't debate them at all.

An obnoxious verbose brat and time waster. I don't discuss things with time wasters.

"I deem not this mob worthy that I should defend myself before them." - Polycarp, Martyrium Polycarpi".

Okay. I won't get into that. I've come to care a great deal for the people at meh-sc. I've been posting there since before my husband passed away.

They do not acknowledge the downside of homeschooling and are not honest and truthful about the problems associated with it. They act like a cult. Read Ronald M Enroth's "Churches That Abuse"

I've seen several of them acknowledge that homeschooling isn't for everyone. You say they are not honest and truthful about the problems associated with homeschooling. Has it occurred to you that most of us haven't experienced the problems that you say you've seen? Most of the posters on meh-sc are in North America (Canada and the US). School systems vary from country to country. Are you willing to acknowledge that there may be some problems with public school, Mark?


Impossible because I have posted for two years! I posted for a few weeks a few years again and have started reposting after Jayne was bullying (and lying about) one of my mates in another forum.

I know nothing about the deal with Jayne. I stayed out of that discussion on purpose. In fact, I tend to stay out of any cross-posted discussions there. I don't usually read them, even.

Intelligent people acknowledge BOTH sides of the issue. I am posting more about the cons of homeschooling to provide a balance. The homeschoolers I've met acknowledge the cons and are grateful for input by professional educators to help them overcome such difficulties. That is NOT the case with the cult like meh-sc.


I have no problem with you talking about the cons of homeschooling (as I stated in my previous post to you). Don't you realize that there are cons to public school as well, though? I thought you did when we discussed the issue of homeschooling here a couple of years ago.

I've been homeschooling for eight years (except for one semester after my husband passed away and one semester when I taught Spanish in a Christian school) now. The public school in my area hasn't changed for the better. In fact, parents of current students (friends of my daughter's) are always complaining about the lack of discipline and learning in the school all the time. The test scores for this school are among the lowest in the surrounding three states. Teen pregnancies are up and violence among students is up. This is just my local school I'm talking about. And, it's in a rural area! My choices for my daughter's educational opportunities, right now, are either to send her to this public school, homeschool her, send her to a private school (which I cannot afford), or send her to another district's public school for the cost of private school tuition. Both, my daughter and I, have chosen homeschooling for her education, right now.
 

Mark Tindall

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ebenz47037 said:
You can go to hslda.org to check out the laws for each state. IMHO, Indiana has the best laws in the lower 48. :angel: All I have to do, according to the state is to keep attendance in case I'm asked.


This means that there is no way of knowing the quality of homeschooling in every homeschool.

Does quality of education matter? Yes! This is a universal right for children.
 

ebenz47037

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Mark, it's after midnight here. And, I have to get up early tomorrow to take care of some business. So, I will say good night for now. I will get to some more of your posts tomorrow evening (hopefully before 8PM my time, if not then after 10 PM my time). Have a good day.
 

Mark Tindall

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kmoney said:
:think: I'm surprised parents have that much freedom...

It is a HUGE worry for anyone concerned with quality education for children. Australia is far ahead in this matter and insists on minimum standards in all states. HOW a child is educated is not a problem ion Australia ... but the quality of the education must come up to a minum standard so that every child has a decent start in life.

Homeschooling works best for rich educated parents and works least for poor uneducated parents.

Homeschooling also works least for rabid fundamentalist types who indoctrinate their children in psuedoscience creationism and teach the bible as absolute, attempting to isolate children from opposing points of view and "secular humanism".

It doesn't work!!!!!!

From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
York:1951] ...


*********************

p. 14 " ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly
be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought
it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek
poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides)

p. 16 "'To the pure all things are pure;' not only meat and drinks, but all
kind of knowledge whether good or evil; the knowledge cannot defile, nor
consequently the books, if the will and conscience be not defiled."

p. 21 " ... a wise man will make better use of an idle pamphlet than a fool
will do of sacred Scripture."

p. 25 "Banish all objects of lust, shut up all youth into the severest
discipline that can be exercised in any hermitage, ye cannot make them
chaste that came not thither so ..."

p. 37 "Any man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believes things only
because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing
other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes
his heresy. There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to
another, than the charge and care of their religion."

p.51 "And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the
earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and
prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple; who
ever knew Truth to be the worse in a free and open encounter? Her confuting
is the best and surest suppressing."
 

Mark Tindall

BANNED
Banned
docrob57 said:
They won't for long. What we in the Christian homeschooling community will have to decide is what we are going to do once all of the freedoms begin to be taken away.


As Francis Schaeffer said the freedoms that Christianity has brought will be turned against it. In the past Christians have banned art works and ideas ... brutally .. the same will happen to Christianity. The worst thing to happen to Christianity is the current right wing conservative Fundamentalist Dark Age where Christian are taught that thinking and questioning are evil. It gives Christianity a bad name.
 

Mark Tindall

BANNED
Banned
B1 Lancer said:
Some people can't homeschool even if they wanted, too, like single moms or dads.


Exactly! This is never mentioned by homeschoolers because they want to paint a rosey picture of perfection. A working single parent is fighting an uphill abttle to survive let alone try to homeschool.

The same is also true to a lesser extent for parents who both work.

Professional educators teach for a living so homeschooling is like having an second job.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Strooth said:
This means that there is no way of knowing the quality of homeschooling in every homeschool.
It is known. At the moment, every study so far shows that homeschooling is higher quality than public schooling. Not only in the matter of academics, but more importantly in the matter of character.

Does quality of education matter? Yes! This is a universal right for children.
Then children need to be removed from the poor quality education they receive at public school if that is your view. If not from a common understanding that public school does a poor job academically, but more importantly, because it ruins a childs character.
 
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