ECT Forgiving and Forgiveness

Totton Linnet

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Christ was sent to the "Lost Sheep of Israel." Paul, on the other
hand was sent to the gentiles to preach the "Grace Message."

Christ and the other Apostles preached the "Kingdom Message"
to the House of Israel.

Although that is true yet He taught them salvation by grace through faith, Paul also preached the Kingdom, the difference is that the church inherit the heavenly portion but the Jews the earthly.

But the church includes all the Jews who were saved.

To the possuls Christ said "I go and prepare a place for you" that's a place in heaven.
 

God's Truth

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Of course because she is saying if so great an apostle as Paul was under the dominion of sin what hope can she have?

Paul was one who could say "I know of nothing against me"

It is important, I believe in victory over sin, ImJu and her buddies believe victory can be achieved by obeying the commandments, but the commandments are not given for that purpose, they are given to ENLARGE sin....They put sin under a magnifying glass

You might be right about what IMJerusha believes, but you are not right about what I believe.

I do not preach the old law. I preach the new law.

The more they say "thou shalt not" the more we want to and the more the law says "thou shalt" the more we do not want to.

That is what Paul said about someone under the OLD LAW and without faith!

Not because the law is evil but the weakness is in us

So the devil chases our weak flesh with his temptations, they resist, the devil persists and sooner or later the sin they do not want to do is the very thing they do....and they melt like a plate of jelly.

I obey Jesus. Jesus' words are full of Spirit and life. How do you ever get that a person cannot overcome by faith and obedience to Christ!

Then they are under condemnation. Then they start condemning everybody else. it is a viscious circle.

I have not condemned anyone. Those who believe and obey Jesus are not condemned. Who but the devil would say anything so evil about believing and obeying Jesus?

If you feel condemned when I preached obedience to Christ, you must be getting convicted by the Holy Spirit.

This is just the nature of law obeyers...they ALL do it.

But Paul tells us that the handwriting which was against us has been nailed to the cross...it's agone....so the devil no longer has anything to tempt us with, nothing to arouse sin [which is the flesh rebelling against God's commands] Sin is TOTALLY defeated at the cross.

You are badly mistaken.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Although that is true yet He taught them salvation by grace through faith, Paul also preached the Kingdom, the difference is that the church inherit the heavenly portion but the Jews the earthly.

But the church includes all the Jews who were saved.

To the possuls Christ said "I go and prepare a place for you" that's a place in heaven.

Peter and the other Apostles preached faith in Christ plus works, whereas, Paul preached "Faith alone" without works.
 

Totton Linnet

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You might be right about what IMJerusha believes, but you are not right about what I believe.

I do not preach the old law. I preach the new law.



That is what Paul said about someone under the OLD LAW and without faith!



I obey Jesus. Jesus' words are full of Spirit and life. How do you ever get that a person cannot overcome by faith and obedience to Christ!



I have not condemned anyone. Those who believe and obey Jesus are not condemned. Who but the devil would say anything so evil about believing and obeying Jesus?

If you feel condemned when I preached obedience to Christ, you must be getting convicted by the Holy Spirit.



You are badly mistaken.

If you could not keep Moses law you sure fire cain't keep Christ's word not if you treat them as commandments to be saved by.

Grace requirements are out of sight more difficult to achieve by treating them as law.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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James 2:17 states; "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
James is preaching to the Jews not to the gentiles. We must "Rightly Divide"
the Bible. James is preaching the "Kingdom Message" to the Jews alone not
to the gentiles.
 

Totton Linnet

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James 2:17 states; "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
James is preaching to the Jews not to the gentiles. We must "Rightly Divide"
the Bible. James is preaching the "Kingdom Message" to the Jews alone not
to the gentiles.

I mean the letter he wrote in Acts 15 expressly saying that the Gentiles were not bound to keep the law of Moses. The Apostles were united.
 

God's Truth

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Although that is true yet He taught them salvation by grace through faith, Paul also preached the Kingdom, the difference is that the church inherit the heavenly portion but the Jews the earthly.

The inheritance is the same for ALL.
But the church includes all the Jews who were saved.

To the possuls Christ said "I go and prepare a place for you" that's a place in heaven.

Jesus prepared a place for all the saved.
 

Danoh

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You are following Spurgeon's logic there, he thought it could not be an unsaved person because sin means little to the unsaved...but sin DOES mean much to the Jew under the law and to religious but unsaved people.

I am not mid-acts though I hold Paul to be our apostle.

Have never read Spurgeon.

I study Scripture from, and ever in search in it, for its general rules of thumb as to how to get at its passage's intended sense.

Over time, that has allowed me some awareness of the tendency of far to mean to read into another's words without first ferreting out principles as to how to do so soundly.

I'll have to conclude that is still your take on "his" and or my "logic."

I always ask "what might he be basing whatever it is he is actually saying on - what general rules of thumb does it/he appear to be following here? And where is its' principle the same? And where does it differ? How might I know soundly? What general rule thumb from what passage and or passages might help me towards that?"

Extracting a general rule of thumb from the following, for example...

2 Corinthians 4:

16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The inward man principle, I know that Paul is not talking about himself as a lost man in Romans 7 and 8.

For in 8, he continues the same issue - of how that sin revives and one dies when they fail to serve with their mind.

That is, the condemnation unto that the Believer experiences when they fail to walk "in newness of life" - in an understanding of the new life - from a mind renewed by the Spirit through His Word as to its details - Romans 8:

5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The issue in verse 8 is in light of all that in Romans 6-8 is that when the believer minds the things of the flesh, he finds a law - that he is unable to walk in his new identity in Christ.

Romans 7:

21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:

12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

How do you mortify through the Spirit the deeds of the body the flesh would have you walk in?

Not through the Law of Moses, is Paul's point - "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Gal. 3:21.

Rather, through mortify the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit with your mind.

Huh?

Galatians 5:

16. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

If you mind the things of the Spirit, you will not mind, or focus on the things of the flesh that the Law had meant to focus one on towards proving that "all the world guilty," Rom. 3:19.

Galatians 3:

21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The purpose of the Law had been what then?

22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There it is - the key to victory over this condemnation of death - Colossians 2:

6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

God's Truth

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If you could not keep Moses law you sure fire cain't keep Christ's word not if you treat them as commandments to be saved by.

What you say is illogical.

Not only that, there are people who kept the law blamelessly.

Grace requirements are out of sight more difficult to achieve by treating them as law.

What are you calling grace requirements?

Do you mean the teachings of Jesus?

You are a badly confused person.

The teachings of Jesus never are wrong to obey, even if you call his teachings the new law, for that is what his teachings are.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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A good rule to follow is, pray to God the Father in the name
of the Lord Jesus Christ, to give us understanding and wisdom
to understand what we're about to read. (in the Bible) We
ought not to depend on commentaries, articles in magazines,
or other men's opinions. Let God open up His Written Word to
us, that we may have Spiritual discernment, understanding, and
wisdom of what we're about to read.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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I used to read commentaries and such but, someone gave me some good
advise, and I no longer depend on other men's thoughts, regarding God's
Written Word, the Holy Bible!
 

IMJerusha

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we are not talking about paul being sinless
there is complete agreement that he was not

we are talking about his inability to stop sinning

Exactly. He asked Yeshua to take it away because he either couldn't control it or just kept repeating it. Yeshua said my grace is sufficient to point out to Paul the necessity of his reliance on Him and the necessity for Paul and all believers to strive to remain in Him.
 
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