Fire chief fired after gay comments in book

[TracerBullet]

you realize, of course, that you just went full retard, right?

you realize, of course, that you are projecting, right?

 

[Dialogos]

Cochran is a in a government that has pledged not to discriminate,

So why are they descriminating on the basis of Cochran's religious creed?

Hmmm?

by publishing and distributing his book where he puts gays on the same level as those who abuse children or animals he is saying that discrimination is justifiable.

Cochran didn't do that, pay attention.

The lines that got Cochran in trouble are the following:

“Uncleanness—whatever is opposite of purity; including sodomy, homosexuality, lesbianism, pederasty, bestiality, all other forms of sexual perversion.”

“Naked men refuse to give in, so they pursue sexual fulfillment through multiple partners, with the opposite sex, the same sex and sex outside of marriage and many other vile, vulgar and inappropriate ways which defile their body-temple and dishonor God.”

Full article here.

Cochran called homosexuality a sexual perversion like other sexual perversions, and it is.

Cochran also called it vile, vulgar and inappropriate, which it is, and said the same about promiscuity and having an affair (which they are).

But for the record, homosexuality is a sin, that God hates and that God punished by death in the Old Testament.

That's something all real Christians acknowledge.

 

[TracerBullet]

So why are they descriminating on the basis of Cochran's religious creed?

and how are they doing that?

Cochran published and distributed a book that make bigoted statements. He experienced the consequences of making bigoted statements.

Cochran didn't do that, pay attention.

seems he did

Cochran called homosexuality a sexual perversion like other sexual perversions, and it is.

Cochran also called it vile, vulgar and inappropriate, which it is, and said the same about promiscuity and having an affair (which they are).

and racists say the same thing about racial equality.

But for the record, homosexuality is a sin, that God hates and that God punished by death in the Old Testament.

Do you follow all the laws of the old testament?

That's something all real Christians acknowledge.

Being a christian is defined by one's relationship to God not by which minorities one chooses to hate.

 

[Dialogos]

and how are they doing that?

He was fired for adhering to biblical truth, ergo he was fired for communicating his religious beliefs.

Cochran published and distributed a book that make bigoted statements.

Lets see if you have any guts tracerbullet.

Here are a list of statements from the bible:

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13 ESV)​

Is this a bigoted statement?

Yes or no?

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22 ESV)​

Is this a bigoted statement?

Yes or no?

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:26-27 ESV)​

Is this a bigoted statement?

Yes or no?

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, (1 Timothy 1:8-10 ESV)
​

Is this a bigoted statement?

Do you think God is a bigot?

Do you follow all the laws of the old testament?

Do you follow any of them?

Being a christian is defined by one's relationship to God not by which minorities one chooses to hate.

You can lecture us about what a Christian is when you become one and not before.

:nono:

 

[Angel4Truth]

opcorn:

 

[rexlunae]

In what way were his employees discriminated against?

All the sources I have read said that he had not treated any employees unfairly.

Well, until he called an unknown number of them unclean perverts, presumably. That might have been seen as a bit unfair.

I'm sure that if all Christians would just keep our religious expressions for Sunday then all the problems would be solved, and our First Amendment rights would be limited to approx 4 hours per week.

That's not what I suggested, nor what I meant. But I understand that Christians tend to feel like if they can't express the whole of their faith everywhere, then they are being oppressed.

Two thoughts.

I've worked for bosses that were open and honest about their disdain for religion in general and Christianity in particular. I had to learn what people in previous generations learned before they finished high school which is that the world does not revolve around my feelings and that going to work is not about developing my self esteem its about providing for one's self and one's family.

What did the HR department say about it?

Second, all have said that Cochran was completely fair and treated all of his associates with professional respect.

Except for the person who complained.

Of course they are. But Cochran wasn't addressing any employee specifically, he was exposing what the bible says about homosexuality.

I don't see where that matters. He was expressing it to his employees.

Those who didn't care to know what he thought didn't have to read the book, they didn't even have to accept it the book.

Who doesn't want to know how the boss feels about them, when the chance arrises.

Baloney. If the chief were a gay man handing out fliers for the gay pride parade, and a Christian protested it would still be the Christian who fell under criticism.

That's not the same at all. A gay pride parade isn't a discriminatory attack directed at Christians.

Rehabilitate him from what?

Hmmm?

From his apparent inability to see how his actions marginalize some of his employees unfairly.

There is no evidence that Cochran wrote the book at work for for work, he didn't teach the material at work, he gave them a gift that they could read at their leisure or not.

What difference does that make? Did he tell them not to read it if they're gay or something?

It's headed that way.

Keep on telling yourself that.

As you stated, his was designed to rehabilitate him from something that didn't need rehabilitation.

He does if he wants to keep on being entrusted with a position of power.

I've been. I took a sensitivity training course on my own dime just to see what it was like.

I was asked to leave because I challenged the instructor on his hypocrisy.

Why does that not surprise me? Those classes aren't debates, you know.

He was making religious claims and then telling everyone that they needed to leave religion out if it.

What religious claim?

I did get my money back though.

And an invitation never to attend again?

 

[rexlunae]

but we don't know, so it was wrong for jo to assume

I don't really see why.

besides, my money's on the complainer being someone outside the small circle of recipients

Who?

 

[Dialogos]

Update:

Its confirmed, the whole fiasco was a witch hunt started by a retired gay firefighter who doesn't even live in Atlanta anymore.

"In late 2014, retired Atlanta Fire Department Capt.Cindy Thompson contacted GA Voice, a Georgian LGBT group, to protest Cochran’s book and its mention of homosexuality. Thompson then brought the book to the Mayor’s LGBT liaison, Robin Shahar. Soon afterwards, LGBT activist groups began to rally for the fire chief to be fired. (The Daily Signal)

And the Mayor, succumbing to pressure by the activist group, suspends Cochran and then uses the "he didn't get permission to write the book" as a pretext to fire him for upsetting the gay activists.

The truth comes out.

 

[Jose Fly]

Lets once again get the facts straight...

Employees of the Atlanta Fire Dept. (AFD) filed a complaint against Cochran after, during work hours and on city property, he gave employees copies of a book he'd written.

When city officials looked at the book, they saw that Cochran had identified himself as the City of Atlanta Fire Chief in the book, and it contained anti-gay rhetoric and a statement that he viewed his role as AFD Chief as a means to use the Dept. to "cultivate its culture to the Glory of God".

The City suspended Cochran for one month while it investigated the claims, and ordered Cochran to attend training and not speak publicly about the case while the investigation was ongoing.

During his suspension, Cochran deliberately and repeatedly spoke publicly about the case, violating the terms of his suspension.

The City decided that was insubordination and fired him for it (citing his "poor judgement").

The investigation was completed and found that: 1) Cochran did not go through the proper procedures to gain authorization to publish the book using his title as City of Atlanta Fire Chief, 2) Cochran distributed the book to his subordinates during work hours and on City property, 3) Cochran gave the book to subordinates who didn't request it, 4) there was no evidence Cochran had discriminated against anyone, and 5) the general view in the AFD was one of being "appalled" at the language in Cochran's book and that it had "eroded trust and have compromised the ability of the chief to provide leadership in the future".

 

[Jose Fly]

Update:

Its confirmed, the whole fiasco was a witch hunt started by a retired gay firefighter who doesn't even live in Atlanta anymore.

"In late 2014, retired Atlanta Fire Department Capt.Cindy Thompson contacted GA Voice, a Georgian LGBT group, to protest Cochran’s book and its mention of homosexuality. Thompson then brought the book to the Mayor’s LGBT liaison, Robin Shahar. Soon afterwards, LGBT activist groups began to rally for the fire chief to be fired. (The Daily Signal)

And the Mayor, succumbing to pressure by the activist group, suspends Cochran and then uses the "he didn't get permission to write the book" as a pretext to fire him for upsetting the gay activists.

The truth comes out.

Again, who filed the complaint or what their motives were doesn't change the facts.

 

[Dialogos]

Well, until he called an unknown number of them unclean perverts, presumably.

Along with folks who have affairs and those who shack up before marriage.

All true by the way, but the only thing that gets press is that the homos got their feelin's hurt.

That might have been seen as a bit unfair.

Really, how did that affect their ability to do their job, advance in their career, or be fairly compensated?

What did the HR department say about it?

Seriously?

I had neither the time nor the inclination to whine.

I went to work, did my job, and went home. I didn't spend a whole lot of time caring what she thought about my faith.

They use to call that having a spine.

Except for the person who complained.

You mean the retired firefighter who didn't even live in Atlanta anymore?

Discrimination in the workplace now applies to retired employees who live two time zones away?

:doh:

Why does that not surprise me? Those classes aren't debates, you know.

:chuckle:

He told the whole room at the beginning of the class that he wanted it to be as "participatory" as possible.

So I "shared."

What religious claim?

That homosexual preferences are just as valid as heterosexual preferences.

That's a religious claim.

And an invitation never to attend again?

Oh, I think that was understood.

:chuckle:

 

[Dialogos]

Lets once again get the facts straight...

Employees of the Atlanta Fire Dept. (AFD) filed a complaint against Cochran after, during work hours and on city property, he gave employees copies of a book he'd written.

Not what I've read.

Retired Atlanta Fire Department Captain Cindy Thompson, who is openly gay, was informed of the book by other firefighters who were disturbed by the book.

Article here.

The other firefighters complained to an ex-employee who then took up the cause and called a pro-homosexual lobbying group with the intent of getting the chief fired.

When city officials looked at the book, they saw that Cochran had identified himself as the City of Atlanta Fire Chief in the book

:jawdrop:

You mean he told the truth about what he did for a living in the book?

..and it contained anti-gay rhetoric and a statement that he viewed his role as AFD Chief as a means to use the Dept. to "cultivate its culture to the Glory of God".

Yeah, so?

There have to be millions of people who view their jobs as a way to cultivate a culture to the glory of God. That is, by the way, what the bible tells Christians to do.

Should we fire all of them as well?

The City suspended Cochran for one month while it investigated the claims,

In which they found no discrimination in the workplace whatsoever...

and ordered Cochran to attend training

Re-education, that is...

and not speak publicly about the case while the investigation was ongoing.

Another violation of the first amendment.

During his suspension, Cochran deliberately and repeatedly spoke publicly about the case, violating the terms of his suspension.

And honoring the First Amendment.

The City decided that was insubordination and fired him for it (citing his "poor judgement").

Code for, "we've gotta fire him for something other than what we are really firing him for."

Cochran wrote something that offended some gay firefighters, they took the book to their retired gay friend who used a pro-homosexual lobbyist group to pressure the city to fire the chief, bottom line.

The investigation was completed and found that: 1) Cochran did not go through the proper procedures to gain authorization to publish the book using his title as City of Atlanta Fire Chief,

:yawn:

The Mayor had been in possession of the book since January of 2014. Why didn't Cochran receive the suspension 10 months prior if it were really about the proper procedure to write a book?

Hmmm?

2) Cochran distributed the book to his subordinates during work hours

Which happens all the time and no one gets suspended. Incidentally, Cochran was ordered to go to sensitivity training re-education not to teach him the town policy on publishing books but to "correct" his views on homosexuality.

and on City property, 3) Cochran gave the book to subordinates who didn't request it,

As gifts that could just as well have been refused, or just not read..

4) there was no evidence Cochran had discriminated against anyone,

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

And therefore Cochran was suspended unjustly.

Reed said:

I was surprised and disappointed to learn of this book on Friday. I profoundly disagree with and am deeply disturbed by the sentiments expressed in the paperback regarding the LGBT community. I will not tolerate discrimination of any kind within my administration.

They didn't find any and Cochran was fired anyway.

Why?

Because the Mayor fears the pro-homosexual activists who pressured him in the first place.

and 5) the general view in the AFD was one of being "appalled" at the language in Cochran's book and that it had "eroded trust and have compromised the ability of the chief to provide leadership in the future".

It eroded the trust and confidence that Mayor spineless may have had in his leadership despite the fact that Cochran had been firechief for over. This is really just code talk for "in order to appease the pro-homosexual activists, Cochran has to go."

 

[Dialogos]

It just gets worse:

What does it mean that Cochran was uncoorporative during his suspension?

Even thegavoice recognizes the truth!


From thegavoice:
"If you work in an organization, you check in with person signs your check. And that didn’t happen here. And after that happened there was no contrition about it,” Reed said. Cochran spoke publicly about his suspension at religious events during his suspension, drawing the ire of the mayor."

So now the government can tell you what you can and can't say in your own place of worship during a suspension. And if you don't keep your mouth shut in church, you can be fired.

:nono:

 

[Jose Fly]

Not what I've read.

The other firefighters complained to an ex-employee who then took up the cause and called a pro-homosexual lobbying group with the intent of getting the chief fired.

Again, who filed the complaint is irrelevant and doesn't change the facts.

You mean he told the truth about what he did for a living in the book?

Hi, I'm Jose Fly Chief of Police for the City of New York, and I want to tell you how I believe all white people are spawns of the devil.

Apparently you think there should be no consequences for such a thing.

Yeah, so?

There have to be millions of people who view their jobs as a way to cultivate a culture to the glory of God. That is, by the way, what the bible tells Christians to do.

Should we fire all of them as well?

I'm sure you would feel exactly the same if Cochran had been a member of the Nation of Islam and had written and distributed to his employees a book that said white people are evil and he views his position as an opportunity to use the AFD to glorify Allah.

In which they found no discrimination in the workplace whatsoever...

Correct.

Another violation of the first amendment.

And honoring the First Amendment.

Again, this is just another concept that is apparently beyond your abilities to understand. I suppose you get really upset every time an official says "We are unable to comment while the investigation is ongoing."

Code for, "we've gotta fire him for something other than what we are really firing him for."

Cochran wrote something that offended some gay firefighters, they took the book to their retired gay friend who used a pro-homosexual lobbyist group to pressure the city to fire the chief, bottom line.

And you know, even if that was the case, by going public while on suspension and before the investigation had been completed, Cochran handed them an excuse to fire him on a silver platter.

The Mayor had been in possession of the book since January of 2014. Why didn't Cochran receive the suspension 10 months prior if it were really about the proper procedure to write a book?

Hmmm?

I don't know. You'd have to ask the Mayor. That still doesn't change the facts of the case.

Which happens all the time and no one gets suspended. Incidentally, Cochran was ordered to go to sensitivity training re-education not to teach him the town policy on publishing books but to "correct" his views on homosexuality.

Really? Department Heads author anti-gay books under their professional title, and distribute them to subordinates at work who didn't request them....all the time?

Can you show another example of this happening?

As gifts that could just as well have been refused, or just not read..

Sorry, but "you can just ignore it" is not justification for distributing anti-gay literature to subordinates during work hours.

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

And therefore Cochran was suspended unjustly.

You still don't even have the very basic facts right. He wasn't suspended for discrimination.

They didn't find any and Cochran was fired anyway.

Why?

Geez dude, what is wrong with you? He was fired for insubordination, not discrimination. Are you too thick for that to get through or something?

Because the Mayor fears the pro-homosexual activists who pressured him in the first place.

Maybe so, but even if that's the case, by violating the terms of his suspension, Cochran gave them an excuse on a silver platter.

It eroded the trust and confidence that Mayor spineless may have had in his leadership despite the fact that Cochran had been firechief for over. This is really just code talk for "in order to appease the pro-homosexual activists, Cochran has to go."

If a Mayor determines that one of his Dept. Heads is unable to effectively lead his Dept., he can fire him. Given that the general feeling among the AFD was that Cochran's ability to lead had been eroded, shouldn't the Mayor have the freedom to fire him?

Or are you going to argue that even when a Dept. Head creates such an environment within the Dept., the Mayor must be forced to keep him?

 

[Jose Fly]

"If you work in an organization, you check in with person signs your check.

Yes, the policy is clear. If you're going to do something (e.g., write a book) using your professional title, you must first check with your supervisor to make sure it's OK. Cochran didn't do that. No one disputes that.

And that didn’t happen here. And after that happened there was no contrition about it,” Reed said.

Right. So not only did Cochran violate city policy, after he was informed of his error he didn't show any signs of regret for doing so.

Cochran spoke publicly about his suspension at religious events during his suspension, drawing the ire of the mayor."

So now the government can tell you what you can and can't say in your own place of worship during a suspension. And if you don't keep your mouth shut in church, you can be fired.

According to reports, Cochran basically went on a mini-tour of local churches specifically to speak about the case. So this wasn't like he was only speaking privately to his pastor, where the conversation would be legally protected. No, he saw an opportunity to make himself a martyr and ran with it.

 

[rexlunae]

Along with folks who have affairs and those who shack up before marriage.

...but the only thing that gets press is that the homos got their feelin's hurt.

Gee, go figure. The group that gets a response is the one with an active civil rights base.

Really, how did that affect their ability to do their job, advance in their career, or be fairly compensated?

Well, it certainly seems likely that whoever the next chief is, gay people will have less to worry about now in each of those categories. Don't you think?

The dumbest thing you can do, as a bigot, is out yourself. But fortunately, most bigots don't have the brains to keep their mouths shut.

Seriously?

I had neither the time nor the inclination to whine.

Until now, apparently. Why should I give you credit when it wasn't a big enough deal at the time for you to do anything about it?

I went to work, did my job, and went home. I didn't spend a whole lot of time caring what she thought about my faith.

Nor should you have to.

They use to call that having a spine.

It's a lot easier having a spine when you aren't part of a group that is systematically required to have and use one.

You mean the retired firefighter who didn't even live in Atlanta anymore?

Discrimination in the workplace now applies to retired employees who live two time zones away?

:doh:

Meh. It was apparently enough of an issue for the union to take it up. And as a result, no one had to out themselves who still works for a living. So ask yourself, how did this retired Firefighter find out about it? He wouldn't have been offered a copy.

He told the whole room at the beginning of the class that he wanted it to be as "participatory" as possible.

So I "shared."

I think you probably missed the point.

That homosexual preferences are just as valid as heterosexual preferences.

That's a religious claim.

The fact that your religion teaches some dumb thing about it doesn't make what your instructor teaches a religious claim. Your instructor wasn't invoking religion. He was presumably invoking the legal and medical consensus on the subject. You are the one who dragged religion into it.

 

[kmoney]

Lets once again get the facts straight...

Employees of the Atlanta Fire Dept. (AFD) filed a complaint against Cochran after, during work hours and on city property, he gave employees copies of a book he'd written.

When city officials looked at the book, they saw that Cochran had identified himself as the City of Atlanta Fire Chief in the book, and it contained anti-gay rhetoric and a statement that he viewed his role as AFD Chief as a means to use the Dept. to "cultivate its culture to the Glory of God".

The City suspended Cochran for one month while it investigated the claims, and ordered Cochran to attend training and not speak publicly about the case while the investigation was ongoing.

During his suspension, Cochran deliberately and repeatedly spoke publicly about the case, violating the terms of his suspension.

The City decided that was insubordination and fired him for it (citing his "poor judgement").

The investigation was completed and found that: 1) Cochran did not go through the proper procedures to gain authorization to publish the book using his title as City of Atlanta Fire Chief, 2) Cochran distributed the book to his subordinates during work hours and on City property, 3) Cochran gave the book to subordinates who didn't request it, 4) there was no evidence Cochran had discriminated against anyone, and 5) the general view in the AFD was one of being "appalled" at the language in Cochran's book and that it had "eroded trust and have compromised the ability of the chief to provide leadership in the future".

There are still some things that I'm curious about, like who exactly complained and how exactly Cochran picked the recipients and how he went about giving it to them, but considering the parts in bold I think I can understand their decisions.

 

[TracerBullet]

He was fired for adhering to biblical truth, ergo he was fired for communicating his religious beliefs.

It's pretty common for those who hate to hide behind religion

holding up a bible doesn't make the bigotry good or just or moral

Lets see if you have any guts tracerbullet.

Here are a list of statements from the bible:

and likewise the Curse of Ham, parts of the Song of Solomon, verses in Deuteronomy and Numbers have all been used by racists to justify their hate.

Does that make God a racist?

Do you follow any of them?

so your answer is "no" you don't follow all the laws

You can lecture us about what a Christian is when you become one and not before.

:nono:

Being a christian is defined by one's relationship to God not by which minorities one chooses to hate.

 

[TracerBullet]

That's not what I suggested, nor what I meant. But I understand that Christians tend to feel like if they can't express the whole of their faith everywhere, then they are being oppressed.

Bigotry is not an expression of Christian faith

 

[PureX]

There are still some things that I'm curious about, like who exactly complained and how exactly Cochran picked the recipients and how he went about giving it to them, but considering the parts in bold I think I can understand their decisions.

Yes, the issue seems to rest not so much on the content of the book, as on the it being presented to the public as representative of the city administration. The reason he was supposed to get the city's permission in advance of publishing was exactly because as the fire chief, he is a representative of the city administration. And as such the 'city' has a right to know and amend how it is being represented.

The chief ignored this fact, and then represented the city in ways that the city was not aligned with. And that was cause for his dismissal.