Epoisses
New member
Yes love is good and Jesus said by this all will know we are his disciples. Commandment/law/Sabbath keeping is bad and a rejection of Christ and his one time offering for all sin for all time. You are a deceiver.
Has the Law been done away with?
- Thread starter Jacob
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Yes love is good and Jesus said by this all will know we are his disciples. Commandment/law/Sabbath keeping is bad and a rejection of Christ and his one time offering for all sin for all time. You are a deceiver.
All of God's commands are about love of God and love of your neighbor.
We stay on topic, and the topic is this:
Has the Law been done away with?
...and not "Has the Law been done away with for Christians, " and not "Can the law justify us?...., and not.................
No scripture says that, despite your/anyone's spin to the contrary, and humanistic "arguments."
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I was never under Moses' Law, and most of the rest here weren't either. So it doesn't matter whether it was done away with or not, except to our Jewish friends.
The Bible teaches that Christians are not under the law nor are they subject to it,
Paul said to be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. He also said that the law does not justify, Galatians 3:11.
To be under the law is to be in bondage to sin. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE" Galatians 6:14.
Are you going to believe the Bible?
Paul said to be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. He also said that the law does not justify, Galatians 3:11.
To be under the law is to be in bondage to sin. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE" Galatians 6:14.
Are you going to believe the Bible?
You have acknowledged it may matter to others (and I say whether it matters to you or not) and the question is how we are all informed about what the truth is about these things as we read it or are taught it from scripture.
Being born under the Law may be different from whether or not a Christian is under the Law (for we may observe the Law even without being condemned by it, be it that we have been justified in Christ, died to sin and have been made alive to God in Christ Jesus). If sin has been dealt with in your life the Law has done it's job. You were guilty, and have been changed or transformed by God in Jesus His Son. So whereas once you could not obey if that is your view, since your sin debt has been paid you have been forgiven and sin has been taken care of in your life. What does it mean to be justified by God in Jesus Christ. Are we just with faith and not the Law and still with sin until we die? Or, can a person be born again and have a new life even apart from sin (but never apart from Christ). Would you think you can obey God's commands without being saved? Maybe we all should. But we are not saved by so doing. So then why not obey instead of waiting to be saved? Maybe that is a part of our salvation or sanctification, that our lives would be changed from bad to good, in more than just knowledge of having been saved and forgiven and granted eternal life. We have abundant life in Christ, whether the Spirit of God works differently in people these days or not.
Saved by the blood of Christ. Trusting God and obeying Him regardless of what people say or what you know about your salvation. Now learn about what salvation is if you feel you obey but don't know if you are saved.
Christians are not supposed to break the Law of God or the law of the land in which they live. Meaning, they know God's Law and what God has called them to, or they should. This has nothing to do with how we were once under the Law. Obeying God's commands, even if we obey a command found in the Law, or even if we are attempting to obey all of the Law we feel we can observe, is not the same as being under the Law (being under condemnation). We have freedom to obey God, having been forgiven. Does God judge us by the standard of the Law? It was by the Law that we were guilty. But we have been justified. Were we justified in regard to judgment greater than that of the Law or something? This is God's Law we are talking about. And God did give us His Law.
You apparently don't believe the scriptures.
If Paul was here he would say to you... "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, DO YOU NOT HEAR THE LAW?" Galatians 4:21.
How is anyone going to hear the Law if you say we should not? How do you come to believe anyone here wants to be under the Law? I see observing God's Law and observing God's commands as different from what is meant Biblically as to be under the Law. Can you say you observe God's commands but at the same time you do not observe the commands of God found in the Law?
Yes, Christians are not under, and never under, the law of Moses, as a "way of life." That is not equivalent to saying the law of Moses was done away with:
Galatians 3 KJV
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
1 Timothy 1:9 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
That "ungodly" was all of us(assuming you are saved), prior to justification.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Are you changing the question? I thought the question was whether the law had been done away with?
The way I figure, you can't do away with something that was never there.
God isn't sitting on high binding the law on every man and woman who is born. The only people bound by the law are the ones who assent to the law, and become part of the covenant of the law.
Since I haven't done that, the law is irrelevant to me, other than as an intellectual curiosity, in the same way as the Vedas or the Tao Te Ching.
Jarrod
Christians don't live by laws or rules. Christians live by faith and by Spirit.
If you live by the law you will be judged by the law.
The reason that Christians don't live by laws and rules is because they are already perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.
I think that you are on a holiness trek and trying to be good enough by obeying the commandments.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
You're right - they're not equivalent.
My answer to his question wasn't "yes" OR "no." It was closer to "your question is poorly formed."
Jarrod
You are talking about God's Law or not wanting to talk about it, while you equate its importance to that of false religion (which is not important for those seeking to understand God, His character, the Law which is a reflection of His character, and hopefully the rest of the Bible).
The truth that we learn from scripture, of which I was speaking, is for Jews and Gentiles, whether you assent to the law or feel you should or feel others would want you to do so. It's not about assent to God's Law. That is not the subject. I think you are saying that Jew or not some people believe the Law ought to have an important place in their life.
Not at all. I feel you are saying that if you don't live by the law you will not be judged by it.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Let me try it a different way.
Are you bound to abide by the laws of the country of Australia? What if I told you that they have good and moral laws, which are useful for discerning right from wrong? Would that make a difference? No?
That's how I think about the laws of bronze-age Israel.
I mean, I agree with a lot of what it says there. Marrying two sisters for the purpose of pitting them against each other as rivals is probably wrong (though interesting). Some points seems obscure. I'm not sure why the king is prohibited from accumulating horses. Others seem obsolete, like animal sacrifice.
But isn't the point of a law that you have to do what it says? Because I don't need to do what that law says. Nobody is forcing me, and I didn't agree to do it for any personal reasons.
Nobody has "done away with" it, because it just wasn't there in the first place.
Jarrod
Are you bound to abide by the laws of the country of Australia? What if I told you that they have good and moral laws, which are useful for discerning right from wrong? Would that make a difference? No?
That's how I think about the laws of bronze-age Israel.
I mean, I agree with a lot of what it says there. Marrying two sisters for the purpose of pitting them against each other as rivals is probably wrong (though interesting). Some points seems obscure. I'm not sure why the king is prohibited from accumulating horses. Others seem obsolete, like animal sacrifice.
But isn't the point of a law that you have to do what it says? Because I don't need to do what that law says. Nobody is forcing me, and I didn't agree to do it for any personal reasons.
Nobody has "done away with" it, because it just wasn't there in the first place.
Jarrod
Fair enough, Jarrod.
The Law did not go away, Jesus said it quite plainly. Not a single letter, till the end of time.
Yet
Paul says that the Law is the yoke of slavery which Christ freed us from.
A lot of people's theology gets screwed up here- it's not that the Law has been done away, it is something that Christians do not need to personally practice. However, government is still subject to the Law, and it is practiced every day to some degree or another.
Yet
Paul says that the Law is the yoke of slavery which Christ freed us from.
A lot of people's theology gets screwed up here- it's not that the Law has been done away, it is something that Christians do not need to personally practice. However, government is still subject to the Law, and it is practiced every day to some degree or another.
The Law is there. It came to us from God. Are you saying you simply were not born under it? If you are a Gentile, I can understand that you were not born under the Law. According to the New Testament scripture, I believe you will be able to see that Christians are not without God's law. If you learn from Christ Jesus, as even a Gentile can do, and the apostles and prophets, and the evangelists, pastors, and teachers, and others in the church who have been gifted by the Spirit of God (all true believers have been, we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us), you will do well. If you are in the church Jesus established you will do well to learn from others in the church. If you chose to learn from New Testament Scriptures, God be with you and I hope you will be obey to learning about God's character in the Law. Much of the New Testament reveals to us what the Law is all about. The new covenant is not like the old, but you can learn about God's commands and His character. Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. No one was ever saved by works, is my belief. There are other verses that say this. It's not just in one place. I am saying you should obey God and obey Jesus God's Son. There may be others in the church you should obey, being obedient to the Holy Spirit especially in regard to the commands of God found in the scriptures and never opposed to them (that would not be the Holy Spirit). The Law, the teaching of Jesus including the new covenant in the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit and teachers and others in the church are all about obeying God and obeying our neighbor, our fellow man. You need to be saved, not just know what God's commands are. Salvation is in the blood of Jesus in that He died for you. He said, speaking of Himself, this is the new covenant in My blood. This was at the last meal He had with His disciples when He celebrated the Passover with them, and He was referring to the fruit of the vine they were drinking saying it related to the death that He was going to die for them. Now we have the new covenant, which is not like the old. See Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB. The new covenant is not like the old covenant (which is a reference to the covenant God made with the nation of Israel). The new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and now Gentiles are included in that. The people broke the old covenant, but God said He would make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Shalom.
Yes!
For salvation's sake anyway...
Romans 10: 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
The law, however, does have it's place...
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Now, all of that has to do with righteousness and salvation, which I think is what you're driving at with this thread, but there is another aspect of the law that is still fully in effect and that nations will be held accountable for. That being criminal justice. God tells us just exactly what justice looks like in regards to dealing with criminals. This country forgot long ago what justice looks like. Anything that comes out of our justice system that happens to be just, is simply accidental. Be that as it may, God delegated the authority to the governing official to enact justice upon the criminal back when Noah landed the Ark, long before the Abrahamic Covenant or the Law of Moses and that authority will persist until His return when He will take the reigns of government into His own hands.
Romans 1: 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. The pertinent verse to quote from Jesus is Matthew 15:24