Does God know the future?

[logos_x]

I believe that God only has everlasting duration and therefore is the only source of duration.
1 Tim 6:16 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.

I believe in God's providential control.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I believe in God's foreknowledge.
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I believe in God's Omnicience.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

I believe God's will shall prevail.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Isa 46:10 Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.'

I believe He will do all things he promised in the end without overiding men's will.
Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.


Yet I do NOT believe God meticulously controls every minute detail of everything that happens directly. I understand what the OV is saying...and i think the premise is sound doctrine.

 

[Clete]

logos x,

You can't have it both ways. If God knows the future it is not open.

 

[logos_x]

logos x,

You can't have it both ways. If God knows the future it is not open.

I disagree.
You are suggesting that God causes all things simply by knowing all things.
That is illogical.

I know you don't intend to suggest that scriptures are wrong that say God knows the end from the beginning, etc.
The implications are that knowledge is not necessarily causative. God can be all knowing without causing what He knows in every instance.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I know you don't intend to suggest that scriptures are wrong that say God knows the end from the beginning, etc.

LOL nice try.

God declares the end from the beginning. Just as a referee declares the end from the beginning of a football game but certainly doesn't predestine every play and movement of every player.

 

[logos_x]

LOL nice try.

God declares the end from the beginning. Just as a referee declares the end from the beginning of a football game but certainly doesn't predestine every play and movement of every player.

Yet I do NOT believe God meticulously controls every minute detail of everything that happens directly. I understand what the OV is saying...and I think the premise is sound doctrine.

I'm not arguing for a Calvinistic position of predestination.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

He predistinated all things in Christ. Everything in Christ. That He will gather all things in Chirst at the fullness of times.

I think that's wonderful news.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He predistinated all things in Christ. Everything in Christ. That He will gather all things in Chirst at the fullness of times.

I think that's wonderful news.

I don't.

If the wicked are in heaven . . . heaven will be hell. :down:

 

[logos_x]

I don't.

If the wicked are in heaven . . . heaven will be hell. :down:

The wicked won't be.
Only the redeemed.

 

[logos_x]

Can't be wicked in Christ...

 

[Clete]

I disagree.
You are suggesting that God causes all things simply by knowing all things.
That is illogical.

If this is what I were suggesting you would be right, but it's not and so your not.

I know you don't intend to suggest that scriptures are wrong that say God knows the end from the beginning, etc.

The Scriptures do not teach this.

The implications are that knowledge is not necessarily causative. God can be all knowing without causing what He knows in every instance.

No kidding. I haven't suggested otherwise. This is my thinking...

• To have a free will means that I have the ability to do or to do otherwise.
• If God knows the future I am not able to do anything but what He knows I will do; I cannot do otherwise.
• Therefore, if God knows the future I do not have a free will.

• If my will is not free, I am not responsible for my actions.
• I am responsible for my actions.
• Therefore, I do have a free will.

• I do have a free will.
• My free will and God's exhaustive foreknowledge are mutually exclusive (see previous syllogism).
• Therefore, God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.

Resting in HIm,
Clete

 

[logos_x]

* To have a free will means that I have the ability to do or to do otherwise.
* If God knows the future I am not able to do anything but what He knows I will do; I cannot do otherwise.
* Therefore, if God knows the future I do not have a free will.

It is this conclusion I find problematic. Specifically the second one...which means you proceed from a false premise to the third.

While it is true that if God knows the future, and you cannot do anything but what He knows, it doen't follow that what he knows about you causes you to act a certain way...He simply knows what you will choose. He doesn't cause you to choose one way or the other.
Therefore, God knowing the future does not affect how you would choose, therefore you can choose as you normally would, and you have free will.

We can have an open future..and God could still know how it turns out..in the end.
He can know this without causing, directly, your individual choices. Yet still accomplish His will universally, finally, in the future.

 

[Clete]

* To have a free will means that I have the ability to do or to do otherwise.
* If God knows the future I am not able to do anything but what He knows I will do; I cannot do otherwise.
* Therefore, if God knows the future I do not have a free will.

It is this conclusion I find problematic. Specifically the second one...which means you proceed from a false premise to the third.

While it is true that if God knows the future, and you cannot do anything but what He knows, it doen't follow that what he knows about you causes you to act a certain way...He simply knows what you will choose. He doesn't cause you to choose one way or the other.
Therefore, God knowing the future does not affect how you would choose, therefore you can choose as you normally would, and you have free will.

We can have an open future..and God could still know how it turns out..in the end.
He can know this without causing, directly, your individual choices. Yet still accomplish His will universally, finally, in the future.

I am not saying that His knowledge would cause me to do anything. I am not saying that at all.
We've done this before but you are new to the discussion to so I don't mind doing it again. Let me ask you a question which will demonstrate my point.

Let's say that God knows (by whatever means) that in half an hour someone will ask me how old I am and that I will lie and say that I'll be 26 in two weeks. With this knowledge as a given, do I have the ability to tell the truth instead?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[logos_x]

I am not saying that His knowledge would cause me to do anything. I am not saying that at all.
We've done this before but you are new to the discussion to so I don't mind doing it again. Let me ask you a question which will demonstrate my point.

Let's say that God knows (by whatever means) that in half an hour someone will ask me how old I am and that I will lie and say that I'll be 26 in two weeks. With this knowledge as a given, do I have the ability to tell the truth instead?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yes...unless God (or circumstances) causes you to lie and say you'll be 26 in 2 weeks. But even then, your foreknowledge could cause you to tell the truth instead, because that introduces another cause into the equation.
God giving you that information in advance could be construed as an agent to change the outcome, or merely a demonstration of His foreknowledge.
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed...Jesus did not cause the outcome, Peter did, even though He told him in advance.

 

[logos_x]

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just saying that God's foreknowledge doesn't interfere with our wills directly. We choose the actions we take, not God. At the same time God can know what will cause us to react certain ways, and influence our choices indirectly, or even place us in circumstances where we have to do things...especially if we have to go to a hospital, or are placed under arrest...some things can go quite against our wills.

 

[Clete]

Yes...unless God (or circumstances) causes you to lie and say you'll be 26 in 2 weeks. But even then, your foreknowledge could cause you to tell the truth instead, because that introduces another cause into the equation.

Then God did not know that I would lie in the first place, only that I might lie.

God giving you that information in advance could be construed as an agent to change the outcome, or merely a demonstration of His foreknowledge.
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed...Jesus did not cause the outcome, Peter did, even though He told him in advance.

Peter could have repented and not denied Christ. Christ prophecy was a prediction of the future not a prewritten history of it. But that's an issue for another debate. For now, lets just assume God DID NOT tell me anything about my impending lie. Could I have done otherwise? Better yet, since you brought up Peter, could Peter have done otherwise than he did?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Let's say that God knows (by whatever means) that in half an hour someone will ask me how old I am and that I will lie and say that I'll be 26 in two weeks. With this knowledge as a given, do I have the ability to tell the truth instead?

Yes...

:bang:

 

[kmoney]

God desired that He create in the fashion He created.

When God delegated some of His power to us in the form of freewill it was His choice - He wanted it this way.

God is not bound by some imaginary perfect foreknowledge that some have burdened Him with. God is so powerful that He can delegate power if He so chooses.

Foreknowledge isn't a burden.

 

[kmoney]

I am not saying that His knowledge would cause me to do anything. I am not saying that at all.
We've done this before but you are new to the discussion to so I don't mind doing it again. Let me ask you a question which will demonstrate my point.

Let's say that God knows (by whatever means) that in half an hour someone will ask me how old I am and that I will lie and say that I'll be 26 in two weeks. With this knowledge as a given, do I have the ability to tell the truth instead?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Let's say that God knows (by whatever means) that in half an hour someone will ask me how old I am and that I will lie and say that I'll be 26 in two weeks. With this knowledge as a given, do I have the ability to tell the truth instead?

No.

 

[Clete]

No.

Okay! Progress! :jump:

Now, do you agree that having a free will means that one has the ability to do or to do otherwise?

 

[kmoney]

Knight,

Furthermore, if God had perfect foreknowledge why would He be expecting "good grapes" from Israel if He already knew "wild grapes" were going to be the outcome?

I don't know.....but if God has knowledge of what will happen that doesn't mean He can't have feelings about that knowledge.

Kevin

 

[kmoney]

Okay! Progress! :jump:

Now, do you agree that having a free will means that one has the ability to do or to do otherwise?

HA, ..... I've always answered "No" to questions like that...

sorry to disappoint you but no progress has been made. haha.