Forced Vaccination is Wrong

[PureX]

Where do you stand with forced vaccination, exactly?

The government has the right to force people to adhere to public health and safety laws. That's exactly the kind of thing that we establish governments to do. The problem is that Americans can no longer trust their own government to make decisions that benefit their health and safety. So that the solution is not to stop government from enforcing health and safety laws, (or eliminating government, as some of the idiots among us like to fantasize about) the solution is to stop the wholesale corruption of government by wealthy conglomerates and corporations that do not have the citizen's health and safety as a goal. And who will in fact routinely compromise that goal in the pursuit of profit.

And to compound this distrust, we also have a very selfish and self-centered populace that insists that they should never be told what to do, or what not to do, by anyone, for any reason, ever. Which is ludicrous given the fact that there are now 330 million of us trying to live together in a very interdependent cultural, social, and economic system. Necessitating ever greater degrees of control and oversight to maintain individual rights, freedoms, and responsibilities.

Thanks to a half century of incessant mass-media advertising telling us all that we should have everything we want, when we want it, and how we want it; we now have an infantilized population that cannot accept the limitation of their own selfish desires. And are thus unable to take responsibility for having allowed their own government to be so thoroughly corrupted by the same corporate entities that are producing all that morally corrosive advertising.

The problem here is clear if one has their eyes open and their minds working: the problem is the coercion of government and the corrosion of social responsibility by corporate entities seeking profits at the cost of citizen's moral (spiritual) and physical health and safety.

 

[fzappa13]

This whole issue is just another example of our selfishness and paranoia running away with us.

It's very sad what 'we the people' have been reduced to via the onslaught of greed and stupidity perpetrated by 75 years of mass media.

Playing on fear is the oldest trick in the book. It ceases to be effective once you finally face it down. Sorta like the neighborhood bully.

 

[fzappa13]

The government has the right to force people to adhere to public health and safety laws. That's exactly the kind of thing that we establish governments to do. The problem is that Americans can no longer trust their own government to make decisions that benefit their health and safety. So that the solution is not to stop government from enforcing health and safety laws, (or eliminating government, as some of the idiots among us like to fantasize about) the solution is to stop the wholesale corruption of government by wealthy conglomerates and corporations that do not have the citizen's health and safety as a goal. And who will in fact routinely compromise that goal in the pursuit of profit.

And to compound this distrust, we also have a very selfish and self-centered populace that insists that they should never be told what to do, or what not to do, by anyone, for any reason, ever. Which is ludicrous given the fact that there are now 330 million of us trying to live together in a very interdependent cultural, social, and economic system. Necessitating ever greater degrees of control and oversight to maintain individual rights, freedoms, and responsibilities.

Thanks to a half century of incessant mass-media advertising telling us all that we should have everything we want, when we want it, and how we want it; we now have an infantilized population that cannot accept the limitation of their own selfish desires. And are thus unable to take responsibility for having allowed their own government to be so thoroughly corrupted by the same corporate entities that are producing all that morally corrosive advertising.

The problem here is clear if one has their eyes open and their minds working: the problem is the coercion of government and the corrosion of social responsibility by corporate entities seeking profits at the cost of citizen's moral (spiritual) and physical health and safety.

... and the solution is?

 

[fzappa13]

The government has the right to force people to adhere to public health and safety laws.

The government has no right other than that which the people who created it give it.

 

[PureX]

Originally Posted by PureX:

The government has the right to force people to adhere to public health and safety laws. That's exactly the kind of thing that we establish governments to do. The problem is that Americans can no longer trust their own government to make decisions that benefit their health and safety. So that the solution is not to stop government from enforcing health and safety laws, (or eliminating government, as some of the idiots among us like to fantasize about) the solution is to stop the wholesale corruption of government by wealthy conglomerates and corporations that do not have the citizen's health and safety as a goal. And who will in fact routinely compromise that goal in the pursuit of profit.

And to compound this distrust, we also have a very selfish and self-centered populace that insists that they should never be told what to do, or what not to do, by anyone, for any reason, ever. Which is ludicrous given the fact that there are now 330 million of us trying to live together in a very interdependent cultural, social, and economic system. Necessitating ever greater degrees of control and oversight to maintain individual rights, freedoms, and responsibilities.

Thanks to a half century of incessant mass-media advertising telling us all that we should have everything we want, when we want it, and how we want it; we now have an infantilized population that cannot accept the limitation of their own selfish desires. And are thus unable to take responsibility for having allowed their own government to be so thoroughly corrupted by the same corporate entities that are producing all that morally corrosive advertising.

The problem here is clear if one has their eyes open and their minds working: the problem is the coercion of government and the corrosion of social responsibility by corporate entities seeking profits at the cost of citizen's moral (spiritual) and physical health and safety.

... and the solution is?

 

[PureX]

The government has no right other than that which the people who created it give it.

Originally Posted by PureX:

The government has the right to force people to adhere to public health and safety laws. That's exactly the kind of thing that we establish governments to do.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You are right about that.



This shouldn't be exactly the way we have it, if we really want to save lives and money all around.

Its not just about lives. If you hit me I expect you to make things right. Given the cost of auto repair these days, you probably can't do that without some kind of help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

This moral hazard also applies to vaccinators. They feel "insured" against disease and so take more risks, with negative consequences.

I don't find your argument to valid regarding vaccines. Just because we have our vaccinations up to date does not mean that we intentionally go to places where people are sick. There are several reasons for that. What vaccinations do accomplish is protect us from people like you you may be out in public while highly contagious without even knowing that you are.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I already know what you said. Vaccination. And that's with voluntary (not forced) vaccination!

And as voluntary compliance decrease the threat of epidemics increases.

Now horses don't trample and bite? What's next? They don't even have to do that to be dangerous. One knocked my aunt out cold by whipping it's head up, one broke her back by throwing her off violently. (horse trainers, what to do...!)

Why do horses bite and trample? Do you understand what a horse is and how it reacts? In the cases of your aunts, the horse presented no threat to public health. Infectious disease do. I never said horses were risk free, quite the opposite in fact. What I said is that they do not present a public health threat.

Yes, those things are also at risk of being chopped for the same reason you want to chop natural living.

I don't want to chop natural living. On the other hand, I don't think your natural living should be allowed to put others at risk of catching an infectious disease. You have already proven that you do not understand the early stages of an outbreak and your ignorance puts others at risk.

"Tetanus bacteria live in soil, dust and manure, particularly horse manure"

Let me think for a minute. There was somebody on this thread that was saying there is no need for tetanus vaccinations because tetanus is not communicable. Who was that? In any case, it defeats your argument here. While tetanus is present in manure, it is not spread by horses.

Only in a free world. Once health ins. is mandated we have unhealthy fascism.

Welcome to the brave new world of the Affordable Care Act.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Playing on fear is the oldest trick in the book. It ceases to be effective once you finally face it down. Sorta like the neighborhood bully.

If somebody claims that vaccines cause autism, they are playing to fear.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

And as voluntary compliance decrease the threat of epidemics increases.

The fact that free people chose to use vaccination to protect themselves does not mean that you can remove informed consent when they don't want to give it anymore. Case in point, the violent riots of GB over the smallpox vaccine.

Why do horses bite and trample? Do you understand what a horse is and how it reacts?

I've not owned horses personally but lived with horse breeder/tamers, so yeah, I do understand enough to converse with you. Rode horses, too. Large, pony, and miniature. Used to read horse books and old literature with enough accounts of horse trampling. Some horses are ear-shy; some are biters. Even today horses can trample in public if a parade goes wrong - or even a nice horse walk down the road can turn sour.

Say a little girl is walking home from school and tries to pet a pony's nose over the fence - and - chomp. Public health threat. Possibly stitches, meaning hospital trip and risk of infection. And bills.

In the cases of your aunts, the horse presented no threat to public health. Infectious disease do.

Not with voluntary disease control. You make it sound like you have to assault people with needles to keep them "safe."

If you are willing to give up freedom for safety, you deserve neither, as the old adage goes.

I never said horses were risk free, quite the opposite in fact. What I said is that they do not present a public health threat.

Unless they are traveling public roadways or giving rides.

I don't want to chop natural living. On the other hand, I don't think your natural living should be allowed to put others at risk of catching an infectious disease.

That's what I think about your UNNATURAL living. You put others at risk like a flippant auto-insurance owner because you assume being vaccinated makes you safe enough to spread what you catch.

You have already proven that you do not understand the early stages of an outbreak and your ignorance puts others at risk.

I have demonstrated that I do understand and that you are grasping. Sorry, that's how I see it.

Let me think for a minute. There was somebody on this thread that was saying there is no need for tetanus vaccinations because tetanus is not communicable.

Not from person to person, still true. And not only that, you won't get rid of tetanus risk if your horse leaves plop on the road. That's how you spread tetanus, and no vaccine will eradicate that truth.

Who was that? In any case, it defeats your argument here. While tetanus is present in manure, it is not spread by horses.

Unless you count manure that is spread around with tetanus in it.

Welcome to the brave new world of the Affordable Care Act.

At least we agree on something.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Its not just about lives. If you hit me I expect you to make things right. Given the cost of auto repair these days, you probably can't do that without some kind of help.

It doesn't protect you if they care less about smashing into your car/fence/house.

Also, it doesn't make sense to use auto insurance when you could win a settlement and garnish wages. You are putting people under a forced financial burden that is so great it precludes rainy day savings for those who are strapped when an accident happens. It's a self perpetuating problem.

And savings encourages you to not get in an accident, so as to keep that money for other good uses.

I don't find your argument to valid regarding vaccines. Just because we have our vaccinations up to date does not mean that we intentionally go to places where people are sick. There are several reasons for that. What vaccinations do accomplish is protect us from people like you you may be out in public while highly contagious without even knowing that you are.

Sure you go places that are diseased. You go to the well-checkups. That's a good place to get pinkeye. Whoops, no vaccine for that... Or MRSA.

Plus, if you catch a disease at work, church or out shopping, even if it's contagious, what motivates you to stay home when you assume it must be an "okay" infection, since you already had a few shots in your life?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

If somebody claims that vaccines cause autism, they are playing to fear.

That is bologna slime.

The research on the autism connection has not been honest. Case in point, the last study. In it they used an insurance company (known for its morality, no doubt. :rotfl And mixed vaccines up so bad you can't tell what's causing what.

 

[CabinetMaker]

That is bologna slime.

The research on the autism connection has not been honest. Case in point, the last study. In it they used an insurance company (known for its morality, no doubt. :rotfl And mixed vaccines up so bad you can't tell what's causing what.

You cannot point to one scientific study that proves a link between vaccination and autism. Yet you continue to claim that vaccines can cause autism. Or you claim that vaccines damage people with no comment on what "damaged" means. You are playing to peoples fears.

 

[BOLCATS]

If somebody claims that vaccines cause autism, they are playing to fear.

Vaccines cause gastrointestinal damage and immune system damage. The developing brain of a child needs nutrition. With a damaged gastrointestinal system , proper nutrition is compromised. Autism is an artificial label applied to an array of behaviors brought on by such damage.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The fact that free people chose to use vaccination to protect themselves does not mean that you can remove informed consent when they don't want to give it anymore. Case in point, the violent riots of GB over the smallpox vaccine.

Protect themselves from what, precisely? You claim vaccines damage people but don't define what that damage is. Or how prevalent it is. You are playing to peoples fear.

I've not owned horses personally but lived with horse breeder/tamers, so yeah, I do understand enough to converse with you. Rode horses, too. Large, pony, and miniature. Used to read horse books and old literature with enough accounts of horse trampling. Some horses are ear-shy; some are biters. Even today horses can trample in public if a parade goes wrong - or even a nice horse walk down the road can turn sour.

Say a little girl is walking home from school and tries to pet a pony's nose over the fence - and - chomp. Public health threat. Possibly stitches, meaning hospital trip and risk of infection. And bills.

A horse that bites a little girls is a public health threat. Really. Why didn't the parents teach the child not to trespass. Horses don't bite for no reason, they have to be provoked. What was the girl doing to provoke the horse. Sorry, but a horse is not an infectious disease and does not represent a public health threat. That does not mean that a horse cannot hurt somebody in the general public, it means that the horse is not a threat to the health of public by spreading disease.

Not with voluntary disease control. You make it sound like you have to assault people with needles to keep them "safe."

I have never said nor implied any such thing. I have stated that I think schools have the right to exclude those who are not vaccinated in the interest of maintaining a student health. Don't want to get vaccinated, don't. Just don't complain because you fail to meet the requirements for attending public schools.

If you are willing to give up freedom for safety, you deserve neither, as the old adage goes.

Nobody is giving up freedom. You are free to home school. You are free to send your kids to a private school that accepts non-vaccinated students (you might even consider starting one). But if there are requirements for attending a public school and you fail to meet those requirements, why should the school be forced to take you?

Unless they are traveling public roadways or giving rides.

Even then they are not public health threats. Horses do not carry diseases that are passed to humans.

That's what I think about your UNNATURAL living. You put others at risk like a flippant auto-insurance owner because you assume being vaccinated makes you safe enough to spread what you catch.

Ah, but I don't spread what I catch because, surprise surprise, I don't catch it. (Assuming the vaccine was effective for me) See how that works?

I have demonstrated that I do understand and that you are grasping. Sorry, that's how I see it.

I am sure that is exactly how you see it. Others who are actually familiar with the subject know that you do not understand.

Not from person to person, still true. And not only that, you won't get rid of tetanus risk if your horse leaves plop on the road. That's how you spread tetanus, and no vaccine will eradicate that truth.

The only way you would get tetanus from road apples is if you were touch them with an open wound on your hand. DO you routinely pick up road apples with your bare hands? Does anybody? We use muck rakes. If I do have to pick one up with my hands to check to see how well the horse is hydrated, I use a glove.

Unless you count manure that is spread around with tetanus in it.

Given that tetanus is already present in the soil, spreading manure around presents no additional risks, so no, I do not accept your poorly reasoned attempt to make horses a public health threat. Its just plain silly.

 

[BOLCATS]

Nobody even has a clear definition of autism , nor can you detect its presence through a blood test and yet parents know their child is severely damaged in development.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It doesn't protect you if they care less about smashing into your car/fence/house.

It protects me financially.

Also, it doesn't make sense to use auto insurance when you could win a settlement and garnish wages. You are putting people under a forced financial burden that is so great it precludes rainy day savings for those who are strapped when an accident happens. It's a self perpetuating problem.

And this is how insurance protects me financially. I could win a judgement but the attorney fees and expenses will easily wipe out 50% or more of the settlement. I could end up with not enough money to prepare the damage you caused. If I were to win a judgement against you of say 250,000 dollars, could you pay it? Most people cannot so the judgement may not be worth the paper its written on. On the other hand, I could take away you cars and savings and most everything else you have to settle the judgement. Where does that leave you?

And savings encourages you to not get in an accident, so as to keep that money for other good uses.

Accidents are called accidents for a reason. Nobody plans to go out and hit something. Insurance is like a savings plan. You pay a little each month so if something bad happens, you have the ability to cover it without financially wiping yourself out. Everybody hates to pay their insurance bill. Until they need the insurance.

Sure you go places that are diseased. You go to the well-checkups. That's a good place to get pinkeye. Whoops, no vaccine for that... Or MRSA.

Plus, if you catch a disease at work, church or out shopping, even if it's contagious, what motivates you to stay home when you assume it must be an "okay" infection, since you already had a few shots in your life?

I stay home when I feel like total road apples. I rather enjoy those days as I mix up a pitcher of Cool-aid and watch the entire Lord of the Rings extended cut trilogy. Like most people, if I have a runny nose, sneezes, sore throat and the like, I may go to work. I take extra precautions to wash hands and sneeze into tissues so as not spread anything but, because I have been vaccinated, I am only worried about spreading a cold or the flu, not MMR or something worse.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Vaccines cause gastrointestinal damage and immune system damage. The developing brain of a child needs nutrition. With a damaged gastrointestinal system , proper nutrition is compromised. Autism is an artificial label applied to an array of behaviors brought on by such damage.

Excellent example of playing to fear! An unsupported assertion offered as fact. Well don BOLCATS!

 

[BOLCATS]

Excellent example of playing to fear! An unsupported assertion offered as fact. Well don BOLCATS!

Its not unsupported assertion. There are many documented cases of vaccines causing gastrointestinal damage. Closing your eyes to reality does not help things.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Its not unsupported assertion. There are many documented cases of vaccines causing gastrointestinal damage. Closing your eyes to reality does not help things.

You did not provide any citation to any supporting documentation thus you made an unsupported assertion - fear mongering in this case.