Hebrews 7:12 the law was transferred not changed...

clefty

New member
This text Heb 7:12 is often used...repeatedly...to insist Ham dinners after Sunday church is ok...

Let’s look at it:

12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Entry for Strong's #3331 - μετάθεσις

Transliteration
metáthesis
Phonetics
met-ath'-es-is
00:00 / 00:02
Word Origin
from (3346)
Parts of Speech
Noun Feminine
TDNT
8:161,1176
Word Definition [ Thayer | Strong | Mounce ]
Thayer's Definition
transfer: from one place to another

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/3331.html

So just like I dont destroy or never use a recipe again after I fulfill its requirements...

nothing is lost or changed when I transfer it from kitchen to kitchen, cook to cook, generation to generation...it does not go from chocolate chip cookies to oatmeal raisin...certainly not lentil loaf to pork roast...lol

The recipe remains...the Law remains...unchanged

The Law went from Heaven to Earth...from wilderness to Jerusalem...from stone to hearts...the Law is that recipe...”Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”..taste and see that Yah is good...

If too lazy to read or research perhaps this will help:

https://youtu.be/Ae1GTjsesEw

May any of the Word transferred to your ears not be changed...
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
This text Heb 7:12 is often used...repeatedly...to insist Ham dinners after Sunday church is ok...

Let’s look at it:

12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Entry for Strong's #3331 - μετάθεσις

Transliteration
metáthesis
Phonetics
met-ath'-es-is
00:00 / 00:02
Word Origin
from (3346)
Parts of Speech
Noun Feminine
TDNT
8:161,1176
Word Definition [ Thayer | Strong | Mounce ]
Thayer's Definition
transfer: from one place to another

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/3331.html

So just like I dont destroy or never use a recipe again after I fulfill its requirements...

nothing is lost or changed when I transfer it from kitchen to kitchen, cook to cook, generation to generation...it does not go from chocolate chip cookies to oatmeal raisin...certainly not lentil loaf to pork roast...lol

The recipe remains...the Law remains...unchanged

The Law went from Heaven to Earth...from wilderness to Jerusalem...from stone to hearts...the Law is that recipe...”Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”..taste and see that Yah is good...

If too lazy to read or research perhaps this will help:

https://youtu.be/Ae1GTjsesEw

May any of the Word transferred to your ears not be changed...

Shalom.

Today is Rishon, 10-27.

I think you are saying that the Law was changed to the same Law. But that is answering the wrong question of what was the law changed to. A change of the law is different from changing the Law of Moses, which has not happened or occurred.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

daqq

Well-known member
This text Heb 7:12 is often used...repeatedly...to insist Ham dinners after Sunday church is ok...

Let’s look at it:

12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Entry for Strong's #3331 - μετάθεσις

Transliteration
metáthesis
Phonetics
met-ath'-es-is
00:00 / 00:02
Word Origin
from (3346)
Parts of Speech
Noun Feminine
TDNT
8:161,1176
Word Definition [ Thayer | Strong | Mounce ]
Thayer's Definition
transfer: from one place to another

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/3331.html

So just like I dont destroy or never use a recipe again after I fulfill its requirements...

nothing is lost or changed when I transfer it from kitchen to kitchen, cook to cook, generation to generation...it does not go from chocolate chip cookies to oatmeal raisin...certainly not lentil loaf to pork roast...lol

The recipe remains...the Law remains...unchanged

The Law went from Heaven to Earth...from wilderness to Jerusalem...from stone to hearts...the Law is that recipe...”Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”..taste and see that Yah is good...

If too lazy to read or research perhaps this will help:

https://youtu.be/Ae1GTjsesEw

May any of the Word transferred to your ears not be changed...

Same kind of translation and transformation by which the same author speaks of Enoch.
The same two words are used, (metatithemi and metathesis, Heb7:12, Heb11:5).
 

clefty

New member
Same kind of translation and transformation by which the same author speaks of Enoch.
The same two words are used, (metatithemi and metathesis, Heb7:12, Heb11:5).

Yes and Jacob’s bones transferred from Egypt...meaning they were moved not changed or abolished...but changed burial spots from one place to another...

Act_7:16 And G2532 were carried overG3346 intoG1519 Sychem,G4966 andG2532 laidG5087 inG1722 theG3588 sepulchreG3418 thatG3739 AbrahamG11

boughtG5608 for a sumG5092 of moneyG694 ofG3844 theG3588 sonsG5207 of EmmorG1697 the father of Sychem.G4966

http://thechurchofacts.com/2016/12/28/hebrews7-12-no-change/
 

daqq

Well-known member
Yes and Jacob’s bones transferred from Egypt...meaning they were moved not changed or abolished...but changed burial spots from one place to another...

Act_7:16 And G2532 were carried overG3346 intoG1519 Sychem,G4966 andG2532 laidG5087 inG1722 theG3588 sepulchreG3418 thatG3739 AbrahamG11

boughtG5608 for a sumG5092 of moneyG694 ofG3844 theG3588 sonsG5207 of EmmorG1697 the father of Sychem.G4966

http://thechurchofacts.com/2016/12/28/hebrews7-12-no-change/

Yes, but more of a transformation in the sense of Heb7:12 because the author says that Enoch also, (included in "all"), died in faith, not having received the promises, (Heb11:13, "These all died in faith", meaning all those mentioned up to that point in the text). Therefore the transformation of Enoch occurred when Elohim took him, (into the heavenly realms, and dreams and visions), but that does not mean his body did not suffer death: for "to taste of death" and "to see death" are not the same things, (cf Jhn8:51,52, Heb11:5), and thus Enoch was sent back to write and prophesy just as Jude says he prophesied and just as it is written in the work attributed to him.

While I do appreciate the link, and agree with the first points made in your link, (very nicely and plainly stated), I do not agree with the author when he or she speaks of a pause, interruption, or temporary setting aside of the Levite priesthood. It has never been interrupted, (the Melki-Tzedek Elohim-Priesthood is the higher order of Meshiah our captain and commander, (the Head, haKohen haGadol)). The Levite Priesthood has been transformed just as the Torah, and indeed, the transformation of the Torah was expected by the Sages who taught that when Meshiah would come the Torah would indeed be transformed into the Spirit and supernal Way. Enoch was thus transformed in the same manner: from carnal minded into spiritual minded.

Howbeit we agree on the most critical point you have made: it is not a change in the way many people seem to imagine it when they read that word, as if an alteration, or annulment, or abolishing, but rather it is a transformation, like Enoch: and Enoch did not become someone or something else, no, but Enoch was transformed from corruptible into incorruptible, (before his carcass was shed, lol, for the man is not his carcass).
 

clefty

New member
Yes, but more of a transformation in the sense of Heb7:12 because the author says that Enoch also, (included in "all"), died in faith, not having received the promises, (Heb11:13, "These all died in faith", meaning all those mentioned up to that point in the text). Therefore the transformation of Enoch occurred when Elohim took him, (into the heavenly realms, and dreams and visions), but that does not mean his body did not suffer death: for "to taste of death" and "to see death" are not the same things, (cf Jhn8:51,52, Heb11:5), and thus Enoch was sent back to write and prophesy just as Jude says he prophesied and just as it is written in the work attributed to him.

While I do appreciate the link, and agree with the first points made in your link, (very nicely and plainly stated), I do not agree with the author when he or she speaks of a pause, interruption, or temporary setting aside of the Levite priesthood. It has never been interrupted, (the Melki-Tzedek Elohim-Priesthood is the higher order of Meshiah our captain and commander, (the Head, haKohen haGadol)). The Levite Priesthood has been transformed just as the Torah, and indeed, the transformation of the Torah was expected by the Sages who taught that when Meshiah would come the Torah would indeed be transformed into the Spirit and supernal Way. Enoch was thus transformed in the same manner: from carnal minded into spiritual minded.

Howbeit we agree on the most critical point you have made: it is not a change in the way many people seem to imagine it when they read that word, as if an alteration, or annulment, or abolishing, but rather it is a transformation, like Enoch: and Enoch did not become someone or something else, no, but Enoch was transformed from corruptible into incorruptible, (before his carcass was shed, lol, for the man is not his carcass).

Ha yes...this cage of flesh...may it first die symbolically the baptism...then literally the first death...and then be transferred/transformed to the glorious new body of the new world...

Yes just as from stone tablets “lost” since the destruction of the first temple to them being “written on the hearts and minds” of His people...

The problem Law is the Sabbath...all this mess is a result of rejecting this sign...NO christian has a problem with ANY of the other nine Laws written on their hearts and minds and still binding...but come to that 4th commandment given again to Israel, AND THE FOREIGNERS SAVED WITH THEM, and suddenly it’s “AWWW HELL NO!” the whole thing, ALL OF IT, comes undone and deserving of being abolished!! LOL

The irony it is the only Law revealed before sin...before jews even...when it was the way it was meant to be...and will be again...
 

daqq

Well-known member
Yes just as from stone tablets “lost” since the destruction of the first temple to them being “written on the hearts and minds” of His people...

One can see almost the whole Torah as Rhema, (fruit), produced from the Ten Words which were spoken by Elohim and written with the finger of Elohim on the two tablets or tables of stone, (some say piercing entirely through, and that it was in this manner that the two tables were written on both sides). If one can view the stone tables or tablets as the unregenerated heart of stone then the heart of Moses was circumcised by the finger of Elohim with the Ten Words, (the Ten Commandments). The rest of the Torah is a product, (fruit), of the Ten Words and essentially all flows from those Ten Words, ("the Letter"+"Logos-Reasoning" of Messiah produces Rhema). If therefore one has both the Letter and the Logos-reasoning of Messiah then the same will produce Rhema, (but first must die, (to self)), but without the Logos-reasoning the Letter simply kills and the hearer who does not really hear bears no fruit, (Rhema). This is what happened to Moses, that is, his heart was circumcised by the finger of Elohim with the Ten Words, and the rest of the Torah was produced through the new heart of Moses, (and the Lamb), as a result. In the Septuagint version of Dt4:13 we read for the Ten Words, "δεκα ρηματα", "Ten Rhemata-Sayings", that is, the ten spoken-words or sayings: for the passage speaks of when Elohim spoke or announced the covenant and the Ten Words to all the people at Horeb. But in Dt10:4 we read, "δεκα λογους", ("Ten Logos-Words" or Sayings), for it speaks of the Ten Words which Elohim wrote on-in-through the two tables of stone.
 

clefty

New member
One can see almost the whole Torah as Rhema, (fruit), produced from the Ten Words which were spoken by Elohim and written with the finger of Elohim on the two tablets or tables of stone, (some say piercing entirely through, and that it was in this manner that the two tables were written on both sides). If one can view the stone tables or tablets as the unregenerated heart of stone then the heart of Moses was circumcised by the finger of Elohim with the Ten Words, (the Ten Commandments). The rest of the Torah is a product, (fruit), of the Ten Words and essentially all flows from those Ten Words, ("the Letter"+"Logos-Reasoning" of Messiah produces Rhema). If therefore one has both the Letter and the Logos-reasoning of Messiah then the same will produce Rhema, (but first must die, (to self)), but without the Logos-reasoning the Letter simply kills and the hearer who does not really hear bears no fruit, (Rhema). This is what happened to Moses, that is, his heart was circumcised by the finger of Elohim with the Ten Words, and the rest of the Torah was produced through the new heart of Moses, (and the Lamb), as a result. In the Septuagint version of Dt4:13 we read for the Ten Words, "δεκα ρηματα", "Ten Rhemata-Sayings", that is, the ten spoken-words or sayings: for the passage speaks of when Elohim spoke or announced the covenant and the Ten Words to all the people at Horeb. But in Dt10:4 we read, "δεκα λογους", ("Ten Logos-Words" or Sayings), for it speaks of the Ten Words which Elohim wrote on-in-through the two tables of stone.

Yes I have heard them described as ten sayings...in fact translators into English had difficulty with the present past tense grammar of old...and sought to make it future imperative “thou shalt” was the best they came up with as the way it is written is “thou doest not”...

These ten saying describe Him His character and what it is like where He is...

Where He is there is NO other god...No need for images...His name is used...Sabbath kept...parents honored...no killing necessary...no stealing or adultery...only truth...no need to covet

That describes heaven and eden...where He is...is why we are to pray “on earth as it is in heaven”...the Torah prepares us to live again as it was before this detour of sin...with Him His Way...

Even as a child I heard BIBLE stands for B-asic I-nstructions B-efore L-eaving E-arth...ha
 

daqq

Well-known member
Yes I have heard them described as ten sayings...in fact translators into English had difficulty with the present past tense grammar of old...and sought to make it future imperative “thou shalt” was the best they came up with as the way it is written is “thou doest not”...

These ten saying describe Him His character and what it is like where He is...

Where He is there is NO other god...No need for images...His name is used...Sabbath kept...parents honored...no killing necessary...no stealing or adultery...only truth...no need to covet

That describes heaven and eden...where He is...is why we are to pray “on earth as it is in heaven”...the Torah prepares us to live again as it was before this detour of sin...with Him His Way...

Even as a child I heard BIBLE stands for B-asic I-nstructions B-efore L-eaving E-arth...ha

:thumb: There are places where even Paul uses nomos just as if it was the word torah which is often used in the sense of teaching(s) and instruction(s). I think that if this was better understood there would be not a few places where the texts in his writings would be better understood and better rendered into English. Here is one example:

Romans 8:1-2 ASV
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.


The word for law in both cases above is nomos: but what is "the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah"? and more critically what could be "the law of sin and of death" if we read it in this manner? The reader comes away thinking that the whole Torah is "the law of sin and death", and if the mindset is predisposed against the Torah, then such a one finds justification for abolishing the Torah altogether from his or her heart and mind. But how is there a "law of the Spirit of life in Messiah"? What kind of law could that be speaking of? I strongly suggest that this is not what Paul means at all and is rather using nomos here in the same sense as the word torah, which in this sense would be teaching(s) and-or instruction(s). But if you read the first phrase that way then it is only fair to read the second phrase in the same sense because of the context and juxtaposition between the two phrases in the same sentence, like so:

Romans 8:2
2 For the nomos-torah-teaching of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua set me free from the nomos-torah-teaching of sin and of death.


Does the Torah teach sin and death? Yes, absolutely, as you no doubt also already know, "the soul that sins shall die", but that does not mean that the Torah itself brings sin and death like some imagine, no, but rather our own sins bring about death while the Torah simply teaches us the reason, the why, (which is supposed to bring us to our knees, to seek the mercy of the Father, and the grace of Elohim, and lead us like a "schoolmaster" or crosswalk-crossing guard to Messiah). This is one of the more obvious places where nomos should be understood like torah, in the sense of teaching and instruction, but there are also other similar less obvious places.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Let’s look at it:

12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Entry for Strong's #3331 - μετάθεσις

Transliteration
metáthesis
Phonetics
met-ath'-es-is
00:00 / 00:02
Word Origin
from (3346)
Parts of Speech
Noun Feminine
TDNT
8:161,1176
Word Definition [ Thayer | Strong | Mounce ]
Thayer's Definition
transfer: from one place to another

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/3331.html

Read very closely, follow the flow of the context, and it should be readily apparent that the author first and foremost speaks of the transformation of the priesthood, (then the transformation of the Torah, which comes only by the understanding of the Testimony of the Messiah written for us in the Gospel accounts).

Hebrews 7:11-24 ASV
11 Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it hath the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be reckoned after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed,
[transformed] there is made of necessity a change [transformation] also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.
15 And what we say is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
16 who hath been made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
17 for it is witnessed of him, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek.
18 For there is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as it is not without the taking of an oath
21 (for they indeed have been made priests without an oath; but he with an oath by him that saith of him, The Lord sware and will not repent himself, Thou art a priest for ever);
22 by so much also hath Jesus become the surety of a better covenant.
23 And they indeed have been made priests many in number, because that by death they are hindered from continuing:
24 but he, because he abideth for ever, hath his priesthood unchangeable.


The author speaks of the disannulling of the "covenant with death" as likewise foretold in the Prophet Isaiah, and that has to do first and foremost in this context with the fact that every priest until Messiah died, and when he died, another was elected to take his place, and when that one died, another was elected to take his place: a covenant with death, which was weak because of the flesh, for all men sin and die, and thus he says that it was to be disannulled because of its weakness and unprofitableness due to the fact that all men are appointed once to die. But when you have one who is raised from the dead, and that is of course Messiah, and he has been proclaimed by the Father with an oath, "You are a priest forever, (after the order of Melki-Tzedek)", then there is likewise the necessity for a transformation in the Torah; and that comes by way of his holy Testimony which expounds the Torah in the new supernal and spiritual Way and which Testimony is written for us in the Gospel accounts, (and in the Apocalypse). This, as I said earlier, was already long expected to be the case by the Rabbins and Sages of old, and there should be no doubt that the Isaiah passage is where the author of Hebrews is drawing from in the above statements, for it concerns the "covenant with death" which Isaiah foretells will be disannulled:

Isaiah 28:9-15 KJV
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.


Notice the above is addressed to the rulers of the people at Jerusalem, and that is to say, the Kohanim-Priests and Sanhedrin Elders: and that surely speaks of the inferior doctrines, teachings, Sanhedrin rulings, decrees, ordinances, dogmas, (δογμασιν, Eph2:15, Col2:14), and teachings and commandments of men and the traditions of the Elders which the Master is always railing against. The fifth chapter of Matthew expounds the same by reason of the fact that the Master is not saying "It is written" when he refutes their teachings, but rather, "You have heard it said", (and τοις αρχαιοις, which can be either "of old time" or might even be "the old timers", "the ancient ones", implying "the traditions of the Elders" handed down). That section of torah-teaching of the Spirit of Life in Messiah begins with Mat5:20,21, condemning the righteousness of the Pharisees and Scribes, which they held to be contained in "the traditions of the Elders". The Master is by his Testimony disannulling their flesh-minded covenant with death by teaching the truth about the same Torah: and in some cases they did not go far enough in their understanding of the Torah, and in other cases they had utterly misapplied what is written in the Torah by what they decreed, taught, spoke, and said, (as in Mat5:38-42).
 

clefty

New member
:thumb: There are places where even Paul uses nomos just as if it was the word torah which is often used in the sense of teaching(s) and instruction(s). I think that if this was better understood there would be not a few places where the texts in his writings would be better understood and better rendered into English. Here is one example:

Romans 8:1-2 ASV
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.


The word for law in both cases above is nomos: but what is "the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah"? and more critically what could be "the law of sin and of death" if we read it in this manner? The reader comes away thinking that the whole Torah is "the law of sin and death", and if the mindset is predisposed against the Torah, then such a one finds justification for abolishing the Torah altogether from his or her heart and mind. But how is there a "law of the Spirit of life in Messiah"? What kind of law could that be speaking of? I strongly suggest that this is not what Paul means at all and is rather using nomos here in the same sense as the word torah, which in this sense would be teaching(s) and-or instruction(s). But if you read the first phrase that way then it is only fair to read the second phrase in the same sense because of the context and juxtaposition between the two phrases in the same sentence, like so:

Romans 8:2
2 For the nomos-torah-teaching of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua set me free from the nomos-torah-teaching of sin and of death.


Does the Torah teach sin and death? Yes, absolutely, as you no doubt also already know, "the soul that sins shall die", but that does not mean that the Torah itself brings sin and death like some imagine, no, but rather our own sins bring about death while the Torah simply teaches us the reason, the why, (which is supposed to bring us to our knees, to seek the mercy of the Father, and the grace of Elohim, and lead us like a "schoolmaster" or crosswalk-crossing guard to Messiah). This is one of the more obvious places where nomos should be understood like torah, in the sense of teaching and instruction, but there are also other similar less obvious places.

The word is often depicted as a sword...in revelations coming out of His mouth...the sword of two edges...good and evil...offensive and defensive...

Earlier you noted the tablets at Sinai were carved on both sides...I like teasing it is so that those going to heaven can read this sign as well as those going the opposite direction...ha ha

It is a complex and multifaceted apparatus this law...as is also any secular law...we do a real disservice to ourselves and understanding of salvation by simplifying it to just 10...

Appreciating your input...
 

daqq

Well-known member
The word is often depicted as a sword...in revelations coming out of His mouth...the sword of two edges...good and evil...offensive and defensive...

Earlier you noted the tablets at Sinai were carved on both sides...I like teasing it is so that those going to heaven can read this sign as well as those going the opposite direction...ha ha

It is a complex and multifaceted apparatus this law...as is also any secular law...we do a real disservice to ourselves and understanding of salvation by simplifying it to just 10...

Appreciating your input...

:) Check the rhomphaia-sword: for that one pierces through the soul revealing the heart.

Luke 2:35
35 Yea, and a sword
[G4501 ρομφαια] shall pierce through your own soul also: that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

The only other place we find rhomphaia is in the Apocalypse, (Rev1:16, 2:12, 2:16, 6:8, 19:15, 19:21), and that of course concerns the swift double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the one whose name is the Logos of Elohim, that is, the Son of Elohim, (Rev19:11-16, [the rhomphaia is mentioned in Rev19:15]). Messiah has been made the Minister of the Circumcision, (of the heart), Rom15:8 ASV.
 

clefty

New member
Read very closely, follow the flow of the context, and it should be readily apparent that the author first and foremost speaks of the transformation of the priesthood, (then the transformation of the Torah, which comes only by the understanding of the Testimony of the Messiah written for us in the Gospel accounts).

Hebrews 7:11-24 ASV
11 Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it hath the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be reckoned after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed,
[transformed] there is made of necessity a change [transformation] also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.
15 And what we say is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
16 who hath been made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life:
17 for it is witnessed of him, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchizedek.
18 For there is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as it is not without the taking of an oath
21 (for they indeed have been made priests without an oath; but he with an oath by him that saith of him, The Lord sware and will not repent himself, Thou art a priest for ever);
22 by so much also hath Jesus become the surety of a better covenant.
23 And they indeed have been made priests many in number, because that by death they are hindered from continuing:
24 but he, because he abideth for ever, hath his priesthood unchangeable.


The author speaks of the disannulling of the "covenant with death" as likewise foretold in the Prophet Isaiah, and that has to do first and foremost in this context with the fact that every priest until Messiah died, and when he died, another was elected to take his place, and when that one died, another was elected to take his place: a covenant with death, which was weak because of the flesh, for all men sin and die, and thus he says that it was to be disannulled because of its weakness and unprofitableness due to the fact that all men are appointed once to die. But when you have one who is raised from the dead, and that is of course Messiah, and he has been proclaimed by the Father with an oath, "You are a priest forever, (after the order of Melki-Tzedek)", then there is likewise the necessity for a transformation in the Torah; and that comes by way of his holy Testimony which expounds the Torah in the new supernal and spiritual Way and which Testimony is written for us in the Gospel accounts, (and in the Apocalypse). This, as I said earlier, was already long expected to be the case by the Rabbins and Sages of old, and there should be no doubt that the Isaiah passage is where the author of Hebrews is drawing from in the above statements, for it concerns the "covenant with death" which Isaiah foretells will be disannulled:

Isaiah 28:9-15 KJV
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.


Notice the above is addressed to the rulers of the people at Jerusalem, and that is to say, the Kohanim-Priests and Sanhedrin Elders: and that surely speaks of the inferior doctrines, teachings, Sanhedrin rulings, decrees, ordinances, dogmas, (δογμασιν, Eph2:15, Col2:14), and teachings and commandments of men and the traditions of the Elders which the Master is always railing against. The fifth chapter of Matthew expounds the same by reason of the fact that the Master is not saying "It is written" when he refutes their teachings, but rather, "You have heard it said", (and τοις αρχαιοις, which can be either "of old time" or might even be "the old timers", "the ancient ones", implying "the traditions of the Elders" handed down). That section of torah-teaching of the Spirit of Life in Messiah begins with Mat5:20,21, condemning the righteousness of the Pharisees and Scribes, which they held to be contained in "the traditions of the Elders". The Master is by his Testimony disannulling their flesh-minded covenant with death by teaching the truth about the same Torah: and in some cases they did not go far enough in their understanding of the Torah, and in other cases they had utterly misapplied what is written in the Torah by what they decreed, taught, spoke, and said, (as in Mat5:38-42).

For me it remains the transference of authority between priests meant so to did the law...literally...just as they finally found a copy of it in a wall...finally read it again...and were transformed by the hearing of it read...

I think I understand what you are getting at but there is for me danger in ascribing too much power into the “transformation of the law”...it was never built to purify as even its sacrificial system was never removed sin...but it was to point the way as a shadow to the light...a tool like gravity that some would accuse as making us fall but we understand we tripped and remain grateful that natural law exists...

As for the Law’s purpose...to point out sin...is all...which means what? Sin is not dirt or anything else material but a condition or attitude of heart...a state of being...sin NEVER was placed on the goat that it would feel the weight of it...nor was it actually washed away by baptism...sacrifices never removed it from Israel and so how was the law to do anything more than point it out?

So what is meant by the day of atonement...you mean to tell me all of israel to a person confessed ALL their sins the previous year? The High priest was never recorded as dying for lack of confession of sin while in the Holy of Holies...but it was all symbolic...never INTENDING to remove actual sin...only the Love relationship with a eternal High Priest can change the heart...”remove sin” the law points to...

“Behold the Lamb which takes the sin away the sin of the world” John the Baptist said...but NOT at passover...NOT AT HIS DEATH as sin remains all around and in us...

The passover sacrifice did not remove sin even symbolically...it was meant as a thank offering covering...His Wrath would pass over...just like in Eden...the wilderness...at the cross...as it will finally be on Judgement day when FINALLY the Lamb in revelation will do away with sin...forever...stamp it out...not as material dirt but the cleansing of that attitude of rebellion...the Wrath will burn up that attitude and we will be spared passed over...for the work of our High Priest...

The law of death the debt and consequence of sin...the second spiritual death...will FINALLY be destroyed forever...
 

clefty

New member
:) Check the rhomphaia-sword: for that one pierces through the soul revealing the heart.

Luke 2:35
35 Yea, and a sword
[G4501 ρομφαια] shall pierce through your own soul also: that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

The only other place we find rhomphaia is in the Apocalypse, (Rev1:16, 2:12, 2:16, 6:8, 19:15, 19:21), and that of course concerns the swift double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the one whose name is the Logos of Elohim, that is, the Son of Elohim, (Rev19:11-16, [the rhomphaia is mentioned in Rev19:15]). Messiah has been made the Minister of the Circumcision, (of the heart), Rom15:8 ASV.

Peter’s sword cut off an ear...and papist peters have prevented hearing the Word for centuries now...only Yahushua can restore the hearing of the word...

Let them hear for those that still have ears...untouched by papist peter’s sword
 

daqq

Well-known member
For me it remains the transference of authority between priests meant so to did the law...literally...just as they finally found a copy of it in a wall...finally read it again...and were transformed by the hearing of it read...

I think I understand what you are getting at but there is for me danger in ascribing too much power into the “transformation of the law”...it was never built to purify as even its sacrificial system was never removed sin...but it was to point the way as a shadow to the light...a tool like gravity that some would accuse as making us fall but we understand we tripped and remain grateful that natural law exists...

As for the Law’s purpose...to point out sin...is all...which means what? Sin is not dirt or anything else material but a condition or attitude of heart...a state of being...sin NEVER was placed on the goat that it would feel the weight of it...nor was it actually washed away by baptism...sacrifices never removed it from Israel and so how was the law to do anything more than point it out?

So what is meant by the day of atonement...you mean to tell me all of israel to a person confessed ALL their sins the previous year? The High priest was never recorded as dying for lack of confession of sin while in the Holy of Holies...but it was all symbolic...never INTENDING to remove actual sin...only the Love relationship with a eternal High Priest can change the heart...”remove sin” the law points to...

“Behold the Lamb which takes the sin away the sin of the world” John the Baptist said...but NOT at passover...NOT AT HIS DEATH as sin remains all around and in us...

The passover sacrifice did not remove sin even symbolically...it was meant as a thank offering covering...His Wrath would pass over...just like in Eden...the wilderness...at the cross...as it will finally be on Judgement day when FINALLY the Lamb in revelation will do away with sin...forever...stamp it out...not as material dirt but the cleansing of that attitude of rebellion...the Wrath will burn up that attitude and we will be spared passed over...for the work of our High Priest...

The law of death the debt and consequence of sin...the second spiritual death...will FINALLY be destroyed forever...

The word used for "to forgive" actually means "to send away" in various applications. The Master reveals his authority to send away sins in the following manner, (and the companion accounts are not necessarily exactly the same in meaning).

Try reading the following passage in this way if even just for the point:
G863 αφιημι (aphiemi) = "to send away"

Luke 5:18-26
18 And behold, men bring on a bed a man that was paralyzed: and they sought to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
19 And not finding by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went up to the housetop, and let him down through the tiles with his mattress into the midst before Yeshua.
20 And seeing their belief-trust-faith, he said, Man, your sins are aphiemi-sent away from you!
21 And the Scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can aphiemi-send away sins except Elohim alone?
22 But Yeshua perceiving their reasonings, answered and said to them, Why do you reason such in your hearts?
23 Which is easier, to say, "Your sins are aphiemi-sent away from you? or to say, Arise and walk?
24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority upon the land to aphiemi-send away sins: (he said to him that was paralyzed), I say unto you, Arise, and take up your mattress, and go to your house!
25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereupon he lay, and departed to his house, glorifying Elohim.
26 And amazement took hold on all, and they glorified Elohim; and they were filled with fear, saying, We have seen paradoxical things this day!


What happened here? The Kohen Gadol by the order of Melki-Tzedek can send away sins any time any place: but in this passage they accuse him of blasphemy because they knew that such power was only vested from on High in their version of who they considered the "High Priest", and that was only to be done once in a year, (Yom Kippurim-Atonements). The Kohen Gadol and High Priest indeed bears the sins of the people: but like every priest, even Ahron and his sons and his line, the Priest only bears the sins temporarily, and they are not imputed in any way to the priest himself. This "bearing" of the sins of the people is only long enough to place them onto the head of the goat to be sent away into the wilderness with all the sins of the people upon its (mortally wounded) head. It is your "old man" goat who is sent away into the world, ("the spirit of the world"), with all your sins upon his head: and for those who would continue in sin, Moses says, "Be sure your sins will find you out!", (Num32:23). This is why the goat is never commanded to be slain or destroyed in the surface text: for it was to be a warning that "your sin will find you out", (would come back from the dry-arid places of the desert-wilderness of wandering), if you continued to walk in your former ways after having tasted of the mercy and grace of Elohim. The main reason it became tradition to send the goat over a rocky precipice to its destruction was because of the catastrophic ceremonial implications of the goat possibly wandering back into the camp with all the sins of the people upon its (mortally wounded) head.

The Master teaches the same:

John 5:14
14 Afterward Yeshua found him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you.


And what might that worse thing be? (Mat 12:43,44,45, Luk 11:24,25,26, Eph 2:2,3, Dan 8:5). But in the End, all things work toward that good and expected ending for those who love Elohim, (there is a final atonement to be made: and it is a fiery one).
 

clefty

New member
The word used for "to forgive" actually means "to send away" in various applications. The Master reveals his authority to send away sins in the following manner, (and the companion accounts are not necessarily exactly the same in meaning).

Try reading the following passage in this way if even just for the point:
G863 αφιημι (aphiemi) = "to send away"

Luke 5:18-26
18 And behold, men bring on a bed a man that was paralyzed: and they sought to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
19 And not finding by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went up to the housetop, and let him down through the tiles with his mattress into the midst before Yeshua.
20 And seeing their belief-trust-faith, he said, Man, your sins are aphiemi-sent away from you!
21 And the Scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can aphiemi-send away sins except Elohim alone?
22 But Yeshua perceiving their reasonings, answered and said to them, Why do you reason such in your hearts?
23 Which is easier, to say, "Your sins are aphiemi-sent away from you? or to say, Arise and walk?
24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority upon the land to aphiemi-send away sins: (he said to him that was paralyzed), I say unto you, Arise, and take up your mattress, and go to your house!
25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereupon he lay, and departed to his house, glorifying Elohim.
26 And amazement took hold on all, and they glorified Elohim; and they were filled with fear, saying, We have seen paradoxical things this day!


What happened here? The Kohen Gadol by the order of Melki-Tzedek can send away sins any time any place: but in this passage they accuse him of blasphemy because they knew that such power was only vested from on High in their version of who they considered the "High Priest", and that was only to be done once in a year, (Yom Kippurim-Atonements). The Kohen Gadol and High Priest indeed bears the sins of the people: but like every priest, even Ahron and his sons and his line, the Priest only bears the sins temporarily, and they are not imputed in any way to the priest himself. This "bearing" of the sins of the people is only long enough to place them onto the head of the goat to be sent away into the wilderness with all the sins of the people upon its (mortally wounded) head. It is your "old man" goat who is sent away into the world, ("the spirit of the world"), with all your sins upon his head: and for those who would continue in sin, Moses says, "Be sure your sins will find you out!", (Num32:23). This is why the goat is never commanded to be slain or destroyed in the surface text: for it was to be a warning that "your sin will find you out", (would come back from the dry-arid places of the desert-wilderness of wandering), if you continued to walk in your former ways after having tasted of the mercy and grace of Elohim. The main reason it became tradition to send the goat over a rocky precipice to its destruction was because of the catastrophic ceremonial implications of the goat possibly wandering back into the camp with all the sins of the people upon its (mortally wounded) head.

The Master teaches the same:

John 5:14
14 Afterward Yeshua found him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you.


And what might that worse thing be? (Mat 12:43,44,45, Luk 11:24,25,26, Eph 2:2,3, Dan 8:5). But in the End, all things work toward that good and expected ending for those who love Elohim, (there is a final atonement to be made: and it is a fiery one).

Ha yes the scape goat scampering back into camp would have to be beaten away again and again...hmmmm...that is the lesson no?...and after 40 years that is a flock...lol

Note to self...keeping from sin is impossible...



What stumps christians further is that even with the Passover did not remove sin...NO sin was removed by sacrifice

And only sins of omission were sacrificed for...the first time sin is forgivable as having been done without knowing...however the sin after knowing the truth has no sacrifice...

Christians in fear of HELL forget that clean and unclean were easily rectified as was violation of larger law...with restoration and sacrifice...

Again...some uncleanliness was done away with as the sun set...the unclean restored to camp having done nothing...sound familiar? That is the gospel...not works but faith

Sin is violation of law...for doing that which one of us does not do...it is not material and if you can appease the final judge into forgiving or forgetting you can remain in the camp...

Understandable the zealous grooming of each other and the corruption of priests was built in...hence the need for it to return to a divine High Priest...
 

daqq

Well-known member
What stumps christians further is that even with the Passover did not remove sin...NO sin was removed by sacrifice

And only sins of omission were sacrificed for...the first time sin is forgivable as having been done without knowing...however the sin after knowing the truth has no sacrifice...

Christians in fear of HELL forget that clean and unclean were easily rectified as was violation of larger law...with restoration and sacrifice...

Again...some uncleanliness was done away with as the sun set...the unclean restored to camp having done nothing...sound familiar? That is the gospel...not works but faith

Sin is violation of law...for doing that which one of us does not do...it is not material and if you can appease the final judge into forgiving or forgetting you can remain in the camp...

Understandable the zealous grooming of each other and the corruption of priests was built in...hence the need for it to return to a divine High Priest...

Again, amen, the Master expounds the "law of liberty", (of which the epistle of James speaks), in the Lord's Prayer and in the parable of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of ten thousand talents of debt, (Mat18:23-34,35).

James 2:12-13
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


The Law of Liberty:

Matthew 6:9-15 ASV
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Other than the fact that he is teaching his disciples, (strongly implying that it is entirely profitable to become his disciple, lol), it is as simple as that. Apart from the if's within the statements themselves, there are no other if's, and's, or but's about it: if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses. So speak and so act, as those that shall be judged by the law of liberty: for the one having shown no mercy shall receive judgment without mercy. It is by faith, by grace, and by mercy, not by what anyone can do with his or her hands: show mercy and you will be shown mercy, and Mat18:35 reinforces that point and makes it abundantly clear. As a matter of fact, just by the several the passages quoted herein above, there really is no legitimate reason for a person to even want the Torah to be abolished if indeed they understand the above statements of the Master, (and the epistle of James). The Torah can now be seen from the much better perspecitve of teaching(s) instead of condemnation. :)
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Okay, next question to you Clefty: how therefore was the Shabbat transformed? :chuckle:
 

daqq

Well-known member
Okay, next question to you Clefty: how therefore was the Shabbat transformed? :chuckle:

Hmmm, I thought for sure, seeing how you enjoy turning every other thread into a Sabbath thread, you would love to talk about it here in your own thread? I guess you must be busy turning some other thread into another Sabbath thread as usual, (lol). Anyway here is something to get you started in the transformation of the Shabbat:

John 1:39 W/H
39 λεγει αυτοις ερχεσθε και οψεσθε ηλθαν ουν και ειδαν που μενει και παρ αυτω εμειναν την ημεραν εκεινην ωρα ην ως δεκατη

John 1:39
39 He said to them, "Come, and you shall see." They came therefore and saw where he abode: and they abode with him that day, which hour was the tenth
[or "namely", "after the manner of", "according to the manner of", "to wit, the hour was the tenth"].

Already herein above we have the tenth hour of the day being singled out for something special: and not only that, but essentially spoken of as being equivalent to a day, (a yom of light, which is an hour), and in that day, which was the tenth yom-hour of the day, they abode with him where he abides. :)
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Matthew 20:1-16
1 For the kingdom of the heavens is like a certain one, a house Master, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing in the marketplace idle:
4 And to them he said, Go yourselves also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you: and they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing: and he said to them, Why do you stand here idle all the day?
7 They say to him, Because no one has hired us: he said to them, Go yourselves also into the vineyard.
8 And when late evening was come, the Master of the vineyard said to his steward, Call the laborers, and pay them their hire: beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every one a denarius.
10 And when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more: and they likewise received every one a denarius.
11 And when they received it, they murmured against the house Master:
12 Saying, These last have worked but one hour, and you have made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
13 But answering one of them, he said, Fellow, I do you no wrong: did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 Take up what is yours, and go your way: it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto you.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? or is your eye evil because I am good?
16 Thus shall it be: the last first, and the first last.


Notice the hours which are mentioned here: for this concerns the kingdom of the heavens. The early morning of Mat20:1 is no doubt the first hour of the day, but he does not mention it because not only is it obvious but because it is not one of the three hours of prayer, (Dan6:10). What is the first hour mentioned? It is the third hour of the day, (Mat20:3), and this is the hour of the morning oblation, the first of the twice-daily sacrifices from the Torah, and moreover it is the first hour of prayer, (Acts2:1-4 and Acts2:15 hints at this because the fullness of Pentecost had not come until the third hour of the day), and moreover it is the hour in which the Anointed One was crucified, (Mrk15:25), and the hours of prayer are three, (Dan6:10).

And what hours are mentioned next after the third hour? Both the sixth hour and the ninth hour are mentioned in Mat20:5. And what is the significance in each of these hours? The sixth hour is the second hour of prayer, (Acts10:9), and the ninth hour is the more commonly known final hour of prayer, that is, concerning the three major prayer times of the day, (Dan6:10, Acts3:1, 10:3, 10:30), and of course the ninth hour is likewise the time of the evening oblation, that is, the time of the evening sacrifice, (Dan9:21). And what happens at Golgotha between the sixth hour and the ninth hour? There is darkness over all the Land from the sixth hour to the ninth hour, (Mat27:45, Mrk15:33, Luk23:44), and in what hour was it that the Anointed One breathed his last and commended his Spirit(Testimony) unto the Father? It was the ninth hour: the time of the evening oblation, the evening sacrifice, and the evening hour of prayer, (Mat27:46-50, Mrk15:34-37, Luk23:44-46, Joh19:30 Dan9:21, Acts3:1, 10:3, 10:30).

Where therefore is the tenth hour in the above parable? And if the third hour of the day is the first hour of prayer then what is the tenth but the seventh according to the prayer times? The tenth hour of the day is also the seventh hour of the shabuim-weeks of Daniel, the daily Shabbat hour: and the Anointed One breathed his last just as that seven-tenth hour was commencing: and in it he rested.

Truly I say to you that no one worked in the tenth hour of this parable! :chuckle:
 
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