ECT "Friends in High Places" - The Saints in Heaven

[Trump Gurl]

https://kgov.com/bel/20160330

Which should I choose: The 2,000 year old teachings of Christianity still practiced by most Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, or some nobody named Bob? That's a tough one.

Oh I see: "Bob Enyart discusses the tragic veneration of Mary by Roman Catholics and the reality that she is not omniscient"

Basically, Bobby Boy lies. Catholics do not teach that Mary is omniscient. The Church teaches that she is a human being like you and me and that she has no special powers.

Bobby should be ashamed of himself.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Which should I choose: The 2,000 year old teachings of Christianity still practiced by most Christians, Catholic and Orthodox,

There's that ugly appeal to tradition rearin' its ugly head again!

or some nobody named Bob?

Some nobody?

You mean Bob Enyart? The owner of TOL?

That's a tough one.

No, you shouldn't believe Pastor Enyart just because he's Bob Enyart.

You should test what he says against scripture to see if it's true or not.

Oh I see: "Bob Enyart discusses the tragic veneration of Mary by Roman Catholics and the reality that she is not omniscient"

Do you agree that veneration of people who are not God, who are/were sinners in need of a Savior is wrong?

Basically, Bobby Boy lies.

Calling Pastor Enyart a liar doesn't make him one.

Instead of jumping directly to insults and libel (especially of the owner of the site you are currently posting on), how about you actually listen to what he says?

Or are you a hypocrite for spamming catholic videos, expecting everyone else to watch them, yet refuse to listen to a single Bob Enyart Live show on this topic?

Catholics do not teach that Mary is omniscient.

Perhaps not intentionally, yet that is the logical consequence of believing that Mary can A) can hear the prayers of millions of people around the world simultaneously and B) even understand the people who pray to her, in that she understands their language. Omniscience is required to be able to do those things.

The Church teaches that she is a human being like you and me and that she has no special powers.

Then why do you place her on a pedestal ABOVE everyone else, NEXT TO CHRIST on HIS throne?

The consequence of teaching that Mary is to be venerated and prayed to is that people will (unintentionally) assign to her more than she is, such as being able to hear their prayers, let alone understand them.

Bobby should be ashamed of himself.

Pastor Enyart used to be catholic. He was an altar boy. He knows what he's talking about. But don't take his word for it, nor mine. Test what he says against the evidence, instead of just dismissing it out of hand and mocking him.

 

[Trump Gurl]

There's that ugly appeal to tradition rearin' its ugly head again!

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught

Calling Pastor Enyart a liar doesn't make him one.

But his lies do.

 

[JudgeRightly]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught

You misunderstand.

I have nothing against holding to tradition IF it's true.

But that's not what you were doing.

What you were doing is saying that BECAUSE your position is tradition, therefore it is correct. That is a logical fallacy, and invalidates your entire argument, even if your reasoning based on that assumption is correct.

In other words...

No, your position is not true just because it's tradition.

That's why I said don't take Bob's word for it, don't take mine. Study it out for yourself, instead of appealing to tradition and simply saying that your position is correct because it's tradition.

But his lies do.

Which lies, specifically?

From the following two programs, could you please just give a timestamp from each where Bob lied about something?

https://kgov.com/bel/20160330
https://kgov.com/mary-on-bel-2006

And once you've specified the alleged lies...

What evidence do you have that he's lying? Lay out your case.

 

[Trump Gurl]

You misunderstand.

Nah, I don't think so.

Which lies, specifically?

The one I quoted, where he claims that we believe she is omniscient.

You people in this forum are absolutely amazing. You willfully swallow lies that are obvious lies.

You know what you guys are? You are spiritual Democrats. Seriously. The same ways that Liberals swallow the dumbest fake news lies about Republicans, you swallow dumb lies about the Catholic Church. It is amazing that you don't recognize your own enemy in the mirror.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nah, I don't think so.

Yet you refuse to engage the discussion rationally.

Why?

The one I quoted, where he claims that we believe she is omniscient.

Do you believe that Mary:

A) Is aware of every single prayer from the millions of people who pray to her (in that she can hear all of them individually?
And
B) (if A is so) can even understand those prayers in their original language (in other words, that she can understand all languages)?
And
C) does not have to be omniscient to be able to do both A and B?

 

[oatmeal]

Saints in heaven who behold God are not dead. Your post is stupid.

Please refer to a scripture.

No every one is as silly and gullible as you think them to be

 

[Trump Gurl]

Yet you refuse to engage the discussion rationally.

That's your MO. You post false statements and then accuse the other side when your lies are dismissed. Its a childish game you play and I won't engage on your level.

Every point has already been addressed ahead of time in this thread starter:

As I said in another thread, I see we need a little education here on asking our fellow Christians to pray for us, and I see we also need a little education here on the fact that the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ whether the members be in heaven or on earth. I shall oblige momentarily:

Friends in High Places
By Tim Staples - source link

(used with permission)

Some Christians usually voice four main objections about praying to saints:

• If we are supposed to pray to saints, why does Jesus command us to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:9? The Bible says we are to pray to God. Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them instead of God.
• Deuteronomy 18:10-11 and similar verses of Scripture condemn necromancy. If necromancy means "communicating with the dead," it would seem to condemn praying to saints.
• First Timothy 2:5 clearly states "there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." And Hebrews 7:24-25 says, "But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." If Christ is our unique mediator/intercessor, then why would any Christian seek the intercession of saints? Why would I go to a saint, even if I could, when I can go straight to Christ?
• It is impossible for us to pray to saints anyway because they would have to be God in order to be able to hear and answer multiple prayers at the same time!

Worship or Entreaty?

When Catholics say they pray to saints, they are talking about something essentially different from praying to God. We use the same word for both, but each kind of prayer is very different in nature. Prayer to God includes the worship that is owed him alone. Prayer to saints includes the honor that is their due, but never worship. In that sense, Catholics can agree with Protestants that prayer to God is unique. The problem here is, at least in part, semantics.

Any good dictionary will tell you prayer can simply mean a petition or entreaty from one person to another. It does not necessarily mean there is worship involved. Earlier forms of English presented less difficulty with the word. One could say to another, "Pray tell…" or, "I pray thee, my Lord…" Ironically, we see several examples of this usage in the King James Bible—a Bible many Fundamentalists hold in especially high regard. For example, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in 1 Kings 2:20, she says: "I pray thee, say me not nay." There is no question here of whether Bathsheba was worshipping her son! She was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints.


What Is Necromancy?

Without any doubt Scripture condemns "necromancy." Consider Deuteronomy 18:10-12:

There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord (emphasis added).​

The problem arises with the attempt to apply the term necromancy indiscriminately to mean all manner of communication with those who have died. This is an improper usage of the term. Dictionaries define necromancy as "conjuring up spirits" or "communication with the spirits of the dead in order to foretell the future, black magic or sorcery." When Catholics pray to saints, we do not "conjure up" spirits or tell fortunes. In fact, the Catholic Church is in complete agreement with the Bible when it condemns consulting "mediums" and "wizards."

Protestants who claim that God prohibits communicating with the dead in any sense run into a serious problem. Jesus would clearly be guilty in Luke 9:29-31:

And as was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.​

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was a dead guy! And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the Redemption. There is no contradiction here as long as one makes the distinction that is very clear in Scripture: there is an essential difference between going to "mediums" or "wizards" to conjure up the spirits of the dead and communicating—as Jesus did—with those we either hope (if they have not been canonized) or believe (if they have been canonized) died in friendship with God.

I should note here that many Evangelicals will say it is not wrong to communicate with the dead in any context. It would only be wrong if that contact originates from the one who is living on earth. In other words, the communication would have to be initiated by either God or by the angel or saint at God’s direction.

This argument fails for the simple reason that Jesus was the one who initiated the communication with Moses and Elijah in Luke 9. Some may say, "Well, he is God, so he can do that." Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him.

The New Testament presents other examples of believers on earth who initiate communication with saints and angels in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Some refer to chapter 11 as "the hall of faith" wherein the lives of the Old Testament saints are recounted. As chapter 12 begins, the inspired author encourages a persecuted church to consider that they are "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" and that they must "run the race" of faith set before them. Then, beginning in verse 18, he encourages them by recalling the lofty nature of their covenant—the New Covenant—which is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…
But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…​

Notice, in the Old Covenant the People of God approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, when we approach God either in private prayer or liturgically, we have a radical change for the better. "But you have come to … and to … and to … and to." In the same way we "come to" God and Jesus we also "come to" the angels, and to "the spirits of just men made perfect." Those are the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. And we approach them all by way of prayer!

The book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth. Revelation 5:8-14 reads:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped.​

These "elders" are offering the prayers from believers living on earth symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. Obviously, these prayers are initiated by the living on earth. Is this necromancy? Absolutely not! This is New Covenant Christianity.


What Part of One Doesn’t Make Sense?

The Catholic Church teaches Jesus Christ is our one mediator/intercessor. He is the only mediator, strictly speaking, because he is the only person in the universe who can mediate between the two parties needing to be reconciled. He is God, thus he has the infinite power required to appease God. He is man, thus he can make fitting atonement for the sin of man. Though this mediation is incommunicable in a strict sense, it does not preclude secondary mediators in Christ by way of participation.

The context of 1 Timothy 2 demonstrates this to be true. Just before St. Paul declared Christ to be our one, unique mediator/intercessor, he commanded all Christians to be intercessors (or mediators) in verses 1-2.

Further, the very definition of a priest is "a mediator between God and men." All Christians are priests! All are not ministerial priests, but all Christians are priests nonetheless. First Peter 2:5,9 declares:

And like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.​

It follows then, that all Christians are mediators in a participatory sense in what Christ alone is by nature and absolutely.

Why would I go to the saints when I can go straight to God? The answer is not an either/or proposition. It’s both/and! One could say just as well: Why would I ask my brother in Christ to intercede for me when I can go to Christ, the perfect intercessor? The Catholic answer is: because God commands us to pray for one another. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). God, in his providential plan, has chosen to use unworthy sinners like you and me to minister his grace and healing to one another.


Are Catholics God-Makers?

This final question claims Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them. This sounds like a repeat of the first question, but it’s not. The first question considered giving what is perceived as divine honor to the saints. This objection says Catholics attribute infinite—and therefore divine—power to the saints: "It would be impossible for any saint to hear the prayers of thousands or even millions of people at the same time and respond. Even more, 2 Chronicles 6:30 tells us ‘[God] alone knowest the hearts of the children of men.’ So how could saints hear the silent prayers of millions at the same time?"

The objector claims it would require infinite power to be able to accomplish what Catholics claim the saints can accomplish. Only God is infinite. Therefore, it is irrational—and sinful—to pray to saints.

The simplest Catholic response would be to challenge our Protestant friends to believe what God says in Scripture. Remember Revelation 5:8?

And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints...​

These twenty-four elders are human beings in heaven and they are depicted as "each one [having] vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Each one of them was responding to multiple prayers from multiple people at the same time. These saints in heaven somehow have the power to do what to some may seem impossible. We would do well to recall the words of the Archangel Gabriel at this juncture: "With God all things are possible" (cf. Luke 1:37). If we have faith, we will have no problem believing God’s word over our own feeble and fallible intellects.


Let’s Get Metaphysical

So far, so good, but we still need to square all of these texts, as well as give some reasons for the faith we see depicted Revelation 5. Three basic areas of misunderstanding need to be cleared up.

First, there’s the problem with saints hearing multiple prayers at the same time. Quite simply, time is not an issue to the saints because they are outside of time. They don’t need any time to respond. Second, we need to ask the question: Would it require infinite power to hear the prayers of, let’s say, one billion people? The answer is yes and no. On one level we can say one billion is a finite number, so by nature the task would not require infinite power. However, it is necessary for one to be omniscient if we are talking about the one whose power is responsible for the phenomenon. In other words, omniscience would be required for God to accomplish this because he is the first cause. However, omniscience and omnipotence are not required of those to whom God grants limited power with his divine assistance to be able to accomplish that which is beyond their natural abilities.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers this question succinctly when he says the ability to perform actions that transcend nature comes from a "created light of glory received into [the] created intellect" (cf. Summa Theologiae I:12:7). It would require infinite power to "create the light" or the grace given to empower man to act beyond nature. Only God can do that. But it does not require infinite power to passively receive that light. As long as what is received is not infinite by nature or does not require infinite power to comprehend, it would not be beyond man’s ability to receive. Therefore, this "created light," given by God to empower men to be able hear a finite number of prayers, is reasonable as well as biblical.


A Good Ol’ Heart to Heart

But what about the fact that "only God knowest the hearts of the children of men" (2 Chr. 6:30)? In order to answer prayers "from the hearts of men," wouldn’t Mary and the saints have to be able to "know the hearts of the children of men?" It is true that only God knows the hearts of men. But it is also true that God can reveal this knowledge to his servants.

Scripture gives us multiple examples of this phenomenon. Daniel 2 is perhaps the clearest. As the story goes, King Nebuchadnezzar had a troubling dream. He called for "the sorcerers" and "wise men" of his kingdom so they might interpret the dream for him. But there was one catch. He wanted them to tell him the dream first, and then they could give him the interpretation. None of them could. Nebuchadnezzar was furious. He immediately ordered the deaths of all "the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers," and "wise men" of the kingdom. That would include Daniel and his companions—Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego—as well.

Daniel told his three companions to pray to God for deliverance, resulting in God revealing to Daniel both the King’s dream and its interpretation. Daniel certainly knew the heart of the King. Daniel could "know the heart of a man" through the power of God; the abilities of the saints and angels in heaven far surpasses Daniel’s. For them to hear the silent prayers of the faithful on earth is a piece of cake.

[/QUOTE]

 

[JudgeRightly]

That's your MO. You post lies and then accuse the other side when your lies are dismissed. Its a childish game you play and I won't engage on your level.

Well, no, TG, and the thread is still here for everyone to read.

You posted a video (Post #13), expecting people to watch it, and it wasn't in direct response to anything on the thread.

So then I posted a BEL show link in response to your video, expecting you to listen to it.

You responded with, in order:

And appeal to tradition
Mockery
An (still as of now) unsupported accusation of lying against Pastor Enyart (who has been a pastor longer than you've been alive, which doesn't make him correct, it just means that you should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, and I can testify that he's much smarter than you give him credit for).
A prima facie claim, where evidence has already been presented (in the show which I linked) that shows otherwise.
A lie (See the image of the plaque on the show page for 3-30-2016: https://kgov.com/bel/20160330).
And an attempted scolding of someone who rarely is able to visit TOL, as if you are the authority in such matters.

I THEN responded with Post 22, Calling you out on the above, demanding that you present your case, rather than simply dismissing the evidence presented.

You then followed up with, well, the rest of the thread is still there, and my questions to you have so far been dismissed without good reason, other than the poor reason of what boils down to, "I don't like it therefore I will simply dismiss it and not answer it."

Every point has already been addressed ahead of time in this thread starter:

Then it should be relatively easy for you to summarize the points made in your answers to my question, which, again, is:

Do you believe that Mary:

A) Is aware of every single prayer from the millions of people who pray to her (in that she can hear all of them individually? Yes or no?
And
B) (if A is "yes") can even understand those prayers in their original language (in other words, that she can understand all languages)? Yes or no?
And
C) does not have to be omniscient to be able to do both A and B? "Yes, a person has to be omniscient to be able to do those things" or "No, a person does not have to be omniscient to be able to do those things"

And now I have a follow-up question, regarding C:

If a person does not have to be omniscient to be able to do both A and B, then can people who are still alive on this earth do such a thing? and if not, would you consider that a power gained upon reaching heaven? But if one can do A and B while here on this earth, then could you please provide the name of at least one person who can do both A and B, or could do so while they were alive on the earth (assuming they are dead)?

 

[Trump Gurl]

https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

One of the most important activities for a Catholic is prayer. Without it there can be no true spiritual life. Through personal prayer and the communal prayer of the Church, especially the Mass, we worship and praise God, we express sorrow for our sins, and we intercede on behalf of others (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Through prayer we grow in our relationship with Christ and with members of God’s family (CCC 2663–2696).

This family includes all members of the Church, whether on earth, in heaven, or in purgatory. Since Jesus has only one body, and since death has no power to separate us from Christ (Rom. 8:3–8), Christians who are in heaven or who, before entering heaven, are being purified in purgatory by God’s love (1 Cor. 3:12–15) are still part of the Body of Christ (CCC 962).

Jesus said the second greatest commandment is to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:39). Those in heaven love us more intensely than they ever could have loved us while on earth. They pray for us constantly (Rev. 5:8), and their prayers are powerful (Jas. 5:16, CCC 956, 2683, 2692).

Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ’s role as sole Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us we follow Paul’s instructions: “I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,” for “this is good and pleasing to God our Savior” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

All members of the Body of Christ are called to help one another through prayer (CCC 2647). Mary’s prayers are especially effective on our behalf because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1–11).

God gave Mary a special role (CCC 490–511, 963– 975). He saved her from all sin (Luke 1:28, 47), made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42), and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48). At the end of her life he took her, body and soul, into heaven—an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world (Rev. 12:1–2).


https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

 

[Trump Gurl]

The OP stands as fact

 

[Trump Gurl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru07yBjjX60

Isn't Christ the Only Mediator between God and Man?

 

[truechristian]

Saints in heaven who behold God are not dead. Your post is stupid.

Poor Trumpy, no saints are in heaven and neither is Mary but all are in their graves.

 

[oatmeal]

Evidently few have read I These 4:13-18 let alone understood it

 

[Trump Gurl]

Poor Trumpy, no saints are in heaven and neither is Mary but all are in their graves.

You are wrong, as usual.

And one other thing to anybody who reads this: Consider the joy this person is having at the belief that all are dead and nobody is in heaven. That is sick and twisted, on top of being incorrect..

 

[Trump Gurl]

In another thread I said that saints in heaven are alive. Derf asks:

He’s alive? Then how will he participate in the resurrection?

I am not quite sure how to answer that exactly, but I will study it and get back to you. But regarding the fact that saints are alive:

Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses in the New Testament, so we know they live. Hebrews is plain that the great cloud of witnesses in heaven cheer us on in our race to salvation, and Revelation is clear that in heaven the saints offer up prayers to God in John's vision.

So just because our bodies die our spirits live on.

Give this a read: Friends in High Places

. . . and I will get back to you on the other question.

 

[Derf]

Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses in the New Testament, so we know they live.

This only tells us they lived at that time. Doesn’t mean they weren’t living before and after that, but we don’t want to extrapolate beyond the info scripture gives us.

 

[Derf]

The OP stands as fact

“So let it be written. So let it be done.”

 

[Derf]

Poor Trumpy, no saints are in heaven and neither is Mary but all are in their graves.

Well, Elijah and Enoch are probably in heaven.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Sorry for my delay. Did you read the article?