Freak now promotes limited atonement!

[godrulz]

If that's the case, why doesn't everyone who hears the Gospel message 'choose' Christ?

God does not coerce or cause regeneration. He influences, persuades, woos, draws. His grace and purposes with individual salvation can be resisted.

You have at least 3 wrong assumptions: regeneration precedes repentant faith; grace is irresistible; the atonement is a literal payment of a debt, a commercial transaction (if you do not adopt this theory, it leads to universalism....dying only for the 'elect' flows from this concept if you reject universalism).

 

[JCAtheist]

If that's the case, why doesn't everyone who hears the Gospel message 'choose' Christ?

Because although God has put out the call, some seem to want to ignore it.. which is what free will is all about.


Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Z Man]

Because although God has put out the call, some seem to want to ignore it..

Why didn't you ignore it? What makes you better than them that you were able to say 'yes' to Jesus, while they become stubborn and say no?

 

[JCAtheist]

Why didn't you ignore it? What makes you better than them that you were able to say 'yes' to Jesus, while they become stubborn and say no?

Who is to say I didn't? And nothing makes me 'better'. If anything, self examination when a lot younger made me realise that there are things and ways to be in life.. and maybe these things grew in me further down the road of lifes experiences.

I say yes to Jesus, but I still am wary of calling myself 'saved'. I will leave thast final judgement to God, thanks.. lest I start to crane. I find I am much more able to remain within the realm of Christs commands when I am avoiding those things that arouse my carnality.. such as pride.

Some peoples life experiences do not lead them to self realise, or to look beyond the materialism they have etc.. I cannot speak for why some people decide to turn away and be stubborn.. but I will bet my life that each of us knows when our 'conscience' is saying something is a bad idea etc.. but how many people listen to that when persuaded differently by friends, peers, parents etc.? As a young boy, I remember throwing a stone through an old ladies window.. I knew it was wrong, but my freinds where there, and one of them the school bully.. and I was young and scared, and would rather throw the stone than face a beating for being a 'coward'. Turns out I WAS a coward, and threw the stone.. go figure. God spoke to me then and told me not to do it.. lit the words up He had written in my heart, and let me know it was wrong.. but I ignored it.

Some people never grow up I guess.. I like to look back and think I did.. eventually.


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Z Man]

Who is to say I didn't? And nothing makes me 'better'.

........

Some people never grow up I guess.. I like to look back and think I did.. eventually.

So when we all get to heaven, and God asks why He should let you in, I guess you can tell Him it's because you 'grew up' unlike those heathens who were stubborn.

Doesn't that give you something to boast about in your salvation?

 

[JCAtheist]

So when we all get to heaven, and God asks why He should let you in, I guess you can tell Him it's because you 'grew up' unlike those heathens who were stubborn.

Doesn't that give you something to boast about in your salvation?

LOL.. no.. of course, you can act dense about what I am saying, and I really don't feel I have to supply you an accounting of my whole life. Your words speak much more about you than they do me. I won't be comparing myself to others.. they will have their own time with God thanks..


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

ADDED: Also, not my job to boast about my salvation.. my job is to do what Christ commands, and to share His Gospel.. I only have faith and hope I do some of that right. This just sprung to mind:

2Co 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

 

[Z Man]

LOL.. no.. of course, you can act dense about what I am saying, and I really don't feel I have to supply you an accounting of my whole life. Your words speak much more about you than they do me. I won't be comparing myself to others.. they will have their own time with God thanks..


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

ADDED: Also, not my job to boast about my salvation.. my job is to do what Christ commands, and to share His Gospel.. I only have faith and hope I do some of that right. This just sprung to mind:

2Co 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

Look, I don't want, nor expect an account of your life. I simply want you to see how 'boastful' you can be of your salvation. You pridefully believe that you are somehow 'better' than those who do not believe, simply because you weren't 'stubborn', or 'ignorant' like they are. You were a good little boy and said yes to God, thus receiving salvation. Unlike those stubborn and ignorant heathens, you obeyed.

The Bible teaches us that we had nothing to do with our salvation - NOTHING.

Ephesians 2:1-2, 8-9
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world...

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[JCAtheist]

Look, I don't want, nor expect an account of your life. I simply want you to see how 'boastful' you can be of your salvation. You pridefully believe that you are somehow 'better' than those who do not believe, simply because you weren't 'stubborn', or 'ignorant' like they are.

First, don't build straw men.. I don't believe anything of the sort.. I don't KNOW if I am saved or not.. no matter what some people around here believe about themselves or what is written in the Bible in their eyes.. I have faith and hope.. and thats it. I don't believe I'm any better than any other person who has sinned before.. and thats ALL of us.. except one.

You were a good little boy and said yes to God, thus receiving salvation. Unlike those stubborn and ignorant heathens, you obeyed.

I don't have a jackass smiley.. if I did, I would be using it right now Once again, YOUR words, not mine, or my thoughts.. And I just explained that when I was young, I didn't always say yes.. nor can I say for sure I always do now. DO you always make up your own little imaginary scenarios, and then use them in discussions, even though they have nothing at all to do with what is being said? It certainly appears so from what you are posting now. How old are you??

The Bible teaches us that we had nothing to do with our salvation - NOTHING.

Ephesians 2:1-2, 8-9
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world...

Uh huh.. all the rest of the Bible but that verse can be dropped then. It's all pointless and teaches us nothing. And was a waste of time as God already chose who was 'elect' and who wasn't..

Well, would like to have said it was interesting.. but it really wasn't. Have fun burning straw men with someone else


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Freak]

OK,.

I thought it was alittle strange that you created a thread about me believing in something I have never believed in. Pretty desperate.

 

[godrulz]

I thought it was alittle strange that you created a thread about me believing in something I have never believed in. Pretty desperate.

Non sequitur? I believe that you believe in an unlimited, general redemption. Your second statement about individual election contradicts this unless you clarify what you mean. I think you will have to abandon individual election to maintain free will and unlimited atonement. Unconditional election is part of TULIP/Calvinism. It is consistent with that logic, but not so much with unlimited atonement. There are 4 point Calvinists that reject limited atonement. I am not familiar with their arguments or how they reconcile TUIP. I think they are probably incoherent also.

 

[Freak]

Non sequitur? I believe that you believe

Tell me what I believe, Godrulz.

 

[Z Man]

First, don't build straw men.. I don't believe anything of the sort.. I don't KNOW if I am saved or not.. no matter what some people around here believe about themselves or what is written in the Bible in their eyes.. I have faith and hope.. and thats it. I don't believe I'm any better than any other person who has sinned before.. and thats ALL of us.. except one.



I don't have a jackass smiley.. if I did, I would be using it right now Once again, YOUR words, not mine, or my thoughts.. And I just explained that when I was young, I didn't always say yes.. nor can I say for sure I always do now. DO you always make up your own little imaginary scenarios, and then use them in discussions, even though they have nothing at all to do with what is being said? It certainly appears so from what you are posting now. How old are you??



Uh huh.. all the rest of the Bible but that verse can be dropped then. It's all pointless and teaches us nothing. And was a waste of time as God already chose who was 'elect' and who wasn't..

Well, would like to have said it was interesting.. but it really wasn't. Have fun burning straw men with someone else


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

Ok, let's make this simplier for you to understand. You believe in freewill, correct? I really want to hear what you believe in this matter. It's very important.

2 guys go to church and hear the gospel message preached. At the end, one guy believes and 'accepts' Jesus into his heart. The other one leaves still unbelieving. As they leave the church that afternoon to go home, they both are involved in an accident and die. One goes to heaven, the other to hell.

Now, when the one who decided to 'choose' Jesus that day goes to Heaven, does he or does he not have the right to boast in his acceptance of the Gospel message that day? Can he not say that he was just a tad 'smarter', and less selfish than the other 'stubborn' guy who did not believe? Well, if freewill is right, then YES! He does!

If you and I both received an offer to get out of jail and avoid the death penalty, and I believed the offer and accepted it, while you were stubborn and said it was nonsense, then I would definitly say that you were an idiot as you were escorted to the gas chambers!

 

[Servo]

So man doesn't need to worry about choosing God, because He does it for us...

 

[Jauchzer]

So man doesn't need to worry about choosing God, because He does it for us...

So it's God's fault if someone goes to Hell because He doesn't want to save everyone?

:vomit:

 

[godrulz]

Tell me what I believe, Godrulz.

I believe you believe that the atonement is unlimited. I just think you are inconsistent to also believe in individual election (though I can see it from an Arminian simple foreknowledge point of view).

 

[godrulz]

Ok, let's make this simplier for you to understand. You believe in freewill, correct? I really want to hear what you believe in this matter. It's very important.

2 guys go to church and hear the gospel message preached. At the end, one guy believes and 'accepts' Jesus into his heart. The other one leaves still unbelieving. As they leave the church that afternoon to go home, they both are involved in an accident and die. One goes to heaven, the other to hell.

Now, when the one who decided to 'choose' Jesus that day goes to Heaven, does he or does he not have the right to boast in his acceptance of the Gospel message that day? Can he not say that he was just a tad 'smarter', and less selfish than the other 'stubborn' guy who did not believe? Well, if freewill is right, then YES! He does!

If you and I both received an offer to get out of jail and avoid the death penalty, and I believed the offer and accepted it, while you were stubborn and said it was nonsense, then I would definitly say that you were an idiot as you were escorted to the gas chambers!

It is just as easy to be proud that God chose you and not someone else. Both views can have a response of pride or humility. I am humbled because He died for me and I cannot save myself. He loved me while I was yet a sinner who did not want Him. What is there to boast? If He says believe on me, and I believe, I do not get proud. I am further humbled, as you also feel within your view.

God initiates and provides salvation. He gets all the glory. We cannot boast or save ourselves. He draws and influences, but does not coerce or cause. We are responsible to receive or reject truth as He impartially convicts us. We are culpable if we harden our hearts and reject Him. We, not God, is responsible for our condemnation or damnation. If we respond positively, we are meeting His wise conditions. We have to be willing to cease our selfish rebellion. He does not forgive us in our sins, but from our sins. Repentant faith and continuance in the faith are conditions of salvation. Faith is not a work. Meeting a condition is not meritorious. Faith alone does not save. The faith must be in the Savior who died to take away our sins. In a sincere effort to give God all the glory, you miss the repeated call to repent, believe, and obey. These involve a change of our minds, will, and heart. If salvation was so unilateral (monergism vs synergism), then there is no loving, just reason why God would not regenerate all men whether they wanted to be or not. Hyper-sovereignty distorts the glory of God and reduces us to robots.

God commands men everywhere to repent (Acts).

Chose today whom you will serve (Joshua).

 

[JCAtheist]

Ok, let's make this simplier for you to understand. You believe in freewill, correct? I really want to hear what you believe in this matter. It's very important.

2 guys go to church and hear the gospel message preached. At the end, one guy believes and 'accepts' Jesus into his heart. The other one leaves still unbelieving. As they leave the church that afternoon to go home, they both are involved in an accident and die. One goes to heaven, the other to hell.

Now, when the one who decided to 'choose' Jesus that day goes to Heaven, does he or does he not have the right to boast in his acceptance of the Gospel message that day? Can he not say that he was just a tad 'smarter', and less selfish than the other 'stubborn' guy who did not believe? Well, if freewill is right, then YES! He does!

No he doesn't, because pride is not a fruit of the Spirit! Boasting about such a thing is a matter of pride.. it would be more becoming of a Christian to look upon that other person with some compassionate remorse, not pride in themselves. What ever happened to the good Samaritan? It leaves us when we become 'elect'?

Also, how did YOU suddenly decide the other person wasn't going to heaven just because at that time they still had doubts? Now if they openly stood up and rejected Christ and God and Love and all that God is, I might see you as having some grounds to say it. Otherwise, judgement is the Lords, not yours or mine. IMHO. Plus, you may want to read my post about Love and Looking for God HERE.

If you and I both received an offer to get out of jail and avoid the death penalty, and I believed the offer and accepted it, while you were stubborn and said it was nonsense, then I would definitly say that you were an idiot as you were escorted to the gas chambers!

Once again, you are certain that HOW you got that get out of jail card, was from the correct source. I might doubt it until I understand more.. I would never say it was nonsense, so I will try and think how I might hypothetically react to your situation.

If I did just blatantly deny it, and throw the card I was given away, then once again, you may have grounds to assume I am lost. However, the reaction I would give if I where in your shoes would be one of sadness and remorse at the loss of a 'sheep'.. and not some gloating pride wherein I dance about claiming others are idiots for not being as 'bright' as I might think I am. Once again, is this what being one of the elect does to you? You forget the fruits of the Spirit, and make new ones of pride? I learn more with each of your posts


In Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Z Man]

So man doesn't need to worry about choosing God, because He does it for us...

If He didn't, no one would be saved.

 

[Z Man]

So it's God's fault if someone goes to Hell because He doesn't want to save everyone?

:vomit:

You act as if man deserves God's favor.

 

[Z Man]

No he doesn't, because pride is not a fruit of the Spirit! Boasting about such a thing is a matter of pride.. it would be more becoming of a Christian to look upon that other person with some compassionate remorse, not pride in themselves. What ever happened to the good Samaritan? It leaves us when we become 'elect'?

Also, how did YOU suddenly decide the other person wasn't going to heaven just because at that time they still had doubts? Now if they openly stood up and rejected Christ and God and Love and all that God is, I might see you as having some grounds to say it. Otherwise, judgement is the Lords, not yours or mine. IMHO. Plus, you may want to read my post about Love and Looking for God HERE.



Once again, you are certain that HOW you got that get out of jail card, was from the correct source. I might doubt it until I understand more.. I would never say it was nonsense, so I will try and think how I might hypothetically react to your situation.

If I did just blatantly deny it, and throw the card I was given away, then once again, you may have grounds to assume I am lost. However, the reaction I would give if I where in your shoes would be one of sadness and remorse at the loss of a 'sheep'.. and not some gloating pride wherein I dance about claiming others are idiots for not being as 'bright' as I might think I am. Once again, is this what being one of the elect does to you? You forget the fruits of the Spirit, and make new ones of pride? I learn more with each of your posts


In Love and Peace

JCAtheist

Obviously, you must be a young Christian, or one with some tremendous doubt issues. There is no need to debate with someone as fragile as you.