ECT Healing

[Totton Linnet]

Don't misunderstand me, I believe wholeheartedly in Divine healing, after all I've experienced it. I just don't see it in the atonement Biblically, historically or experientially.

The church was not set up for healing but preach the gospel as per the great commission. Healing confirms the gospel but is not primary.

Pete ��

I know you believe.

Every good thing comes from the atonement, without the atonement God cannot deal with man except to punish.

Specifically Matthew said "He bare our sicknesses and carried our diseases...he says this in relation to Christ's healing the sick.

The gospel is salvation, salvation for the whole man, body mind and soul.

I must dispute with you but the commission is "announce the good news to everyone, lay hands on the sick, cast out devils."

 

[revpete]

I know you believe.

Every good thing comes from the atonement, without the atonement God cannot deal with man except to punish.

Specifically Matthew said "He bare our sicknesses and carried our diseases...he says this in relation to Christ's healing the sick.

The gospel is salvation, salvation for the whole man, body mind and soul.

I must dispute with you but the commission is "announce the good news to everyone, lay hands on the sick, cast out devils."

I agree but preaching the good news is paramount. I think you meant body, soul and spirit otherwise you repeat yourself because the soul is defined as, the mind the will and the emotions.

You are correct of course Matthew did relate Isa 53 to Jesus healing the sick, as proof of His Messiahship. Yes, Christ is the propitiation for our sins. However, that doesn't prove healing is in the atonement.

Pete

 

[Totton Linnet]

Isaiah 53 is the atonement, the cross

 

[Livelystone]

Yes, that's possible but nothing to do with the original question.

Pete

You don't consider our atonement (Blood shed at Passover) to be connected with (but not automatically included) the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost AKA the start of when His Laws are written on our hearts?

Maybe I am not understanding your original question, or maybe we have different definitions for what the atonement consist of?

 

[revpete]

You don't consider our atonement (Blood shed at Passover) to be connected with (but not automatically included) the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost AKA the start of when His Laws are written on our hearts?

Maybe I am not understanding your original question, or maybe we have different definitions for what the atonement consist of?

All I ask is that you give your opinion on the original question together with your biblical reason. My definition of the atonement is the shed blood of Christ makes all who are saved at-one-ment with God. Atonement means a covering. Adam and Eve attempted to atonement for their sin but God had to shed the blood of an animal to make atonement for them, foreshadowing the once and for all atoning sacrifice of His only Begotten Son.

Pete

 

[revpete]

Isaiah 53 is the atonement, the cross

That's a statement without proof.

Pete

 

[Livelystone]

All I ask is that you give your opinion on the original question together with your biblical reason. My definition of the atonement is the shed blood of Christ makes all who are saved at-one-ment with God. Atonement means a covering. Adam and Eve attempted to atonement for their sin but God had to shed the blood of an animal to make atonement for them, foreshadowing the once and for all atoning sacrifice of His only Begotten Son.

Pete ��

I like your spelling mod (at-one-ment) :thumb:

IMO no one has received more than the least available resurrection benefit from the Christ atonement until they have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is backed in Re.11:1-2 KJV when the temple of God's construction that is us is not even considered as being started upon while a person is still in the outer court stage of their journey towards the unveiling of Christ in them (what the definition of the name of the Book of Revelation means) as well as what James says about the prayer of faith

Meanwhile look at all the healings taking place when people first accept Jesus in third world countries where the message of salvation via missionaries and healing go hand in hand (as in TL's Pentecostal video elsewhere on this forum). The reason they witness miracles that established churches today can only wish for is the message of salvation and healing being given by missionaries is not coming with all of the messed up false doctrines being taught by the modern day church.

I have posted elsewhere here on TOL of how Ingenious Indians of Peru when given the Bible in their language by a "preacher" not schooled by the parent church here in America had miracles on just about a daily basis but as soon as the church in America sent down an elder to school the new preacher in church doctrine the miracles stopped

Is it hard to figure out why they stopped? (shouldn't be).

You have picked a good subject and one that needs to be discussed further as to why the differences between the healings accompanying salvation in the NT are for all practical purposes lost on the church of today no matter the denominational flavor

 

[andyc]

The Hebrew word for healing in this verse means spiritual healing and at a stretch physical. However, I am not completely happy making God's Word fit my theology, when actually it's supposed to be the other way round.

Pete

At a stretch?
You sound like someone who's not fully persuaded by this. When dealing with the things of God, you must be fully persuaded, otherwise how can there be faith?

 

[andyc]

You clearly do not understand The Sovereignty of God, which is the biggest, most complex doctrine in scripture and sadly the most misunderstood. Everything comes through His Sovereignty! A person can receive nothing except it were given from above. Every good and every perfect gift comes from The Father of light.
..etc.

The sovereignty is determined in what has been provided by grace. God's sovereignty was in Christ triumphing over the effects of sin on the cross. Sickness and disease is as a result of sin. That's sovereignty, my friend. Jesus came that you might have life, and have it to the full. That's God's sovereign desire for you. But, you must claim it by faith. By his stripes we are healed. Healed from the affects of sin, which is spiritual, so that the entire man may be made whole. Spirit, soul, and body.
It is God's sovereign will that you be saved spiritually, mentally, and physically. Anything short of this, and your joy will not be complete.

Peter was referring to Joel's prophecy in chapter two of his writing. A gentle rebuke for their apparent ignorance of God's Word.

Pete

I understand God's word when it comes to healing.

 

[andyc]

Don't misunderstand me, I believe wholeheartedly in Divine healing, after all I've experienced it. I just don't see it in the atonement Biblically, historically or experientially.

The church was not set up for healing but preach the gospel as per the great commission. Healing confirms the gospel but is not primary.

Pete

You need to ask yourself, if healing is not in the atonement, what is the basis of it?

If it's God being random, how do you respond to the rebukes by Jesus towards those who wanted healing but struggled to believe?

If God is random regarding healing, there cannot be a promise to stand on. You really need to think this through. It seems to me that your understanding of faith is confused.

 

[patrick jane]

You need to ask yourself, if healing is not in the atonement, what is the basis of it?

If it's God being random, how do you respond to the rebukes by Jesus towards those who wanted healing but struggled to believe?

If God is random regarding healing, there cannot be a promise to stand on. You really need to think this through. It seems to me that your understanding of faith is confused.

do you have the gift of healing ? do you know and see someone that personally heals others ? what kinds of healing ? tongues too ? can you heal my tongues ? - atrol:

just kiddin'

 

[Totton Linnet]

You need to ask yourself, if healing is not in the atonement, what is the basis of it?

If it's God being random, how do you respond to the rebukes by Jesus towards those who wanted healing but struggled to believe?

If God is random regarding healing, there cannot be a promise to stand on. You really need to think this through. It seems to me that your understanding of faith is confused.

Quite so. Faith must have a firm foundation. and God is not finicky.

 

[revpete]

The sovereignty is determined in what has been provided by grace. God's sovereignty was in Christ triumphing over the effects of sin on the cross. Sickness and disease is as a result of sin. That's sovereignty, my friend. Jesus came that you might have life, and have it to the full. That's God's sovereign desire for you. But, you must claim it by faith. By his stripes we are healed. Healed from the affects of sin, which is spiritual, so that the entire man may be made whole. Spirit, soul, and body.
It is God's sovereign will that you be saved spiritually, mentally, and physically. Anything short of this, and your joy will not be complete.



I understand God's word when it comes to healing.

Sorry but you have it backwards, grace is not the grounds for Divine Sovereignty rather Divine Sovereignty is the grounds for grace. Those who are/will be saved were written in The Lamb's book of life (a metaphor) from before the foundation of the world. God determins all things after the council of His own will. He sovereignly elected those who will/would receive His grace.

I totally agree that it was God's Sovereign will being worked out in the crucifixion of His Son and that all sickness and disease is a product of original sin. However, this name it and claim it bunk is one of the most destructive, damaging and insidious teachings every to be propagated by the current angels of light such as Copland and co.

So, by your reasoning any believers who are sick are not living the christian life as God intended. This is simply not true scripturally or historically. Paul left a brother sick, Timothy suffered with his stomach and often infirmities Fanny Crosby was blind, there are many disabled believers today, all of whom did not live and are not living the Christian life they should be living. This reasoning is mistaken and insulting. However, I do thank you for your post.

Pete

 

[Totton Linnet]

A vast number of Gods people are perishing, not for sin, which Andy does not say, but for lack of knowledge.

Fanny Crosby never met Smith Wigglesworth....nor was healing at all taught, nor is it yet taught like it ought to be.

 

[Bright Raven]

A vast number of Gods people are perishing, not for sin, which Andy does not say, but for lack of knowledge.

Fanny Crosby never met Smith Wigglesworth....nor was healing at all taught, nor is it yet taught like it ought to be.

Yes.


Hosea 4:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

 

[andyc]

Sorry but you have it backwards, grace is not the grounds for Divine Sovereignty rather Divine Sovereignty is the grounds for grace.

But we are dealing with man receiving, where there is an active role to play. Grace is God's sovereignty regarding the offer, but the covenant is God's sovereignty regarding the answer.

Those who are/will be saved were written in The Lamb's book of life (a metaphor) from before the foundation of the world. God determins all things after the council of His own will. He sovereignly elected those who will/would receive His grace.

According to foreknowledge, not predetermination. There is no partiality with God.

I totally agree that it was God's Sovereign will being worked out in the crucifixion of His Son and that all sickness and disease is a product of original sin. However, this name it and claim it bunk is one of the most destructive, damaging and insidious teachings every to be propagated by the current angels of light such as Copland and co.

You need to take your eyes off people, and focus solely on what the word says about healing.

So, by your reasoning any believers who are sick are not living the christian life as God intended. This is simply not true scripturally or historically. Paul left a brother sick, Timothy suffered with his stomach and often infirmities Fanny Crosby was blind, there are many disabled believers today, all of whom did not live and are not living the Christian life they should be living. This reasoning is mistaken and insulting. However, I do thank you for your post.

Pete

We cannot know why people are sick, and cannot pass judgement. We are to edify, not condemn. However, I have made a decision to elevate God's word above everything I see and hear.
If the word says that Jesus took our infirmities and healed our diseases, I'm going to elevate that above your unbelief and humanistic sympathies.

 

[andyc]

A vast number of Gods people are perishing, not for sin, which Andy does not say, but for lack of knowledge.

Fanny Crosby never met Smith Wigglesworth....nor was healing at all taught, nor is it yet taught like it ought to be.

Yeah.
Unbelief can be as a result of things like, ignorance, deception, fear, or even defiance.
The psalmist said, "hope deferred makes the heart sick". The fear that God will not answer, even though we believe, could lead to overwhelming disappointment.
Such an attitude is from a wrong perspective of what scripture teaches. It's not a matter of, will God heal? but rather resting in the knowledge that God has healed.
When we enter this kind of rest, there is such an assurance in the heart, that we just know the answer will manifest anytime.

 

[Eric h]

If it's God being random, how do you respond to the rebukes by Jesus towards those who wanted healing but struggled to believe?

My mum went into coma, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound, the doctor said she had maybe a day to live. We thought we should call a priest although none of us really had a faith, the priest came, said some prayers, and her breathing changed. A few minutes after the priest left, mum came round and she lived another eleven years.

This was both a blessing and a curse, as she had endured multiple sclerosis and was paralysed from the neck down for around ten years before the coma.

But despite having to live another eleven years in this paralysed state, she did say she was not ready to die at the time of the coma.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Partial faith or limited faith does bring limited results

I prayed for a dear man who had just enough faith to allow prayer.

He had gangerene in his arm and the doctors were going to amputate the next day.

But the next morning the gangerine had moved from above and below the elbow to just above.

The doctors were astonished, they said this never happens, they postponed the operation.

When I visited the dear man was so excited, I prayed again and the next morning the gangerous matter was in his bed...his arm was healed.

Praise the Lord.

 

[Totton Linnet]

When we say sickness is caused by sin we mean the sin of Adam...ALL of man's woe was caused by Adam's sin.

But Paul teaches that we have been delivered from the curse of the law, you have to read Leviticus to discover what the curse for disobedience to the law was.

Poverty, sickness, failure....every kind of woe

Of COURSE our Lord has redeemed us from that when He took away our sins.

How UNLIKE God it would be to pardon our sin and not redeem us from the curse.

But faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If it isn't preached it can't be believed in.

We get a whole different sort of troubles when we decide to follow Jesus, we pick up our cross...that is persecution.