Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

[Stripe]

Well, if you want to call it a theory, then I am one of many who have disproved it with evidence.

:darwinsm:

You run away screaming any time the "E" word arises.

Where did the material that makes up a meteorite come from, according to the Hydroplate [theory]

When you've spent some time learning what it is you pretend you have disproved, let us know. :up:

 

[Stuu]

When you've spent some time learning what it is you pretend you have disproved, let us know. :up:

Well, thank you for your reply, and yes I agree that it would be very strange, and incorrect to assert that the material found in meteorites came from the earth.

Here is another fact that disproves hydroplate fantasy:

The metal crystals in this meteorite form what is known as a Widmanstätten pattern. They are only found in meteorites, and are of a size and type that require a very long period of slow cooling. That is demonstrated by showing the relatively tiny size of crystals that form in mixtures of iron and nickel of the same composition when allowed to cool slowly in the lab.

These crystals in meteorites require cooling that is so slow it takes a few million years to drop by a couple of hundred degrees. So wherever these meteorites came from, it wasn't from the earth.

Stuart

 

[6days]

These crystals in meteorites require cooling that is so slow it takes a few million years to drop by a couple of hundred degrees. So wherever these meteorites came from, it wasn't from the earth.

Stuu... although I don't understand the

Widmanstätten pattern; I do understand the need of evolutionists to make data fit their beliefs. If dates can bounce around by hundreds of millions of years...is it science? (No... starting with the conclusion then interpreting data to fit...is NOT science)


The cooling rates predicted by the new model are two orders of magnitude greater than those of previous studies. "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0016703785900328

 

[Jose Fly]

I do understand the need of evolutionists to make data fit their beliefs.

Even though I should be used to it by now, it still amazes me to see you accuse others of your own faults.

No... starting with the conclusion then interpreting data to fit...is NOT science

Exactly. And because you adhere to the framework of....

By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record

....you are definitely not someone whose views on science are of value.

 

[Stuu]

Stuu... although I don't understand the

Widmanstätten pattern; I do understand the need of evolutionists to make data fit their beliefs. If dates can bounce around by hundreds of millions of years...is it science? (No... starting with the conclusion then interpreting data to fit...is NOT science)


The cooling rates predicted by the new model are two orders of magnitude greater than those of previous studies. "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0016703785900328

Here's a more recent review, upon which the Wikipedia page is based, which includes data from the paper you cited.

I think the point of the paper you cited was to consider the size of the object that contained the meteorite sample in question. Obviously cooling of an alloy trapped in a larger object would take longer than in a smaller one. The paper gives cooling rates of 100 to 10,000 °C/Myr, so for diffusion of nickel atoms in kamacite, wrapped up in a larger object, the samples with the biggest crystals would go at 100 °C/Myr,from 700°C to 450°C, taking 2.5 million years. Other crystals might not be as big and so wouldn't have taken as long, but we are talking about objects that are vastly older than a few thousand years, were never on the earth, and in any case didn't form from lumps of granite 'hydroplate'.

Stuart

 

[Stripe]

Well, thank you for your reply, and yes I agree that it would be very strange, and incorrect to assert that the material found in meteorites came from the earth.

:AMR:

My, but you're a strange one.

How on Earth did you come up with this?

The metal crystals in this meteorite form what is known as a Widmanstätten pattern. They are only found in meteorites, and are of a size and type that require a very long period of slow cooling.

Nope.

Crystallization can occur along different paths depending on the ratio of substances in a melt as well as the temperature and pressure conditions from which cooling began.

Again, you've simply parrotted a Wiki article without even trying to understand the idea you are desperate to disprove.

Wherever these meteorites came from, it wasn't from the earth.

Why not? Presumably you think they cooled over millions of years inside another planet and then they escaped that planet's gravity.

Why couldn't that have happened here?

 

[Stripe]

We are talking about objects that are vastly older than a few thousand years, were never on the earth, and in any case didn't form from lumps of granite 'hydroplate'.

Again your ignorance is exposed. These meteorites aren't proposed to have come from the granitic body of the hydroplates, but from nickel/iron accumulations, which require high temperatures to form.

How do you think these metals reached more than 1,000^oC? Not inside an asteroid, I hope.

 

[Jonahdog]

Again your ignorance is exposed. These meteorites aren't proposed to have come from the granitic body of the hydroplates, but from nickel/iron accumulations, which require high temperatures to form.

How do you think these metals reached more than 1,000^oC? Not inside an asteroid, I hope.

Please tell us.

 

[6days]

...you are definitely not someone whose views on science are of value.

My 'views on science' conflict with your theology / philosophy.

The problem for you Jose is that your 'views on science' often are in opposition to the data. For example throughout the past couple weeks you keep trying to explain the data away with rescue devices such as synergistic epistasis.

Jose.... you have a belief system that has often hindered science...and even harmed people. You seem to adhere to a statement of faith, which admits you are unwilling to follow evidence no matter where it leads... "we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute..." Geneticist Prof. R. Lewontin

 

[Greg Jennings]

Argument from ignorance.

"I, Stuart, cannot conceive of a way that an ark that size could be built, therefore it must not have been built."

:think:

JR, throwing out fallacy and goalposts a la 6days is not a way to conduct a conversation. Do you live near a university?

If so, I'd encourage you to go have a face-to-face interaction with a geologist, archaeologist, or paleontologist there. You can't hide behind "fallacy" in person. And he could answer your objections in real time.

Will you consider doing that?

 

[Greg Jennings]

Crystallization can occur along different paths depending on the ratio of substances in a melt as well as the temperature and pressure conditions from which cooling began.

Again, you've simply parrotted a Wiki article without even trying to understand the idea you are desperate to disprove.

This is actually something I know a lot about. I did a paper on Widmanstatten patterns, and I examined hundreds in the petrology lab.

Yo be straight, you're stupid if you think that occurs on Earth (below the atmosphere anyway). No iron on this planet looks like a Widmanstatten pattern under a microscope. None. I'm 100%, and so was my Stanford educated petrology professor. Oh yeah, and ALL geologists

This is simply a fact. If you disagree, I'm afraid I'll be painfully aware of how hard you try to stay away from universities


Honestly, you can ignore the above part of this post because this question will tell me all I need: Have you ever looked at a Widmanstatten pattern in person ?? If so, where?

 

[Stripe]

You're stupid if you think that occurs on Earth (below the atmosphere anyway).

Below the atmosphere? :AMR:

Wouldn't that be everywhere?

No iron on this planet looks like a Widmanstatten pattern under a microscope. None. I'm 100%, and so was my Stanford educated petrology professor. Oh yeah, and ALL geologists

So it can't form at great depths?

Where can it form?

This is simply a fact. If you disagree, I'm afraid I'll be painfully aware of how hard you try to stay away from universities Honestly, you can ignore the above part of this post because this question will tell me all I need: Have you ever looked at a Widmanstatten pattern in person ?? If so, where?

:rotfl:

 

[George Affleck]

This is actually something I know a lot about. I did a paper on Widmanstatten patterns, and I examined hundreds in the petrology lab.

Yo be straight, you're stupid if you think that occurs on Earth (below the atmosphere anyway). No iron on this planet looks like a Widmanstatten pattern under a microscope. None. I'm 100%, and so was my Stanford educated petrology professor. Oh yeah, and ALL geologists

This is simply a fact. If you disagree, I'm afraid I'll be painfully aware of how hard you try to stay away from universities


Honestly, you can ignore the above part of this post because this question will tell me all I need: Have you ever looked at a Widmanstatten pattern in person ?? If so, where?

"Widmanstatten structures tend to form within a certain temperature range, growing larger over time. In carbon steel, for example, Widmanstatten structures form during tempering if the steel is held within a range around 500 °F (260 °C) for long periods of time. These structures form as needle or plate-like growths of cementite within the crystal boundaries of the martensite. This increases the brittleness of the steel in a way that can only be relieved by recrystallizing. Widmanstatten structures made from ferrite sometimes occur in carbon steel, if the carbon content is below but near the eutectoid composition (~ 0.8% carbon). This occurs as long needles of ferrite within the pearlite."

"However, the appearance, the composition and the formation process of these terrestrial Widmanstatten structures are different from the characteristic structure of iron meteorites."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanstätten_pattern

 

[George Affleck]

 

[George Affleck]

Why is everyone here assuming that, if the waters covered the whole earth, the weather and the waves would be anything like what we see today?

 

[Greg Jennings]

"Widmanstatten structures tend to form within a certain temperature range, growing larger over time. In carbon steel, for example, Widmanstatten structures form during tempering if the steel is held within a range around 500 °F (260 °C) for long periods of time. These structures form as needle or plate-like growths of cementite within the crystal boundaries of the martensite. This increases the brittleness of the steel in a way that can only be relieved by recrystallizing. Widmanstatten structures made from ferrite sometimes occur in carbon steel, if the carbon content is below but near the eutectoid composition (~ 0.8% carbon). This occurs as long needles of ferrite within the pearlite."

"However, the appearance, the composition and the formation process of these terrestrial Widmanstatten structures are different from the characteristic structure of iron meteorites."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanstätten_pattern

I guess I needed to say "naturally." I thought that was clear.

Of course we can create them in the lab (THOUGH your source there says they are still quite different from those in meteorites). Just like we can grow diamonds. But in a natural setting, it's only atmospheric heating of a meteorite.

 

[Greg Jennings]

Why is everyone here assuming that, if the waters covered the whole earth, the weather and the waves would be anything like what we see today?

Why wouldn't they be?

And where is the evidence for waves covering all of Earth at once? There are plenty of evidences against it

 

[Greg Jennings]

Last I checked, steel isn't found in the wild

 

[Greg Jennings]

Below the atmosphere? :AMR:

Wouldn't that be everywhere?

No. The atmosphere provides the heat. Places below it (outside of artificial lab settings, as GA pointed out) don't cause Widmanstatten patterns

So it can't form at great depths?

Where can it form?

Now I'm going from memory of a couple years back, BUT I'm pretty sure the conditions required are normal or slightly lessened pressure, and immense heat followed by rapid cooling. I'm not saying there isn't some deep place with strangely light pressure where this could POSSIBLY occur, but we haven't found it if it does.

 

[Stuu]

Crystallization can occur along different paths depending on the ratio of substances in a melt as well as the temperature and pressure conditions from which cooling began.

Here is the phase diagram from that Wikipedia article:

The Staunton meteorite includes kamacite with taenite, and the iron includes 8.6% nickel. So if you follow the vertical line that sits at 8.6% on the phase diagram you can see that the phase change occurs about 700˚C; it's actually 723 ˚C.

So it's not until the meteor has cooled below 1000˚C that kamacite can form at all. But the melting point of the iron-nickel alloy is around 1500˚C, roughly the melting point of iron. So this is not crystallisation from a melt, but a painfully slow recrystallisation by diffusion of atoms through a solid metallic lattice.

For the largest crystal the meteorite has to stay as high as possible below that 723˚C for millions of year, because the cooler it gets the slower the diffusion happens, so that just a few hundred degrees lower the recrystallisation process essentially stops, leaving the crystals at a particular size.

Stuu: Wherever these meteorites came from, it wasn't from the earth.

Why not?

Apart from meteorites, and some native iron deposits in Greenland that resulted from reduction of metal oxides due to carbon-laden magma or lava, iron-nickel alloys are not found in the crust, but in the inner and outer core below the mantle. This is because materials were sorted by density during the accretion that formed the earth.

Presumably you think they cooled over millions of years inside another planet and then they escaped that planet's gravity.

Planetesimals, not planets, and they are released through collisions with other planetesimals. Although, there is no particular problem with escaping gravity: rocks from the surface of Mars have made it to earth after being ejected in a collision with an asteroid or comet.

Stuart