ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

[Sonnet]

Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus' resurrection to unbelievers:

Acts 17:18
A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.

Only if The Good News of Christ's death and resurrection actually pertains to all men without exception could Paul preach in such a way. If but one human was excluded from its provision - and Paul had understood this to be the case - then Paul would not have said what he said.

It has also been proven that Paul told unbelievers about Christ's death 'for our sins.' No one hearing such preaching could ever believe that anyone is excluded.

Not one verse explicitly teaches limited atonement.

 

[Crucible]

Hey, Cruc, you sure have a low amount of "Thanks" buddy.

I didn't know this was a popularity contest :idunno:

Frankly, a poster who does nothing but troll having nearly 9000 thanks makes me unconcerned with that forum tool in general.

And
I do have you on ignore, little inserts still pop up showing that you've posted. You still take up the whole page- and I can view them by pressing a button.

 

[Sonnet]

Number of verses that explicitly teach limited atonement?

Zero.

 

[Crucible]

Number of verses that explicitly teach limited atonement?

Zero.

The entire Bible collectively teaches limited atonement, from the lineages of the Old Testament and all through the New.

John 17:6-8
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

 

[Sonnet]

The entire Bible collectively teaches limited atonement, from the lineages of the Old Testament and all through the New. Pay attention throughout the whole:

Assertion.

John 17:6-8
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

Jesus is speaking about his disciples. Nothing whatsoever about a limited atonement.
Sure, God knows all - but not one person was predetermined to damnation.

Still no refutation of John 3:14-15

 

[Sonnet]

Here is explicit:
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Sonnet]

The entire Bible collectively teaches limited atonement, from the lineages of the Old Testament and all through the New.

John 17:6-8
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

In affirming limited atonement you include the possibility of Jesus not dying for you Crucible.
Is that okay with you?

 

[Crucible]

Still no refutation of John 3:14-15

You just cherry pick verses and ignore the message at large.

And you're talking about 'assertion'- well, what the Hell have you few been doing? You all haven't actually offered theology- that's ALL you are doing is asserting.

 

[Sonnet]

You just cherry pick verses and ignore the message at large.

And you're talking about 'assertion'- well, what the Hell have you few been doing? You all haven't actually offered theology- that's ALL you are doing is asserting.

Nope - it's not an assertion to say that Paul preached belief in the resurrection to unbelievers. That Paul did so is a fact. You cannot preach such, with integrity, if Christ did not die for all and resurrect for all.

Your position is untenable - quite obviously.

 

[Sonnet]

You just cherry pick verses and ignore the message at large.

Refutes nothing.

 

[Sonnet]

The entire Bible collectively teaches limited atonement, from the lineages of the Old Testament and all through the New.

John 17:6-8
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

It's extraordinary that you preach that Christ did not die for all men and thus destroy the Good News even whilst you attempt to proclaim it ! Who's going to respond to that message?

Incredible.

 

[Sonnet]

You just cherry pick verses and ignore the message at large.

How about you actually attempt to deal with the FACT that Jesus crucifixion is JUST AS the raising up of the bronze serpent - where not a single Israelite that was bitten was without access to the cure. They could, all of them, look to the serpent. Whether they looked or not, the cure was there for them.

Bitten Israelites translate to sinning humans...the source of the analogy points to the target of the analogy - that's how analogies work.

 

[Sonnet]

An explicit refutation of limited atonement.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Sonnet]

She could care less to investigate or learn from others. She has a one-track mind and agenda, & it is only to deflect from Truth.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4702626&viewfull=1#post4702626

 

[Cross Reference]

You people are NOT making the distinction between "Redemption", which is at fact, no faith required, and "Salvation" which requires faith in the substance of the "fact" that will enable God's Grace to manifest His intention, i.e., John 17:3 KJV.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Nope - it's not an assertion to say that Paul preached belief in the resurrection to unbelievers. That Paul did so is a fact. You cannot preach such, with integrity, if Christ did not die for all and resurrect for all.

Your position is untenable - quite obviously.

The hearers of the gospel are often a mixed bunch, but God only speaks to the believers of the message.

LA

 

[chrysostom]

God only speaks to the believers of the message.

LA

how do you know that?

 

[Sonnet]

The hearers of the gospel are often a mixed bunch, but God only speaks to the believers of the message.

LA

Limited atonement would make Paul's preaching disingenuous. Paul's desire for his brethren's salvation (Romans 10:1ff) was genuine - so his preaching would have to be too.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

how do you know that?

Because God speaks to the heart of men who believe, but to the hardened hearts of unrepentant sinners Gods voice is not discernible.

Men must receive those sent before they can hear Gods voice within.

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

 

[Sonnet]

The hearers of the gospel are often a mixed bunch, but God only speaks to the believers of the message.

LA

The true gospel - that Christ died for all - that is powerful. The Calvinist's Gospel is eviscerated.