Hello friends. I am wondering if there are any here, in ECT, who believe in evolution.
My intentions are to discuss evolutionary theory and its concepts, and how they relate to creation/God.
My reason for choosing this forum is to eliminate atheist intrusion. I do enjoy such discussions with atheists, however, a high percentage of the time, the discussion digresses into contradictions of logic on their part, and dismissing of evidence put forth (especially when presented by a theist). Even theists will dismiss evidence that disproves their points. So in order to eliminate as many outliers as possible, I chose to hold this discussion in ECT.
As a biologist, I acknowledge evidence put forth by science. However, I reject evolutionary theory, as it goes against natural evidence. There are evolutionary concepts that are fact, such as adaptation. But these are proven concepts, not theoretical ideals.
As the discussion progresses,
I will disclose my views; for now, I just want to spark the discussion, not overload it with evidence and proofs. Again, this is a discussion of the natural and how it points to supernatural, with the knowledge that the Bible is an inerrant source of truth.
Evolution, in a sense is possible, but only within very narrow restrictions.
Genesis 1 makes that clear, everything after its own kind.
Frogs will never evolve into cats.
Frogs may evolve, but they will always remain frogs.
Horses and donkeys can breed and produce mules, but mules cannot reproduce. If two animals that similar can reproduce but their offspring cannot reproduce, what does that tell us about evolving from one kind of animal to another, it won't happen because God set it up that way.
The Japanese enjoy breeding goldfish into some very different looking fish, but even after all that very special and selective breeding, they are still goldfish.
Hello friends. I am wondering if there are any here, in ECT, who believe in evolution.
My intentions are to discuss evolutionary theory and its concepts, and how they relate to creation/God.
My reason for choosing this forum is to eliminate atheist intrusion. I do enjoy such discussions with atheists, however, a high percentage of the time, the discussion digresses into contradictions of logic on their part, and dismissing of evidence put forth (especially when presented by a theist). Even theists will dismiss evidence that disproves their points. So in order to eliminate as many outliers as possible, I chose to hold this discussion in ECT.
As a biologist, I acknowledge evidence put forth by science. However, I reject evolutionary theory, as it goes against natural evidence. There are evolutionary concepts that are fact, such as adaptation. But these are proven concepts, not theoretical ideals.
As the discussion progresses,
I will disclose my views; for now, I just want to spark the discussion, not overload it with evidence and proofs. Again, this is a discussion of the natural and how it points to supernatural, with the knowledge that the Bible is an inerrant source of truth.
I understand the need to have Biblical informed people for your discussion.
Let me ask, first, if you have read Lewis' "Religion and Science" in GOD IN THE DOCK (ie 'on trial'). R&S is Lewis at his best on capital N Nature which means uniformitarianism, which is what Schaeffer meant by a 'closed system of natural causes and effects.'
I have much more interest in geology than in biology, but appreciate both. Reasons for my interest are: 1, working backward chronologically, we face evidence of the deluge first, rather than the original creation. 2, I totally enjoy the area of geo-mythology which is the inquiry as to why certain legends are located where they are. It almost always ties in immediately to the global deluge because the earliest of these stories are usually explanations to a people-group how ocean shells ended up out in the middle of continents. I don't know if biology has such a connection.
I assume you have seen IS GENESIS HISTORY? which begins geologically but has biological sections.
I was unaware until about 2 years ago that evolutionary language was introduced as quickly as possible into US law discussions. Almost all legal expressions that previously had reference to the sacred or divine were changed to, and phrased in, evolutionary constructs in the 1880s and on. I think we have to see from this that it is a religion and that the stronghold that has people bound into it, and unable to use their minds about many ordinary questions, is that way because it was always meant to replace Biblical faith. "I intend to free geology from Genesis" said Lyell.
For the same reason, almost all reference to Werner's geology which explained all sedimentary layers as effects of the flood, have been called Neptunism, which not only misses the connection to Genesis, but also makes his work treated as a sort of mental aberration too backward to be considered today.
I hope you will read and review my book DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS. It is a crime story set just north of Seattle during a river flood, but tells all the latest in catastrophic research up to 2016 along the way. It is at Amazon.
For me, the first essential discussion among Christians must be over the term "evolution."
I'm not a scientist, have had a good amount of it in college and always good grades. My brother is a biologist, my daughter going to school for this, so some of this is from my discussions with them, some of it from theology classes as well and assailable.
Evolution Dictionary.com
1. any process of formation or growth; development:
the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
2. a product of such development; something evolved :
The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.
3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
Evolution FreeDictionary.com
1. a. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
b. A result of this process; a development: Judo is an evolution of an earlier martial art.
2. Biology
a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, often resulting in the development of new species. The mechanisms of evolution include natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, mutation, migration, and genetic drift.
Spoiler
b. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
3. Astronomy Change in the structure, chemical composition, or dynamical properties of a celestial object or system such as a planetary system, star, or galaxy. Evolution often changes the observable or measurable characteristics of the object or system.
4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements: naval evolutions in preparation for battle.
5. Mathematics The extraction of a root of a quantity.
"Evolution" carries with it the suggestion of 1) randomized chance undirected and 2) independent
Colossians 1:17 says clearly, that all things hold together and are sustained by the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:3
John 15:5, imho, is literal: "Without Me, you can't do any one thing."
So, out of the gates, for me, "Evolution" is out, and rather 'Grace' and 'Sustenance' are to be understood. Without, nothing exists that exists John 1:3. I take that also to mean, not even mutation.
Biologically, I recognize DNA pre-programming, so I recognize some 'freeing' and 'carrying out function in some kind of sense, independently. I think this too, leads philosophically/theologically to "Free-Will" is also an idea of Evolution (self-directing).
For me, Psalm 104 Genesis 1 and 2 etc. play off the idea of a 'set' order as well as a dynamic need for the hand of God to remain with His creation and man, else he and it would disappear. Read here for Psalm 104, for instance
Spoiler
Psa 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.
Psa 104:7 At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
Psa 104:8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9 You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.
Psa 104:10 You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills;
Psa 104:11 they give drink to every beast of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
Psa 104:12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; they sing among the branches.
Psa 104:13 From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work.
Psa 104:14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth
Psa 104:15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.
Psa 104:16 The trees of the LORD are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
Psa 104:17 In them the birds build their nests; the stork has her home in the fir trees.
Psa 104:18 The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers.
Psa 104:19 He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting.
Psa 104:20 You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about.
Psa 104:21 The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God.
Psa 104:22 When the sun rises, they steal away and lie down in their dens.
Psa 104:23 Man goes out to his work and to his labor until the evening.
Psa 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.
Psa 104:25 Here is the sea, great and wide, which teems with creatures innumerable, living things both small and great.
Psa 104:26 There go the ships, and Leviathan, which you formed to play in it.
Psa 104:27 These all look to you, to give them their food in due season.
Psa 104:28 When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are filled with good things.
Psa 104:29 When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
Psa 104:31 May the glory of the LORD endure forever; may the LORD rejoice in his works,
Psa 104:32 who looks on the earth and it trembles, who touches the mountains and they smoke!
Psa 104:33 I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have being.
Psa 104:34 May my meditation be pleasing to him, for I rejoice in the LORD.
Psa 104:35 Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more! Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD!
Instead of "Evolution" we Christians sometimes use "Intelligent Design" (ID) or "Creation" (and I'd augment those with "Sustaining Power in Grace").
For me, Evolution doesn't work, because of the models that are presumed as independent. I cannot see a system as complex as we have, 'evolving.' I can see God doing it a number of ways, including the idea of simultaneous expansion (development, chicken from egg sort of idea). I also can see that such could have been made as matured already as well. Scientists have accused me that making a tree grow at an accelerated rate, would then be a lie based on what we see, but I don't ever remember God saying "count the rings on the tree to figure out how 'all' of them are." We assume, and so I find such an aversion rather than substantial objection. We bring our ideas/models with us to threads such as these. Mine is assailable, but it seems to me, the creation models I've seen, are the clearer ones to what we actually see in nature, and from scripture. In Him -Lon
I hope you will read and review my book DELUGE OF SUSPICIONS. It is a crime story set just north of Seattle during a river flood, but tells all the latest in catastrophic research up to 2016 along the way. It is at Amazon.
Could you PM me the details of the book. I was unsuccessful in producing it via Google search. Could be a glitch, or even, not to sound like a conspiracy nut, an act on Google's part (such realities do occur; some of them to various publications).
Could you PM me the details of the book. I was unsuccessful in producing it via Google search. Could be a glitch, or even, not to sound like a conspiracy nut, an act on Google's part (such realities do occur; some of them to various publications).
For me, the first essential discussion among Christians must be over the term "evolution."
I'm not a scientist, have had a good amount of it in college and always good grades. My brother is a biologist, my daughter going to school for this, so some of this is from my discussions with them, some of it from theology classes as well and assailable.
Evolution Dictionary.com
"Evolution" carries with it the suggestion of 1) randomized chance undirected and 2) independent
Colossians 1:17 says clearly, that all things hold together and are sustained by the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:3
John 15:5, imho, is literal: "Without Me, you can't do any one thing."
So, out of the gates, for me, "Evolution" is out, and rather 'Grace' and 'Sustenance' are to be understood. Without, nothing exists that exists John 1:3. I take that also to mean, not even mutation.
Biologically, I recognize DNA pre-programming, so I recognize some 'freeing' and 'carrying out function in some kind of sense, independently. I think this too, leads philosophically/theologically to "Free-Will" is also an idea of Evolution (self-directing).
For me, Psalm 104 Genesis 1 and 2 etc. play off the idea of a 'set' order as well as a dynamic need for the hand of God to remain with His creation and man, else he and it would disappear. Read here for Psalm 104, for instance
Spoiler
Psa 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.
Psa 104:7 At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
Psa 104:8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9 You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.
Psa 104:10 You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills;
Psa 104:11 they give drink to every beast of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
Psa 104:12 Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; they sing among the branches.
Psa 104:13 From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work.
Psa 104:14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth
Psa 104:15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.
Psa 104:16 The trees of the LORD are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
Psa 104:17 In them the birds build their nests; the stork has her home in the fir trees.
Psa 104:18 The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers.
Psa 104:19 He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting.
Psa 104:20 You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about.
Psa 104:21 The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God.
Psa 104:22 When the sun rises, they steal away and lie down in their dens.
Psa 104:23 Man goes out to his work and to his labor until the evening.
Psa 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.
Psa 104:25 Here is the sea, great and wide, which teems with creatures innumerable, living things both small and great.
Psa 104:26 There go the ships, and Leviathan, which you formed to play in it.
Psa 104:27 These all look to you, to give them their food in due season.
Psa 104:28 When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are filled with good things.
Psa 104:29 When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
Psa 104:31 May the glory of the LORD endure forever; may the LORD rejoice in his works,
Psa 104:32 who looks on the earth and it trembles, who touches the mountains and they smoke!
Psa 104:33 I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have being.
Psa 104:34 May my meditation be pleasing to him, for I rejoice in the LORD.
Psa 104:35 Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more! Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD!
Instead of "Evolution" we Christians sometimes use "Intelligent Design" (ID) or "Creation" (and I'd augment those with "Sustaining Power in Grace").
For me, Evolution doesn't work, because of the models that are presumed as independent. I cannot see a system as complex as we have, 'evolving.' I can see God doing it a number of ways, including the idea of simultaneous expansion (development, chicken from egg sort of idea). I also can see that such could have been made as matured already as well. Scientists have accused me that making a tree grow at an accelerated rate, would then be a lie based on what we see, but I don't ever remember God saying "count the rings on the tree to figure out how 'all' of them are." We assume, and so I find such an aversion rather than substantial objection. We bring our ideas/models with us to threads such as these. Mine is assailable, but it seems to me, the creation models I've seen, are the clearer ones to what we actually see in nature, and from scripture. In Him -Lon
I appreciate your intellectual integrity, as evidence by immediately providing the various definitions of evolution. Thank you.
For this discussion, I wish to focus on Evolutionary theory as a means of cellular progress.
For myself, now with a MS degree, concepts such as adaptation, germ theory, etc all point to Intelligent Design (ID). As our friend Oatmeal pointed out, no animal has ever been sufficiently demonstrated as evolving into another animal. Evolutionary theorists put forth that apes evolved into humans, yet there is a sufficient lack of evidence to support this.
As you stated, "nothing exists out of nothing." So I agree with you completely.
I will post a discussion that occurred between myself and Jonahdog (an atheist). To preserve his privacy, I will not disclose our private messages, however he did claim to have a MS in Bio and a law degree (which I question being true given his arguments).
In the discussion, I listed several questions, which were rhetorical. The few pieces of evidence I provided were small, and compiled over several years pursuing Biology degrees. I believe this is relevant to this thread, and it is always nice as a Christian to have scientific evidence and logic on our side when debating with anti-theists.
Probably even keep the name of the guy out of it. It isn't quite fair to him to discuss him in thread without him being able to participate.
Whoever he is, it probably doesn't help discussion that he is a lawyer either. At any rate, delete his name and say rather "Joe TOL agnostic/atheist" perhaps. If it were me, I might even shoot him a PM to ask him about using some of the things he said to help move discussion along here (courtesy is all).
I don't have any reason to believe in evolution. There's nothing in it for me. Plus, believing in evolution doesn't in my mind cohere with there being right and wrong and good and evil. There is not good and evil if evolution is true, so Adolf Hitler could not have been a bad guy---"bad guy" is a myth, a fiction; they don't real.
But besides that, I still don't have any reason to believe in evolution.
Hello friends. I am wondering if there are any here, in ECT, who believe in evolution.
My intentions are to discuss evolutionary theory and its concepts, and how they relate to creation/God.
My reason for choosing this forum is to eliminate atheist intrusion. I do enjoy such discussions with atheists, however, a high percentage of the time, the discussion digresses into contradictions of logic on their part, and dismissing of evidence put forth (especially when presented by a theist). Even theists will dismiss evidence that disproves their points. So in order to eliminate as many outliers as possible, I chose to hold this discussion in ECT.
As a biologist, I acknowledge evidence put forth by science. However, I reject evolutionary theory, as it goes against natural evidence. There are evolutionary concepts that are fact, such as adaptation. But these are proven concepts, not theoretical ideals.
As the discussion progresses,
I will disclose my views; for now, I just want to spark the discussion, not overload it with evidence and proofs. Again, this is a discussion of the natural and how it points to supernatural, with the knowledge that the Bible is an inerrant source of truth.
I believe that the world is millions of years old, but I don't believe that man had evolved from monkeys. God created man, so man comes from man, and monkeys come from monkeys!
Because our time is not God's time and our days are not God's days
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day
And our day starts in the morning, God's day starts in the evening as God will never have a day end in darkness only in light.
And a day does not always mean a natural timeframe, but we can also have a spiritual day, for example the day of the Lord isn't a 24 hours period. And when we enter into God's rest, which is the Sabbath, we don't enter in to a 24 hour period, but we cease from the works of the flesh and live by the will of God and live in his goodness and love which then brings us peace in the heart.
Hebrews 4
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard*it.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this placeagain, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God*did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
We are to labour to enter into God's rest, and to labour is to turn from sin, and cease from our works to live by the will of God and we will then produce the fruit of the Spirit and show the works of God by the power of the Spirit in our daily life. And all is done through his holy son Christ Jesus.
The Bible is written by those who are born of, and inspired by God. And they write in the Spirit, and it not only has natural meanings but spiritual meanings also.
OK, I just thought I'd ask. 'Cause it says "six days." Those promulgating an old earth, old universe; they're not making their case to me. Their evidence and argument is unconvincing. Plus, what's in it for me to believe it? Nothing. I stand to gain nothing in believing it, so I don't. :idunno:
OK, I just thought I'd ask. 'Cause it says "six days." Those promulgating an old earth, old universe; they're not making their case to me. Their evidence and argument is unconvincing. Plus, what's in it for me to believe it? Nothing. I stand to gain nothing in believing it, so I don't. :idunno:
I believe that the earth is older, but I don't believe in evolution, as in we don't come from a monkey.
But I don't worry about how everything was created, we should leave all that in God's hands, as he's the one who's created everything and his mind is greater than ours. Those born of God have a purpose and that's to follow Jesus and bare witness to the truth and bring the love and word of God and life of Christ to others. And show them the new and living way in God, through Christ.
That's more important than knowing how the the times of creation or how God did it. Our time is now, our day is now, and when we hear his voice we are not to harden our hearts, but let his word penetrate deep into our hearts, believe, have faith and then live it out and walk in the light of Christ, in the day of Lord.
But I don't worry about how everything was created, we should leave all that in God's hands, as he's the one who's created everything and his mind is greater than ours. Those born of God have a purpose and that's to follow Jesus and bare witness to the truth and bring the love and word of God and life of Christ to others. And show them the new and living way in God, through Christ.
That's more important than knowing how the the times of creation or how God did it. Our time is now, our day is now, and when we hear his voice we are not to harden our hearts, but let his word penetrate deep into our hearts, believe, have faith and then live it out and walk in the light of Christ, in the day of Lord.
I basically believe all that too, but why believe the earth and universe is old? What case have they made that convinced you that "six days" was fictional/mythological?
I believe that the earth is older, but I don't believe in evolution, as in we don't come from a monkey.
But I don't worry about how everything was created, we should leave all that in God's hands, as he's the one who's created everything and his mind is greater than ours. Those born of God have a purpose and that's to follow Jesus and bare witness to the truth and bring the love and word of God and life of Christ to others. And show them the new and living way in God, through Christ.
That's more important than knowing how the the times of creation or how God did it. Our time is now, our day is now, and when we hear his voice we are not to harden our hearts, but let his word penetrate deep into our hearts, believe, have faith and then live it out and walk in the light of Christ, in the day of Lord.
You said that.
I basically believe all that too, but why believe the earth and universe is old? What case have they made that convinced you that "six days" was fictional/mythological?
Where have I said that the six days are fictional or mythological? I've never said that, I said that our time isn't God's time and a day isn't always a 24 hour period.
