Elephants, evolution, and cancer

[Interplanner]

The creation (as in "endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights") has helped billions of people. It is fatalistic-ideology countries where people are treated like crap.

I know of no hospitals named after Darwin or Huxley. I know of thousands named for John, Paul, Theresa, other saints, other features or doctrines of the Christian faith.

 

[Lon]

You didn't read the paper, did you? There's a reason why the discovery of the genes was presented at an evolutionary biology conference; it was made while working under an evolutionary framework.

Yep, and my comment was that 'evolutionary' understanding wasn't pertinent imho. It was more coincidental with actual/factual findings and not really relevant to what they were trying to discover: Why elephants don't get cancer. Imho, 'evolution' was but a peripheral that might have helped steer 'them' but not essential by any means, to the progress of getting to answers. Yep, I agree they placed their answers within evolutionary context. Again, I see that as a peripheral tag-along completely unecessary to answer the question on the table and do the comparisons.

I notice how you didn't answer the question.

Good! So you are not stupid. NOW, what was the 'reason' I gave for not doing so? :think:

I 'can' answer and easily, but you will just start another thread on your next question, settling for second-hand answers. It is like asking me what the encyclopedia says when you have Wikipedia and Britannica at your fingertips while nay-saying either source then asking me to tell you what it says, knowing you don't read either of them yourself.

Such isn't an honest question. Is it?

And "scripture's answer" for this is......?

Well, God is talking to His own people when He says this, but pay attention. Please. 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 then my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place.

(prayer, asking a question, in 'learning' humility)

Creationist organizations have all sorts of money to build museums, theme parks, go on speaking tours, go on TV, etc. Yet when it comes to doing actual productive science, suddenly their coffers are empty?

Again, 'many' scientists are Christians. You are saying that anybody with a science degree but NOT working for a company with a specific science agenda related to health or government profits, isn't fit to make commentary??? :think:

Except those Christians would be working under an evolutionary framework, which is the point. If creationism is the more accurate framework, why hasn't it contributed anything to science in the last century?

In correct, they working 'despite' that frame-work. You are correct to 'follow' the money, but then turn a blind-eye to the exponentially larger money (a million vs BILLIONS consideration). You are out of balance in your thinking and loyalties.

 

[Interplanner]

Jose,
the contribution that you speak of may be happening right now with CPT, catastrophic plate tectonics. Problem: it points to the accuracy of Genesis and other writings similar. Of course, the biggest 'concern' of secular elites would be the accuracy of Genesis with its 'horribly' antiquated 2 genders and a Creator who will judge the earth one day, just as he did in the deluge.

 

[Greg Jennings]

Or why don't we have cells like a frog that can be frozen without shattering?

Only one frog species has this ability, and that's because they live where they can get frozen every year. Humans have no need for such a genetic ability as we don't get frozen over too often. Do we?

Or why don't we have 8 legs like and octopus?

Care to explain how eight arms would be evolutionarily advantageous for humans? Do you know how much weight six extra arms would add, and how hard they would be to control in a vertebrate animal? Octopi have no skeleton and live underwater where weight is reduced, allowing for such an extreme adaptation as eight arms to be advantageous and reasonable.

"Doesn't God love me?"

"Yes, Jesus loves me. The Bible tells me so" as I remember the Sunday school song going

 

[Greg Jennings]

Because they are not all Elephants.

Well your previous argument was that humans don't have this ability because of our ingestion of unnatural substances. I pointed out that all other wild animals don't do this either, just like elephants. So you're not making a ton of sense here

 

[Greg Jennings]

Me? I'd kinda like to be able to dunk a basketball but ... my God doesn't love me enough to let me therefore ... there is no God.

Unless you're under 5'6", God loves you plenty to be able to dunk a basketball. Everything required is already in you. Go do some squat presses, calf raises, and just generally practice jumping. You can get there, and the reason is because you have the required genetics to do so.

 

[Jonahdog]

Jose,
the contribution that you speak of may be happening right now with CPT, catastrophic plate tectonics. Problem: it points to the accuracy of Genesis and other writings similar. Of course, the biggest 'concern' of secular elites would be the accuracy of Genesis with its 'horribly' antiquated 2 genders and a Creator who will judge the earth one day, just as he did in the deluge.

A citation to the scientific literature re: catastrophic plate tectonics, please.

 

[fzappa13]

Well your previous argument was that humans don't have this ability because of our ingestion of unnatural substances. I pointed out that all other wild animals don't do this either, just like elephants. So you're not making a ton of sense here

I think the ability (or lack thereof) to make sense of what I say has a great deal to do with what my namesake once referred to as your "conceptual continuity". My suggestion was stated and renumerated and neither offering looked like the one you ascribed to me. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[fzappa13]

Unless you're under 5'6", God loves you plenty to be able to dunk a basketball. Everything required is already in you. Go do some squat presses, calf raises, and just generally practice jumping. You can get there, and the reason is because you have the required genetics to do so.

I'm 6'1" but, as we all know, white men can't jump ... and I'm staring 60 right straight in the eye. Ain't happening ... and that's definately genetic. :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

A citation to the scientific literature re: catastrophic plate tectonics, please.

It's a thread here. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113540


As far as I can tell Silvestru would have the highest profile advocating CPT. But there are several in there. Ager might be next highest profile.

 

[Jose Fly]

Yep, and my comment was that 'evolutionary' understanding wasn't pertinent imho.

Yet the scientists who actually made this discovery, and are putting it to good use think otherwise. Gee, whose opinion on this science do you think is worth more....the guy who hasn't read it, or the scientists who did it?

I 'can' answer and easily, but you will just start another thread on your next question, settling for second-hand answers. It is like asking me what the encyclopedia says when you have Wikipedia and Britannica at your fingertips while nay-saying either source then asking me to tell you what it says, knowing you don't read either of them yourself.

Such isn't an honest question. Is it?

Another dodge.

Well, God is talking to His own people when He says this, but pay attention. Please. 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 then my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place.

(prayer, asking a question, in 'learning' humility)

So are elephants more humble than humans, and that's why God gave them extra anti-cancer genes?

Again, 'many' scientists are Christians. You are saying that anybody with a science degree but NOT working for a company with a specific science agenda related to health or government profits, isn't fit to make commentary???

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. I'm just noting that creationist organizations have lots of money for museums, theme parks, and speaking tours, but none to do any actual productive science. That fact speaks for itself.

In correct, they working 'despite' that frame-work.

Yet only one framework...evolution...is producing actual results. The creationism framework hasn't contributed a single thing in over a century. That's just reality.

You are correct to 'follow' the money, but then turn a blind-eye to the exponentially larger money (a million vs BILLIONS consideration). You are out of balance in your thinking and loyalties.

You're not making sense.

 

[Jose Fly]

Jose,
the contribution that you speak of may be happening right now with CPT, catastrophic plate tectonics. Problem: it points to the accuracy of Genesis and other writings similar. Of course, the biggest 'concern' of secular elites would be the accuracy of Genesis with its 'horribly' antiquated 2 genders and a Creator who will judge the earth one day, just as he did in the deluge.

Given creationism's history of futility over the past 100+ years, you'll understand if I take a "I'll believe it when I see it" approach. :chuckle:

 

[Jonahdog]

It's a thread here. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113540


As far as I can tell Silvestru would have the highest profile advocating CPT. But there are several in there. Ager might be next highest profile.

a thread to TOL is not a reference to the scientific literature. Your Silvestru reference seems to be to Youtube and I have no clue from your cut and paste references where I might find Ager's work.

If your post is an indication of where you get your science---well then.

 

[Interplanner]

It's a three page bibliography with notes... I'll paste it here. Not all of them are totally on topic; as you may know there are some subjects in which the mechanics of creation and the deluge overlap. Usually the secular scientists indicate their dissent from uniformitarianism and/or just 'accidental' celestial encounters; ie, the changes they speak of could not be accidental.

 

[Interplanner]

DELUGE OF INFORMATION
Annotated Bibliography


Ager, D. THE NATURE OF THE STRATIGRAPHICAL PROCESS. A peer scientist disputes Lyell's basis for uniformitarianism by evidence about rapid deposition and the Epeiric sea over north America.

Ager, D. NEW CATASTROPHISM.

Baugh, C. PRE-FLOOD ARTIFACT DEVASTATES UNIFORMITARIANISM. Youtube. A hammer made of sophisticated metal from England in a 'strata' where it does not 'belong.'

Baugh, C. THE WORLD AND MANKIND BEFORE THE FLOOD. Youtube. “Bizz-artifacts” of the ancient world re longevity, giantism.

Boudreaux. NEW THEORY FOR THE PRE-FLOOD CANOPY re sugilite, a trace found all over the earth's surface. Youtube.

Bretz, J H. 1920s. Geologic catastrophism in connection with Lake Missoula.

Brown, W. (various titles on the deluge and anomalies left around the world by it, but usually written apart from tectonic theory). Former DOD logistician.

CENTRALIA THEORY. A newer catastrophic view that the entire central 80% of Australia is a rapid deposit sedimentary zone as part of a global event.

Clemens, J. Research on granitic magmatism. Geologist Association of London.

Cooper, B. AFTER THE FLOOD.

Dona, K. ARTIFACTS FROM PRE-FLOOD WORLD & FALLEN ANGELS. Pres. By Habsburg Haus curator. Youtube. “Bizz-artefacts” of the ancient world.

FINDING NOAH. Oct.8.2015 limited screening.

Haynes. MAMMOTHS... Research on the thousands of mammoths in permafrost.

Hovind, K. FLOOD OF NOAH. Youtube. Hundreds of flood legends around the world. Hovind tends to wander off topic.

Hovind, K. THOUSANDS OF DRAGON LEGENDS AROUND THE WORLD. Youtube. Hovind tends to wander off topic.

Howorth, 1887. Early research on mammoths unable to explain the huge numbers found in permafrost.

James-Griffiths, P. TRACING GENESIS THROUGH ANCIENT CULTURE. Youtube. Extensive and well-illustrated comparative legend and literature.

Giem, P. IS PLUTO YOUNG? Youtube.

Guthrie. FROZEN FAUNA... Research on the plant life around the time and place of the huge numbers of frozen mammoths.

Job 9. 'God moves and overturns mountains.'

Johnson, C. THE PRE-FLOOD WORLD: CREATION AND CANOPY. Youtube.

LIVING WATERS. See nrbtv (Direct 378). This is a rich photoessay against several aspects of Darwinism.

Lyell. Mid-1800s scientist who developed the idea of uniformitarianism 'to free geology from Moses.'

THE MAN WHO FOUND TIME. Re Hutton (mid-1700s) and the first attempts to state that there are vast amounts of time manifesting in the universe.

Mial, A. (research on failures of uniformitariansm) Springer International Publishing.

National Geographic Society. (100 mammoths at Hot Springs, South Dakota).

Nurre, P. EGYPTIAN CHRONOLOGY AND THE BIBLE. Nwcreation.net. Comparing new archeology with Biblical record.

Oard, M. THE LAKE MISSOULA FLOOD. Nwcreation.net Seattle creation conference 2015.

Oard, M. WHAT HAPPENED TO WOOLLY MAMMOTHS? Nwcreation.net Seattle creation conference 2015.

Psalm 104. The creation psalm with a few verses on the deluge, if not on Gen 1:2.

Psalm 136. The earth is set on top of water.

Siccar Point, Scotland. This site is contested as a clinching site by both uniformitarians and Biblical creation/deluge believers.

Silvestru, E. GEOLOGY AND DEEP TIME. Youtube. Vertical tectonics, rapid sedimentary deposits by a highly-trained ex-uniformitarian.

Snelling, A. WORLDWIDE FLOOD; GEOLOGIC EVIDENCE. Youtube.

Steno, N. Mid-1600s 'father of geology' and his Biblical basis.

Tolmachoff. 1929. Studies on woolly mammoths as anomalies.

Vereshagin. MAMMOTH CEMETERIES. Research on cause of death of thousands of mammoths in permafrost.

Walker, T. (THE GENESIS DELUGE). Nwcreation.net Seattle creation conference 2015.

Walker, T. MEGA-CATASTROPHE. Nwcreation.net Seattle creation conference 2015.

Waltke, B. CREATION AND CHAOS. Study of ancient near east legend to show how Gen 1's mission is to declare that the LORD is the redemptive-creator.

Ward. CALL OF THE DISTANT MOUNTAINS. Research on the anomalies of woolly mammoths.

 

[Jonahdog]

It's a three page bibliography with notes... I'll paste it here. Not all of them are totally on topic; as you may know there are some subjects in which the mechanics of creation and the deluge overlap. Usually the secular scientists indicate their dissent from uniformitarianism and/or just 'accidental' celestial encounters; ie, the changes they speak of could not be accidental.

But no citation to the scientific literature for catastrophic plate tectonics. Can you supply just 1 or 2 specifically?

I really do, however, like your reliance on youtube. Very scientific. Chick tracts next?

 

[MrDeets]

But no citation to the scientific literature for catastrophic plate tectonics. Can you supply just 1 or 2 specifically?

I really do, however, like your reliance on youtube. Very scientific. Chick tracts next?

Hey now- go easy on the youtube citations. If youtube can't be used to cite scientific fact, then where does that leave the antivaxxers pro virus-ers? :rotfl:

 

[Interplanner]

But no citation to the scientific literature for catastrophic plate tectonics. Can you supply just 1 or 2 specifically?

I really do, however, like your reliance on youtube. Very scientific. Chick tracts next?

You're so wrong. You've got to put in some time, buddy. The thing about Boudreaux and Silvestru is their quotes from peer scientists. Astounding. LIVING WATERS spent its final segment on Sternberg's mathematics about mutations; separate topic, but I'm just providing what you want. Wallace's GOD'S CRIME SCENE is also remarkable for secular quotes that rattle uniformitarianism or other 'closed system' beliefs.

I agree that Hovind comes across crass, but individual items he references there are very detailed and very explosive.

Just take the first title. What do you think Ager means?

As for your snide remark about youtube, you sound antiquated. Given the fact that both of us are here on the i.net, it appears that there is nothing wrong with using a new media, OK? Your problem, or fantasy, is that you thought everything out there was going to sound exactly the same as uniformitarianism has sounded since Lyell, and it has indeed been forced on the West as the 'only' truth. You're not really having a problem with youtube. These scientists say the same things in their books and journals. This time they happen to be in front of cameras that feed into the digital-sphere. So what?

 

[6days]

Given creationism's history of futility over the past 100+ years, you'll understand if I take a "I'll believe it when I see it" approach. :chuckle:

I'm sure you must mean the frustration of evolutionists???
* They tried to sell school kids on the belief in ape men like Piltdown.
* They tried to convince people that our bodies were filled with 98%"Junk DNA".
* It was evolutionists who believed our bodies had many useless biological remnants such as appendix.
* It was evolutionists who fell for Haeckels fraudlent drawings.
* It was evolutionists who tried to convince everyone that Neandertals were dimwitted, inarticulate, stopped over meat eating, hairy beasts.
* Evolutionists are the ones who fall prey to the hype about transitionals with fossils that are just lemurs.
* It is evolutionists who believed coealacanths had gone extinct 60+ million years ago.
* Evolutionists scramble for explanations about soft dinosaur tissue.
ETC
ETC
and more.....

Science helps confirm the truth of God's Word.

 

[patrick jane]

Unless you're under 5'6", God loves you plenty to be able to dunk a basketball. Everything required is already in you. Go do some squat presses, calf raises, and just generally practice jumping. You can get there, and the reason is because you have the required genetics to do so.

You can't dunk whitey !!!!