Why didn't you address the numerous verses, that I/others, gave you re. sin nature baldy?
ECT God Made Mankind Upright and That Contradicts the Theory of Original Sin
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Why didn't you address the numerous verses, that I/others, gave you re. sin nature baldy?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Sin nature? Of course once a person sins then he has a sin nature. No one denies that sonny boy. But why do you deny that the LORD made mankind upright?
Are do you really think that all people are made upright but yet they are created with a sin nature?
Survey Genesis 1:26-28 KJV, Genesis 5:2-3.
Genesis 1:26-28 KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Thus, initially, at the first, the name “Adam” belonged equally to male and female. The LORD God said: “Let us make man (or “Adam,”–the same word) in our likeness;” and the scripture enfolds,“In the image of God made HE HIM(my emphasis), male and female made HE THEM(my emphasis).” Details.....in the second clause, man is spoken of as both singular and plural.
Thus...
Genesis 5:2 KJV
2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Adam was born in God's image, after His likeness, per Genesis 1:26-27 KJV-upright. However, we are begat in fallen Adam's own likeness, and after his image, "The Adams Family," per:
Genesis 5 KJV
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Thus, Ecclesiastes 7 KJV
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man(His original creation-man-Adam and Eve-my note)upright; but they(man-Adam and Eve-my note) have sought out many inventions
The LORD God made mankind, Adam/Eve upright, but they have sought out many inventions. Again, the LORD God created man in his own image and likeness, however, subsequently, when the LORD God had "sabbathed," in creating the earth, animals, and finally, his "crown jewel," so to speak, Adam, The LORD God pronounced, declared in Genesis 1:31,"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Thus, the meaning of the first part of Eccl. 7:29 KJV-Adam and Eve, "man," were created upright,in His image and likeness, not his progeny, i.e., us, who are begat in fallen Adam's own likeness, and after his image, "The Adams Family." The second part of Eccl. 7:29 is referring to Adam and Eve seeking out their own inventions/schemes, to disobey the LORD God, per Genesis 3 KJV:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Thus man, Adam and Eve, via the prompting of the "subtil serpent"(Genesis 3:1), who is satan, the devil, desired to be wise as the LORD God himself...."ye shall be as gods"-Genesis 3:5 KJV. Man, not satisfied, not content with knowing “good,” he would know “evil,” not considering that the LORD God prohibited light and darkness to exist together. Since that first "invention," scheme,device, whereby he/man/Adam and Eve "fell," he has “sought out many inventions;” whereby to remedy,solve, rectify, if possible, the first evil which he brought upon himself. Thus, "the Adam's Family," his progeny, now do the same, due to him passing on his fallen sin nature, as we seek the same, and the LORD God's heart was "broken," as He grieved, as it must have been at Calvary....To wit:
Genesis 6 KJV
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Thus, in "the days of Noah"(1 Peter 3:20 KJV), the LORD God was so saddened at His ruined, "corrupted" creation due to the a "defect" within themselves-the sin nature....
Deuteronomy 32:5 KJV
They have corrupted themselves,their spot is not the spot of his children:
they are a perverse and crooked generation.
And thus, Ecclesiastes 1:9 KJV, as man still seeks out methods, invents new ways in which to walk, forsaking the upright way in which the LORD God originally placed them.
Yes, the LORD God hath made man, our first "parents, Adam and Eve, "man," upright, without any imperfection/corruption, conformable to the LORD God's own nature, and will, after his own likeness, image,..."good....very good.".
They, man/Adam and Eve, our first parents, "post fall," and after them their posterity, progeny, "The Adams Family," follows their steps, seeking out many inventions, not being content, not being "satisfied,"
Proverbs 27:20 KJV
Hell and destruction are never full;so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
...with what they were graciously given at allegedly "higher, more cultured" things, and sought out new ways of making themselves more wise and happy than the LORD God had made them, and thus willingly hearkened to the suggestions of the subtil serpent. And we are, despite denials to the contrary, "after its/his own kind"(Genesis)sinful and wretched children of the devil,"by nature the children of wrath by nature"(Ephesians 2:3 KJV), as their is no "in between," after their example, are still prone to forsake the certain rule/reign of the word of God/the Word of God,...
Luke 19 KJV
14 We will not have this man to reign over us.
...and the God designed way of joy, and to seek their own new methods and inventions of attaining to "satisfaction," contentment, even such as King Solly discussed at length in this same book of Ecclesiastes
Genesis 1:26-28 KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Thus, initially, at the first, the name “Adam” belonged equally to male and female. The LORD God said: “Let us make man (or “Adam,”–the same word) in our likeness;” and the scripture enfolds,“In the image of God made HE HIM(my emphasis), male and female made HE THEM(my emphasis).” Details.....in the second clause, man is spoken of as both singular and plural.
Thus...
Genesis 5:2 KJV
2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Adam was born in God's image, after His likeness, per Genesis 1:26-27 KJV-upright. However, we are begat in fallen Adam's own likeness, and after his image, "The Adams Family," per:
Genesis 5 KJV
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Thus, Ecclesiastes 7 KJV
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man(His original creation-man-Adam and Eve-my note)upright; but they(man-Adam and Eve-my note) have sought out many inventions
The LORD God made mankind, Adam/Eve upright, but they have sought out many inventions. Again, the LORD God created man in his own image and likeness, however, subsequently, when the LORD God had "sabbathed," in creating the earth, animals, and finally, his "crown jewel," so to speak, Adam, The LORD God pronounced, declared in Genesis 1:31,"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Thus, the meaning of the first part of Eccl. 7:29 KJV-Adam and Eve, "man," were created upright,in His image and likeness, not his progeny, i.e., us, who are begat in fallen Adam's own likeness, and after his image, "The Adams Family." The second part of Eccl. 7:29 is referring to Adam and Eve seeking out their own inventions/schemes, to disobey the LORD God, per Genesis 3 KJV:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Thus man, Adam and Eve, via the prompting of the "subtil serpent"(Genesis 3:1), who is satan, the devil, desired to be wise as the LORD God himself...."ye shall be as gods"-Genesis 3:5 KJV. Man, not satisfied, not content with knowing “good,” he would know “evil,” not considering that the LORD God prohibited light and darkness to exist together. Since that first "invention," scheme,device, whereby he/man/Adam and Eve "fell," he has “sought out many inventions;” whereby to remedy,solve, rectify, if possible, the first evil which he brought upon himself. Thus, "the Adam's Family," his progeny, now do the same, due to him passing on his fallen sin nature, as we seek the same, and the LORD God's heart was "broken," as He grieved, as it must have been at Calvary....To wit:
Genesis 6 KJV
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Thus, in "the days of Noah"(1 Peter 3:20 KJV), the LORD God was so saddened at His ruined, "corrupted" creation due to the a "defect" within themselves-the sin nature....
Deuteronomy 32:5 KJV
They have corrupted themselves,their spot is not the spot of his children:
they are a perverse and crooked generation.
And thus, Ecclesiastes 1:9 KJV, as man still seeks out methods, invents new ways in which to walk, forsaking the upright way in which the LORD God originally placed them.
Yes, the LORD God hath made man, our first "parents, Adam and Eve, "man," upright, without any imperfection/corruption, conformable to the LORD God's own nature, and will, after his own likeness, image,..."good....very good.".
They, man/Adam and Eve, our first parents, "post fall," and after them their posterity, progeny, "The Adams Family," follows their steps, seeking out many inventions, not being content, not being "satisfied,"
Proverbs 27:20 KJV
Hell and destruction are never full;so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
...with what they were graciously given at allegedly "higher, more cultured" things, and sought out new ways of making themselves more wise and happy than the LORD God had made them, and thus willingly hearkened to the suggestions of the subtil serpent. And we are, despite denials to the contrary, "after its/his own kind"(Genesis)sinful and wretched children of the devil,"by nature the children of wrath by nature"(Ephesians 2:3 KJV), as their is no "in between," after their example, are still prone to forsake the certain rule/reign of the word of God/the Word of God,...
Luke 19 KJV
14 We will not have this man to reign over us.
...and the God designed way of joy, and to seek their own new methods and inventions of attaining to "satisfaction," contentment, even such as King Solly discussed at length in this same book of Ecclesiastes
Non responsive. You missed it-sin nature at birth, baldy-the topic of your thread.
Jer's MO on TOL-humanism/sophistry: Do you really think there is a hell, resurrection,that all people are made upright but yet they are created with a sin nature=What he does not understand, he will not believe/Are you still beating your wife?
Slick...like Genesis 3:1 KJV.
My brilliant post #21, from one of the giants of mid Acts dispensationalism. It is not for the kid, Jer Pate, Jr., since he cannot bear meat. Stick with the milk, baldy.
Now-Answer every verse, I/others, provided in a previous thread, which has the same subject, as does every thread of yours, Pate, Jr. You've ignored most of them. Why did you not address the dozens, and dozens, numerous verses, throughout Genesis-Revelation, re. the sin nature at birth?
Do you really think that children, when born, who are cranky, self centered, ....need to be taught that?
Fun!
Job 1:1 KJV
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 KJV
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 KJV
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The Kid Jer Pate,Jr.: Job was only 1 day old at this time.....
Jer Pate, Jr.: Sir (Fill in the blank) says about these verses....The Greek lexicon translates......Another version reads.....We read in the Pulpit Commentary...............................................................................................................................................................................
Cricket....cricket...cricket...
Chew slowly this meat, Jer Pate, Jr. Nah....Stick with the milk.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 KJV
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 KJV
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The Kid Jer Pate,Jr.: Job was only 1 day old at this time.....
Jer Pate, Jr.: Sir (Fill in the blank) says about these verses....The Greek lexicon translates......Another version reads.....We read in the Pulpit Commentary...............................................................................................................................................................................
Cricket....cricket...cricket...
Chew slowly this meat, Jer Pate, Jr. Nah....Stick with the milk.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Jerry,
I don't have the ability to properly counter these arguments (at the moment, at least) but let me ask you a big picture question. IF - as you say - man is (redeemably) good and freely chooses evil, then what is the necessity of the cross?
Let me put it another way. If man simply chooses evil now and is not irredeemably evil (as is; in his current state) then what guarantee is there that the new heavens and new earth won't become Eden all over again? What will keep this new man from falling and being tossed out of the Paradise of God?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to theory of Original Sin infants and little children are born spiritually dead and cannot enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again. But the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom belongs to little children:
"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).
According to your ideas those little children had no chance of being in the kingdom despite the words of the Lord Jesus that the kingdom belongs to them. At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:
"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).
If the idea of Original Sin is correct then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that the Lord Jesus was teaching that unless a person becomes spiritually dead then they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven! That is patently ridiculous and common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus did not believe that infants come into this world under the just wrath and curse of God.
Fun, fun, and more fun!!!
Paul proposed that eternal life is a gift. You are obviously saying that is not true. Why?
Did Jesus not sin by his own strength? No.
We are rewarded for our works, but life is a gift from our parents and from our Father.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Scriptures reveal that all people have the ability to obey God but they do not have the "will" to obey Him.
Sooner or later a person will decide to go his own way and not God's way and he sins. Both Adam and Eve were created with free will and they were made upright just as we are and they both decided to go their own way and not God's way.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never denied that eternal life is a gift.
beloved57
Well-known member
Before Adams sinfulness became manifested, yes he was in a right standing with God, upright and straight forward, because he hadnt yet sined or transgressed. But Adam in his best estate, before the fall, was altogether vanity Ps 39:5
Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man[Adam] at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man[Adam] at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So in the new heavens and new earth (wherein dwelleth righteousness), men will be just as likely to (freely) stray from the truth?
Non responsive-your method of "arguing:"
Do you really think that children, when born, who are cranky, self centered, ....need to be taught that?
Are you still beating your wife, or Pancho, your domestic partner?
According to Jer., God sends peopled to hell, for an everlasting torment.
An Atheist, to Jer.: Do you really think that God sends people to hell, for an everlasting torment.
Jer: Well, uh, urr, ...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You overlook the fact that all of mankind was made upright:
"So I turned my mind to understand, to investigate and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and the madness of folly. I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare. 'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you still stalk people who do not agree with you, sonny boy?
Why don't you stalk the Lord Jesus since He said that the kingdom belongs to little children?
Why will you not believe Him?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What truth?
Someone said, "If people aren't capable of not sinning then why would the Scriptures reveal that a person can, at least in theory, obtain eternal life by his own works or deeds?"
Are you saying that wasn't you?
Are you working for eternal life?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Will people sin in the New Heavens and New Earth?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
For those who are sinners and believe then eternal life is a free gift. But the following is what I was referring to earlier. Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. We can see a similiar conversation in the book of Matthew where the Lord Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt.19:17).
What the Lord Jesus said there is either true or it is not. And since the Lord Jesus would never say anything that is not true we can understand that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own works.
People have the ability to keep God's laws perfectly but not the "will" to do so.