Free Will

[freelight]

Still no passage that says what you say, huh? And yet how is it that you can deduce these things from scripture texts and passages, (albeit erroneously), but you cannot see the clear and obvious deductions which Freelight and so many others have shown to you? You only reveal that you see only what you wish to see. Your freewill choices are getting the better of you.

Spiritual giggles

 

[daqq]

Spiritual giggles

"I have no freewill but I sure as heck am not going to choose to see *that* in my doctrine!" :chuckle:

 

[freelight]

Blasting Original Sin concept...............

Blasting Original Sin concept...............

Responsible for mine since I was born with it. I blame it on whom I was born from

Only if you believe in some kind of genetic inheritance of sin, a belief held by some. But if do inherit 'total depravity' from Adam or any of your ancestors via the bloodline, and have some kind of 'original innocence' intact at your birth...then you are only held accountable for your own sins, and to make atonement for those only, by repentance. You cannot blame your sins on anyone else, but yourself. Here the principle of 'self-responsibility' cannot be surpassed. Remember to inquire of Ezekiel below,...'every soul shall die for its OWN sins'. (and not for anothers).

Spoiler

18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4
“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

5
But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;

6
If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;

7
If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;

8
If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;

9
If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.

10
“If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things

11
And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;

12
If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;

13
If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.

14
“If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;

15
Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;

16
Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;

17
Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor[a]
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!

18
“As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

Turn and Live

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Daqq and I had a good exchange on this, perhaps he can find those posts. The proverb, "‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’ is telling. - perhaps it speaks of the belief of 'ancestral sin' or the sins of the fathers being visited on the children up to the 3rd or 4th generation. Perhaps Ezekiel has a new dispensation of knowledge about this subject? Granted this is a subject that could merit its own thread,...but will see if daqq would like to do a quick synopsis on this. Again, here we consider the principle of responsibility for one's own sins, of which one alone is held accountable. While it may be true in some sense that sins of our ancestors could affect or influence us in one way or another, this does NOT abrogate responsibility for our OWN sins.

This very chapter is also a bonafide attestation to 'free will', since it wholly affirms 'accountability' for one's actions....remember, personal responsibility. - you cannot blame your sins on another man or God, or any variation thereof.

 

[beloved57]

Still no passage that says what you say, huh? And yet how is it that you can deduce these things from scripture texts and passages, (albeit erroneously), but you cannot see the clear and obvious deductions which Freelight and so many others have shown to you? You only reveal that you see only what you wish to see. Your freewill choices are getting the better of you.

Does the natural man have a freewill to please God according to Rom 8:8 ?

 

[daqq]

Only if you believe in some kind of genetic inheritance of sin, a belief held by some. But if do inherit 'total depravity' from Adam or any of your ancestors via the bloodline, and have some kind of 'original innocence' intact at your birth...then you are only held accountable for your own sins, and to make atonement for those only, by repentance. You cannot blame your sins on anyone else, but yourself. Here the principle of 'self-responsibility' cannot be surpassed. Remember to inquire of Ezekiel below,...'every soul shall die for its OWN sins'. (and not for anothers).

Spoiler

18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4
“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

5
But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;

6
If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;

7
If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;

8
If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;

9
If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.

10
“If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things

11
And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;

12
If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;

13
If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.

14
“If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;

15
Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;

16
Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;

17
Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor[a]
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!

18
“As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

Turn and Live

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Daqq and I had a good exchange on this, perhaps he can find those posts. The proverb, "‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’ is telling. - perhaps it speaks of the belief of 'ancestral sin' or the sins of the fathers being visited on the children up to the 3rd or 4th generation. Perhaps Ezekiel has a new dispensation of knowledge about this subject? Granted this is a subject that could merit its own thread,...but will see if daqq would like to do a quick synopsis on this. Again, here we consider the principle of responsibility for one's own sins, of which one alone is held accountable. While it may be true in some sense that sins of our ancestors could affect or influence us in one way or another, this does NOT abrogate responsibility for our OWN sins.

This very chapter is also a bonafide attestation to 'free will', since it wholly affirms 'accountability' for one's actions....remember, personal responsibility. - you cannot blame your sins on another man or God, or any variation thereof.

Yeah, the last place I remember addressing this was a thread of similar subject matter:

Spoiler

Calvinism doesn't beat around the bush, that's precisely why those as yourself do not like it- you want the cake and eat it to, no sacrifice or offense, and autonomy with no conviction.

You fundamentally deny Original Sin, and don't have the theological capacity to know why that is.

Thesis 3 debunked

Your "original sin" happened the first time you willfully sinned, just as everyone else, and before that day you were innocent. Just because all sin, and all fall short, does not translate into the "original sin" doctrine which most use primarily for theologic purposes.

Deuteronomy 1:39 ASV
39 Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This is yet again the same kind of typology and analogy where the "old man" dies off in the wilderness and the "new man" enters into the promised inheritance. It is not that anyone is "perfect" but that the mind of Messiah, (his Testimony), must be put on while the old man must be cut off and allowed to die off in the wilderness along the way to the promised land. When you cross the Jordan you will see a hill of foreskins: leave the foreskin of your heart there, on the mountain of flesh, as you enter into the Land. :chuckle:

Deut 24:16, Jer 31:29-31, (New Covenant Language), Eze 18:1-20, (New Covenant Language).

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:29-31 KJV
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

What is this proverb of which he speaks, "The fathers have eaten the sour grape: the children's teeth are set on edge"? No doubt this concerns a more ancient version of the so-called original sin doctrine which was held among some Israelites because of the creation narrative. The Prophet Jeremiah says it will not stand because, as the Torah clearly states, every one will die for his own sin. Moreover this is the famous Jeremiah passage concerning the New Covenant which is quoted in Hebrews chapter eight. And what does the Prophet Ezekiel say about it?

Exekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

There is therefore no choice but to part oneself asunder and put to death the "old man" nature because the soul that sins shall die. It is therefore just as I said to you previously herein, Crucible, and as I also said, Yeshua teaches these things in his doctrine:

Matthew 10:38-39
38 And the one not taking up his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 The one finding his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and the one apollumi-destroying his soul for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:23-26
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Yeshua to his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and zemiow-lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 9:23-25
23 And he said to them all, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his soul shall destroy it: but whosoever will destroy his soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 14:26-27
26 If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, even his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever does not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

It is just as Paul likewise teaches throughout: putting to death or mortifying your own "members" which are upon your own land, or mortifying the deeds of the body, that is, cutting off sin from your household-body-temple which is no more your own when you enter into Yeshua faithfulness.

This is the old parable of the orginial sin doctrine:

"Adam ate the sour grape, the children's teeth are set on edge!"

This is what the Father says about it:

"As I live, says Adonai YHWH, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Yisrael."

Hey, look, therein is Deuteronomy 1:39 again too . . .

 

[daqq]

Does the natural man have a freewill to please God according to Rom 8:8 ?

The natural man cannot please Elohim, (he is your Esau old man nature), therefore you must take up your own stake and put him to death, ("mortify", as Paul says).

 

[beloved57]

Nope, therefore you must take up your own stake and put him to death, ("mortify", as Paul says).

Then how does man have a freewill when he cant please God ?

 

[Crucible]

Free will is by it's very definition a doctrine of man.

It is nothing more than a narcotic that inebriates the faculty of the brain which governs theology

 

[freelight]

Then how does man have a freewill when he cant please God ?

Paul instructs you to put your mind on the spirit, for to be spiritually minded is life and peace. If you can put your mind on the spirit, and be 'spiritually minded',..then you have the ability to Do this, to will this, to engage the spirit, to walk in the spirit, etc. Why would Paul instruct you to DO anything, if you didn't have the ability, and freedom to CHOOSE to follow his instructions? Do you have a choice to follow instructions or not?

 

[freelight]

Free will is by it's very definition a doctrine of man.

It is nothing more than a narcotic that inebriates the faculty of the brain which governs theology

Well thank you cruce, for engaging your free will to share this with us :crackup:

 

[beloved57]

Paul instructs you to put your mind on the spirit, for to be spiritually minded is life and peace. If you can put your mind on the spirit, and be 'spiritually minded',..then you have the ability to Do this, to will this, to engage the spirit, to walk in the spirit, etc. Why would Paul instruct you to DO anything, if you didn't have the ability, and freedom to CHOOSE to follow his instructions? Do you have a choice to follow instructions or not?

How can those in the flesh please God when they cant ? According to Rom 8:8 does the person in the flesh have a freewill to please God ? Yes or No

 

[daqq]

Then how does man have a freewill when he cant please God ?

I elaborated what I meant in my previous post but your quote does not reflect it. Anyway the natural man loves darkness and chooses it because he loves himself more than anything else. These are all still choices even though his choices are animalistic in nature, (will to survive). The natural man will always choose to save his own skin and therefore cannot understand the principles and teachings of Messiah; such as taking up your own stake or cross and putting to death the deeds of the body, "mortifying" your own "members" which are upon your land, (in this analogy every "man" has some land with his house-body-temple and its various "household members"). Such things are expounded firstly and foremost in the Testimony of Yeshua, in the Gospel accounts, well before you will ever get to understanding Paul, (because Paul speaks of these same things in more "down-to-earth" terms). The "members" of your household are likened to a father against a son, a mother against a daughter, a mother-in-law against a daughter-in-law, five in one house parted-cloven-divided asunder: three against two, and two against three, a sword of spiritual warfare upon your earth, (liker ten little virgins; five wise, and five foolish, the sheep to the right hand side and the devil-goats to the left). So you are commanded to cut off "your father the devil" and cleave away unto your heavenly Father; cut off your "Babylonian mother of harlots" and honor your mother-covenant Yerushalem of above who is the mother of us all; cut off your own "son of perdition" and honor the Son of Man, and so on and so on. Cut them off before they choke the Seed of the Word out of your heart: for they are false doctrines which are likened to demons, (not other people), just as Yeshua says, for eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, and it is allegory in parables concerning your old man Esau nature whom Elohim says that He hates, that is, the spirit of the world, and "prince of the power of the air", (false doctrines and their gods). You actually must choose to put on the mind of Messiah, which is to immerse yourself in his full Testimony in the Gospel accounts, and that is the only way you will eventually cut off your old man nature; and in that way the glory is not to you but to Messiah and more so the One who gave Yeshua that Testimony from the heavens, the Father.

 

[beloved57]

I elaborated what I meant in my previous post but your quote does not reflect it. Anyway the natural man loves darkness and chooses it because he loves himself more than anything else. These are all still choices even though his choices are animalistic in nature, (will to survive). The natural man will always choose to save his own skin and therefore cannot understand the principles and teachings of Messiah; such as taking up your own stake or cross and putting to death the deeds of the body, "mortifying" your own "members" which are upon your land, (in this analogy every "man" has some land with his house-body-temple and its various "household members"). Such things are expounded firstly and foremost in the Testimony of Yeshua, in the Gospel accounts, well before you will ever get to understanding Paul, (because Paul speaks of these same things in more "down-to-earth" terms). The "members" of your household are likened to a father against a son, a mother against a daughter, a mother-in-law against a daughter-in-law, five in one house parted-cloven-divided asunder: three against two, and two against three, a sword of spiritual warfare upon your earth, (liker ten little virgins; five wise, and five foolish, the sheep to the right hand side and the devil-goats to the left). So you are commanded to cut off "your father the devil" and cleave away unto your heavenly Father; cut off your "Babylonian mother of harlots" and honor your mother-covenant Yerushalem of above who is the mother of us all; cut off your own "son of perdition" and honor the Son of Man, and so on and so on. Cut them off before they choke the Seed of the Word out of your heart: for they are false doctrines which are likened to demons, (not other people), just as Yeshua says, for eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, and it is allegory in parables concerning your old man Esau nature whom Elohim says that He hates, that is, the spirit of the world, and "prince of the power of the air", (false doctrines and their gods).

What you are saying is senseless. If man by nature in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 then his will isn't free to please God.

 

[daqq]

What you are saying is senseless. If man by nature in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 then his will isn't free to please God.

You clearly did not take the time to actually digest what was written in that lengthy post.
No doubt you read the scripture in the same manner.

 

[beloved57]

You clearly did not take the time to actually digest what was written in that lengthy post.
No doubt you read the scripture in the same manner.

You are wasting my time. Can the person in the flesh, which all are by nature, use their freewill to please God Rom 8:8? Yes or No?

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[freelight]

How can those in the flesh please God when they cant ? According to Rom 8:8 does the person in the flesh have a freewill to please God ? Yes or No

A mind set on the flesh and satisfying fleshly desire, according to Paul (note according to 'Paul') cannot,...but when a soul sets its mind on the spirit, it can....'according to Paul'. Thats all you can claim here, contextually speaking, apart from your own personal experience of this, if it be true. Note the whole chapter, Paul continues to instruct/encourage them to walk in the spirit! You didnt answer my last question. You can set your mind (attention/consciousness) on the flesh or the spirit,....its what you attend! - Do you have a choice here? Is Paul just playing word games?

Note also, that Paul by his own words, does not always claim to be speaking for God. He shares his opinions as well. He was but a mortal man.

 

[daqq]

You are wasting my time. Can the person in the flesh, which all are by nature, use their freewill to please God Rom 8:8? Yes or No?

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

Lol, it is your soul, I told you the truth from the Spirit of the Testimony of Messiah.
There is no other answer as even Paul teaches the same good-news Gospel.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Lol, it is your soul, I told you the truth from the Spirit of the Testimony of Messiah.
There is no other answer as even Paul teaches the same good-news Gospel.

Originally Posted by beloved57
You are wasting my time. Can the person in the flesh, which all are by nature, use their freewill to please God Rom 8:8? Yes or No?

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

Wasting my time, that's priceless.:crackup:

 

[daqq]

Wasting my time, that's priceless.:crackup:

Too often people seem to think that because something is not quoted and written in scripture format it must be from the poster alone who posted it; and too often those same people unknowingly condemn Messiah when his teachings are posted outside of scripture quoting and formatting because they do not even recognize his teachings. But if they will not hear the Master Teacher then they will certainly not hear his disciples and followers. The only conclusion one might come to is perhaps that in such instances the two opposing sides do not have the same Master Teacher. But as for me, the prince of the power of the air was cast out in the beginning even as Paul says, but that one with his fellows did indeed return with all my sins upon his mortally wounded head, (and only then does he go into destruction), and thus I know who my Master Teacher is because these things were written in his Testimony long before my scrawny little soul ever came creeping along, (Matthew 12:40-50, and beware the queen of the south, (sheba-seven heads!)).

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Too often people seem to think that because something is not quoted and written in scripture format it must be from the poster alone who posted it; and too often those same people unknowingly condemn Messiah when his teachings are posted outside of scripture quoting and formatting because they do not even recognize his teachings. But if they will not hear the Master Teacher then they will certainly not hear his disciples and followers. The only conclusion one might come to is perhaps that in such instances the two opposing sides do not have the same Master Teacher. But as for me, the prince of the power of the air was cast out in the beginning even as Paul says, but that one with his fellows did indeed return with all my sins upon his mortally wounded head, (and only then does he go into destruction), and thus I know who my Master Teacher is because these things were written in his Testimony long before my scrawny little soul ever came creeping along, (Matthew 12:40-50, and beware the queen of the south, (sheba-seven heads!)).

That's why I left out "you" when I quoted him.

I saw your humility before you posted this, and thank you for your "as for me" story also.

P.S. He's been good at wasting my time also.