Easter vs Objective Thinking

[WeberHome]

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A portion of the scripture below is deliberately revised. Watch for it.

● John 20:29 . . Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are the gullible who have not seen and yet have believed."

The Bible, as a document, cannot be accepted into evidence to prove that Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life. No, that would be like handing over the deed to the Trump Tower to a strange man merely on the basis of himself saying he bought it.

Carl Sagan once remarked "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In other words, the scientific mind accepts neither hearsay, nor sophistry, nor circular reasoning; rather, insists upon empirical evidence.

The Bible claims, in so many words, that Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life. Okay; but unless we're shown something solid to corroborate the Bible's claim; then reason, logic, and common sense demands that the Bible's claim be thrown out of court as spurious nonsense; viz: a myth.

Faith is believin' what you know ain't so.
(Mark Twain)

NOTE: It's ironic that Jehovah's Witnesses and normal Christians bicker over the physical details of Jesus Christ's resurrection when neither can produce sufficient empirical evidence to substantiate their claims.
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[WeberHome]

Re: Easter vs Objective Thinking

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FAQ: What about all those witnesses in the Bible who actually saw Jesus after his resurrection? Don't they matter?

A: Do you have their names and addresses? They will have to be called forward to be officially sworn in and vetted before their testimony can be accepted as evidence in a court of law. Let's face it: to objective minds, the Bible's witnesses are merely characters in a religious story book.

FAQ: What about the empty tomb?

A: Did you have one in mind? It will of course have to be examined by forensic experts before admitting it into evidence.

Many of the Christians that I encounter online and offline are cowards. They simply cannot allow themselves to accept that they believe in supernatural things and events that cannot be proven true. They strive to appear intelligent, wise, and informed; while living in fear of being found out that in reality they're just as superstitious as a Hindu, a Muslim, and/or a Buddhist.

Easter is not a time to argue, it's a time to turn the other cheek. So instead of fighting with their critics, Christians should try to sympathize with them instead because to the honest, non biased, non prejudiced, non passionate, open mind; the Bible is merely another religious story book whose credibility is just as questionable as the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, and/or the Koran: thus useless as legitimate evidence that a Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life in real life. The Bible can only be used to claim the event took place in real life; and leave to every individual's own conscience as to whether it actually did.

● John 20:29 . . Jesus said to Thomas: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The Greek word for "blessed" in that passage means, among other things; fortunate. Yes, people should consider themselves fortunate to believe just from the Bible alone that a Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life in real life because its claims are the sum total of evidence that they're likely to ever see for themselves before they pass on.
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[Aimiel]

The evidence is clear. It isn't hearsay since the original authors were Apostles. Their evidence was given scrutiny by Dr. Simon Greenleaf, considered the world's foremost authority on evidence in jurisprudence and found not only to be credible but actually the best evidence in antiquity for the history of an individual's life. His birth, ministry, death and resurrection are established by corroborating evidence throughout the Gospels. Your estimation of Scripture being hearsay is nonsense. Jesus was born to a virgin, ministered and performed miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead. Other religions are phony. Christianity is based upon eyewitness testimony which the Gospels have declared down through the ages. You should read The Holy Scriptures as if you had an open mind, instead of rejecting Truth out-of-hand.

"All that Christianity asks of men on this subject, is, that they would be consistent with themselves; that they would treat its evidences as they treat the evidence of other things; and that they would try and judge its actors and witnesses, as they deal with their fellow men, when testifying to human affairs and actions, in human tribunals. Let the witnesses be compared with themselves, with each other, and with the surrounding facts and circumstances; and let their testimony be sifted, as if it were given in a court of justice, on the side of the adverse party, the witnesses being subjected to a rigorous cross-examination. The result, it is confidently believed, will be an undoubting conviction of their integrity, ability and truth ... Either the men of Galilee were men of superlative wisdom, and extensive knowledge and experience, and of deeper skill in the arts of deception, than any and all others, before or after them, or they have truly stated the astonishing things which they saw and heard" -- Dr. Simon Greenleaf in his book: Testimony of the Evangelists.

 

[bibleverse2]

[Re: Christians]

They simply cannot allow themselves to accept that they believe in supernatural things and events that cannot be proven true.

Note that faith is by definition the evidence of things not seen:

Hebrews 11:1 ¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

And for us to be saved from hell, it is absolutely necessary for us to have faith in Jesus Christ's resurrection, no less than to have faith in His crucifixion for our sins. For:

Romans 10:9 . . . if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 ...I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present [Paul's time], but some are fallen asleep [had died].
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me [Paul] also, as of one born out of due time.​

[Re: Christians]

They strive to appear intelligent, wise, and informed; while living in fear of being found out that in reality they're just as superstitious as a Hindu, a Muslim, and/or a Buddhist.

No, for Christian faith is a miraculous gift from God Himself:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God . . .​

And saving, Christian faith is given only to elect individuals:

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

That is, the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), and even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot comprehend the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can comprehend it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Nonelect people can never believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

[Re: Christians]

They strive to appear intelligent, wise, and informed . . .

No, they strive to preach the Christian faith:

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 1:17 ¶For Christ sent me... to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.​

 

[WeberHome]

Re:

Re:

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Quoting the Bible's claims to validate other of its claims is sometimes called circular reasoning. It's akin to acquitting an accused man on the basis of him claiming he didn't do it.
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[TrumpTrainCA]

.....Carl Sagan once remarked "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."......

Sagan was an atheist imbecile. Who cares what he said.

 

[Aimiel]

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Quoting the Bible's claims to validate other of its claims is sometimes called circular reasoning. It's akin to acquitting an accused man on the basis of him claiming he didn't do it.
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The varied and corroborating accounts of the eyewitnesses of Jesus' Life are just that: true evidence of the honest and concise record given by the men who saw, touched and lived with Christ while He was ministering in the earth. The proof is un-deniable. It's obvious and cannot be reproached.

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Easter vs Objective Thinking

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Every so often I get asked how I know that my religion is right. My answer is: I don't know if it's right. Then of course they want to know why I believe in my religion if I don't know whether it's right.

That's a fair inquiry. Most of the people who ask me those kinds of questions are genuine; they're not trying to trip me up and make a fool out of me. They are honestly curious. So I tell them, in so many words, that though I don't know if my religion is right, my instincts tell me it is; in other words: I cannot shake the conviction that it's right.

"I have never seen what to me seemed an atom of truth that there is a future life, and yet, I am strongly inclined to expect one." (Mark Twain)

Twain logically concluded that there is no afterlife, but his instincts did not agree with his thinking; and I dare not criticize him for that because even my own religion requires that I believe in my heart rather then only in my head.

"For with the heart one believes, and is declared innocent" (Rom 10:10)

Why do people believe what they believe? Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Bahá'í, Hare Krishna, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Judaism, Voodoo, Wiccan, Jain, Druze, Native American, etc, etc, etc. The answer? Because it grips their heart-- the core of their being --which is very different than persuading someone with logic and reasoning.

People brought into a religion by logic and reasoning can just as easily be taken away by logic and reasoning. But someone whose heart is gripped by their religion, is not so easily removed.

So, when people believe the Gospel's claim that a Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life in spite of all the world's reason and logic to the contrary; they can take comfort in knowing that their religion is not supposed to make sense.

"Unto the Greeks, foolishness." (1Cor 1:23)

"My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom . . that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men." (1Cor 2:4-5)
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[oatmeal]

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A portion of the scripture below is deliberately revised. Watch for it.

● John 20:29 . . Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are the gullible who have not seen and yet have believed."

The Bible, as a document, cannot be accepted into evidence to prove that Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life. No, that would be like handing over the deed to the Trump Tower to a strange man merely on the basis of himself saying he bought it.

Carl Sagan once remarked "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In other words, the scientific mind accepts neither hearsay, nor sophistry, nor circular reasoning; rather, insists upon empirical evidence.

The Bible claims, in so many words, that Jesus Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life. Okay; but unless we're shown something solid to corroborate the Bible's claim; then reason, logic, and common sense demands that the Bible's claim be thrown out of court as spurious nonsense; viz: a myth.

Faith is believin' what you know ain't so.
(Mark Twain)

NOTE: It's ironic that Jehovah's Witnesses and normal Christians bicker over the physical details of Jesus Christ's resurrection when neither can produce sufficient empirical evidence to substantiate their claims.
_

There are reasons for me to believe the testimony of the Word of God the Bible.

Like a cookbook if I try out a recipe following the directions accurately and get the promised results then I have reason to believe that one recipe. If I try that same recipe repeatedly and repeatedly get the promised results then I can believe in that that one recipe is reliable.

If I do the same with other recipes from the same cook book and again receive the promised results I would conclude that in general the book is good and reliable and accurate in the realm of what topics it covers.

Likewise with the Word of God the Bible.

I have tried it and repeatedly received the results promised and therefore conclude that every subject that is speaks of is accurately and truthfully presented.

That is that the Word of God is what it says it is.

It is the Word of God it is truth.

Therefore it is true that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the evening of the weekly Sabbath 3 days and 3 nights ie 72 hours after he was buried.

And that God created the heaven and the earth ... right on through to Rev 22:21.

 

[Idolater]

. . . God raised Jesus Christ from the dead . . . .

Yup. :up: John 10:17-18 KJV (cf. John 2:19 KJV)

 

[oatmeal]

Yup. :up: John 10:17-18 KJV (cf. John 2:19 KJV)

Yes, Jesus Christ received that commandment but who does God say raised him from the dead, seeing that scripture is God's word?

There are over 20 places that make it clear that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus Christ believed that God would do that for him thus he could declare that that power was given to him, yet it was not his power but God's power that did the raising.

If Jesus actually raised himself from the dead, how do you explain I Thessalonians 4:16

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Does it say that either God or Jesus will raise them? No, it says that the dead in Christ shall rise

Either God's word is true or it isn't

Since there are many more verses that declare that God raised Jesus from the dead than the two you point out, it is more logical to fit the two into the over 20 then ignore the over 20 and exalt the two.

Note that receiving salvation is not about believing that Jesus raised himself from the dead, but that God raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[WeberHome]

Carl Sagan

Carl Sagan

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Sagan was an atheist imbecile. Who cares what he said.

Back in 1980 there was a thirteen-part series on television called "COSMOS: A Personal Voyage" hosted by Carl Sagan.

I didn't watch the series at that time; but caught up on it with YouTube. It was my first experience with Mr. Sagan. I'd heard of him, but never actually listened to him speak.

Well, it turns out; I really like the man. Sagan was very personable; sort of like Mr. Rogers: he was sincere, charming, soft-spoken, and educational; coupled with a talent for explaining difficult concepts on a layman's level. Sagan was a perfect front man for the scientific community.

But he was an atheist. Sagan stood against beliefs that the cosmos-- all its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the result of intelligent design.

Well; if there really is an intelligent designer, then of course Sagan's life's work was for naught: just a hobby-- an interesting way to pass the time until his time was up. My heart goes out to Sagan as I can only imagine the terrible, crushing disappointment that poor man must be feeling knowing now that his ultimate destination is the sum of all fears: the thing that all men everywhere dread the most,
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[6days]

Carl Sagan once remarked "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Agree! But strange Sagan believed many things with no evidence at all. And, strange people post that quote who are unwilling to recognize their own blind beliefs.

 

[Right Divider]

Agree! But strange Sagan believed many things with no evidence at all. And, strange people post that quote who are unwilling to recognize their own blind beliefs.

:thumb:

The first line in his book Cosmos was something like, "The cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be".

So much for a guy that requires evidence.

 

[Idolater]

Yes, Jesus Christ received that commandment but who does God say raised him from the dead, seeing that scripture is God's word?

There are over 20 places that make it clear that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus Christ believed that God would do that for him thus he could declare that that power was given to him, yet it was not his power but God's power that did the raising.

If Jesus actually raised himself from the dead, how do you explain I Thessalonians 4:16

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Does it say that either God or Jesus will raise them? No, it says that the dead in Christ shall rise

Either God's word is true or it isn't

Since there are many more verses that declare that God raised Jesus from the dead than the two you point out, it is more logical to fit the two into the over 20 then ignore the over 20 and exalt the two.

Note that receiving salvation is not about believing that Jesus raised himself from the dead, but that God raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

All I did was write, "Yup," referred to two small passages of Scripture (John 10:17-18 KJV, and John 2:19 KJV), and gave you the :up: smilie.

:idunno: it feels like you're shadow boxing.

 

[Zeke]

The varied and corroborating accounts of the eyewitnesses of Jesus' Life are just that: true evidence of the honest and concise record given by the men who saw, touched and lived with Christ while He was ministering in the earth. The proof is un-deniable. It's obvious and cannot be reproached.

Doesn't come by observation Luke 17:20, because it's presentation in the dead letters is the spiritual gifts wrappings, Galatians 4:24. Extroverting its inward fulfillment (1 Corinthians 3:16) is worldly traditional literalism needing proof for its flesh Christ, a wrapping more valued than the gift it concealed 2 Corinthians 5:16, Matthew 11:11.

Psalms 40:6, John 5:22, God's son awake in man ( Luke 17:21, 2 Corinthians 13:5, didn't have much good to say about worldly wise outward futuristic doctrines Matthew 23:13.

So entrance into God's kingdom was, is, always at hand with spiritual discernment of who I AM, 1 Corinthians 15:44-45.