Epoisses
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Heretic.
Free will
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Heretic.
Epoisses
New member
If you were a true student of Paul you would know that he condemned will worship under a law-based religion as powerless. That same will under a grace-based religion in empowered so that we can do all things in Christ. Free will under the law is bad vs. Free will under grace which is good.
Loser!
Epoisses
New member
Go away heretic and philosopher who obfuscates and purposefully misleads! They'll come up with ten variants on will like the Dispie has ten variants of dispensations, lol
Nanja
Well-known member
You the one who's the heretic !
Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Epoisses
New member
Real students of the word look at everything the bible has to say and make an informed, Spirit led decision.
Proof-texting is for deceivers and con-artists and hyper-calvinist unbelievers.
Nanja
Well-known member
The natural man such as yourself, unregenerate / not born again, is incapable of understanding the Truth of scripture.
1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
See that? It's not possible for a person to make a Spirit led decision if he's void of the Spirit! :duh:
So being Born of God, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, is a prerequisite to hearing / understanding the scriptures which are Spiritual:
1 Cor. 2:12-13
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2 Tim. 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
marhig
Well-known member
That means that we can overcome anything with God. Money will mean nothing to us once we belong to God, so with God all things are possible because the man who was rich, once he belongs to God puts God first and the wealth of this world last.
Many that were converted sold their possessions and laid them at the apostles feet, to be distributed to those in need. With God it was possible for them to enter into the kingdom of heaven because money meant nothing to them once God held their hearts in love.
Thus, with God all things are possible, he puts to death the works of the flesh, including the love of money.
marhig
Well-known member
We have free will, Jesus said many are called but few are chosen, what would be the point of many being called if we don't have free will? Why would all the angels in heaven rejoice if one sinner repents, if those who are saved have been elected to be saved before their were born? And why would the gospel need to be preached to every creature in every nation if every person didn't have the chance of salvation?
You do greatly error in your beliefs, and those who are the elect of God are those born of God, risen with Christ by the power of the Spirit, brought from death to life, because they believed the truth when they heard the gospel, and they repented and through faith followed Jesus and lived by the will of God.
Jesus said this,
Mark 16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So we have a choice, believe and be saved, or believe not and be damned, we have free will to choose once we hear the truth.
Nanja
Well-known member
God made His Choice before the foundation of the world who should be Saved:
Eph. 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Now to these Chosen Ones it is Given them to Believe on Christ:
Phil. 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
But all rest will not believe on Christ because they were condemned already John 3:18, they were always under the wrath of God.
Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Prov. 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
But when you use a term, it has to have some meaning or else how do you deal with it in an extended manner? I am free to imagine almost literally anything I want, but even my imagination is somehow limited by my experience. So my will - I am certainly free to will pretty much anything (in a detatched sense), but will I truly desire something that is counter to my inclinations, desires and makeup at any given moment? For example, a criminal is free to will that his victims are not injured by his actions in any way, but is that really his will? If it were, would he commit his crimes? No. His will is being tethered by something deeper. Otherwise everyone would be absolutely free to will absolutely anything at absolutely any moment. That sort of freedom takes on a sort of anarchy if the will is utterly and absolutely free and governed by nothing else. One moment I may will to be a king - the next I may will that the oceans turn to chocolate - and the next I may will that I am a peasant. Obviously ludicrous examples, but it shows (I think) the importance of having a more precise understanding of the will before proceeding in discussion.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Money is one of many things that we are taught that we should be the master of rather than being its master but no matter what we do or don't do with our money our destinies are fixed.
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
ttruscott
Well-known member
To be succinct, the spirits created in HIS image all chose their eternal fates before the creation of the earth, but for all those who chose to be sinners, HE predetermined their lives on earth as the best way to ensure the most perfect life to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption.
One's fate and one's life are different things...not the same at all.
Epoisses
New member
Free will in the generally understood sense does not have the power to choose Christ and be saved. We are saved only be believing in Christ not choosing him. Free will or choice was the old covenant understanding of righteousness where we choose good and refrain from evil. This was a shadow of the new covenant reality where the will of man is transformed by grace of God so the dead and formal religion of will power gives place to the liberty of the gospel. The will of man empowered by the Holy Spirit can do all things in Christ. Free will is limited in the sense that it can often lead us off the path of righteousness (human aspect) but can never get us back on the path of righteousness (Divine aspect). Ultimately those who reject Christ have their will aligned with evil so they can never choose or believe in Christ. This process is known as the 'hardening in sin' as in the case of Pharaoh and Esau. So free will is probationary where the Holy Spirit calls all men to repentance and a choice for Christ and once this choice is made there is no turning back and only God would know when that point is reached by every human being.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I personally mean a decision making process and ability that is NOT coerced by anything so that one of the options MUST be chosen, nor constrained from being able to choose one of the options that logic dictates is viable to the choice.
Is this what you mean by untethered?
ttruscott
Well-known member
IF we have never had a free will to choose to be evil then GOD created us evil without our will and therefore HE is evil (against all scripture) and we are not guilty for our sins (against all scripture). Our free will is an absolute necessity to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make our guilt for our sins to be real guilt.
Those blasphemers who claim that the loving righteous GOD creates moral evil which HE hates and has not within HIM should be anathema.
ttruscott
Well-known member
How then does our enslavement to sin mean anything? It means only that it bothers us? How does it mean anything to our sinful nature, the flesh of Galatians 5:16-18? Our sinful desires have no effect upon our ability to choose? Hmmmm, James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
The call on earth is the irresistible call of HIS spirit to the the sinful people of the kingdom, the sinful lost sheep, to return into HIM and be redeemed.
Rejoicing that a sheep lost to evil is now returned is quite natural, no? You speak against it as if such rejoicing is meaningless because of the method of bringing them back to the fold and the prophetic promise that their return was inevitable?
So that the sinful good seed, the sinful people of the kingdom, can see for themselves by their own experience that the evil of the tares, the people of the evil one, is eternal and they can never repent. Thus these sinful good seed will be brought to holiness, ie, to be in agreement with GOD's plan to hold the judgement day as an absolute necessity, which they forced to be postponed by choosing to be liable to the judgement themselves by choosing to be sinful also, probably in rebellion to the call for judgement. I refer to Matt 13:28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The harvest is of course the time of the maturity of the seed and the only maturity that keeps one from judgement is the maturity of holiness, agreement with all of GOD's plans.
As sinners, GOD's elect sheep lost to sin must have their eyes opened to their own sin (as A&E did by not being able to resist the temptation not to eat) and to the eternal nature of the sin of the demonic, ie the serpent's betrayal in the garden, Satan's willingness to monster the world's most holy old man just because YHWH liked HIM and the suffering they see all around them in their lives stemming from the evil in the world. Then they can become holy...
There is nowhere I have written anything against these ideas.
I just add in the verse you cannot deal with at face value that the gospel was first preached before the foundation of the world: Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Every creature: Strong's G2937 - ktisis creature:
1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created
1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
a) anything created
therefore my contention that every creature under heaven (past, present and future humans) has (already) heard the gospel, is supported by the words at least. Since this has certainly not been fulfilled in earth in the past yet the tense of the verse proclaimed is a finished action in the past that has been continued into the future, the here and now, which is only possible if we had a life pre-earth in Sheol before the foundation of the earth and heard the gospel then and there.
How then are believers not condemned (already) though sinners and some non-believers are condemned for their unbelief already, before hearing, Jn 3:18? What does already mean if not before hearing the truth or even possibly before being sown into this life as per Matt 13: 36-39?
genuineoriginal
New member
I don't see why you think coercion needs to be excluded from a definition of free will, as long as a person is able to choose to reject the coercion and accept the consequences.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
That definitely sounds untethered to me. Though what sort of compulsion you mean by "MUST" strikes me as implying a second will. in other words, one will that is untethered has no direction, no inclination and nothing guiding its choices. Your definition of an unfree will seems to be saying nothing is making it choose one way - even if it is inclined another way. My point is that it already has an inclination. That is what directs it.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
When sin is viewed as merely an isolated act, then we can choose not to do what is seen as as sin. But the thoughts of the heart are on a whole different level - indicating where those words and deeds come from - and that is what directs our will. If you are hungry, can you will yourself NOT to be hungry? When you will not to eat in that case, it is against a biological imperative. We are able to suppress biological urges - but what about the thoughts and desires that attend some of those urges? Can we freely will opposite them such that we no longer will what we want?
ttruscott
Well-known member
I reject that a coerced will is free because by definition if coerced it cannot reject the coercion...or it is not coercion, only a influence.