Does God know the future?

[Clete]

I'll admit I was partially incorrect with the Jewish faith statement as it was only after Greek influences that they started thinking about predestination.

On the other hand you are flatly wrong with your missinterpretation of Scripture, but I guess one can interpret what he wants to into scripture which leads us to the question of who has the authority to interpret scripture (the Catholic Church who wrote the new Testament of course).

I don't care who interprets it as long as they use sound reason while doing so. I am not interested in opinion or conjecture; I am interesting in the verifiable truth. Truth, by definition is logical. The Bible is true and teaches truth and thus both it and it's teachings must be logical. Therefore any teaching that can be shown to be illogical must also be unbiblical. The person who came up with a particular theology, how old the theology is, or how many people believe it has nothing to do with whether it is correct or not.

Free will in terms of Christianity is speaking of the choice between moral good and evil not whether one gets into a car and gets into an accident as your past example suggested.

The car isn't the point, it's the choice to get into that car that is the point. If you don't like that example then I'll give you another.
If God knows that in one hour a person will strangle and decapitate a seven year old boy after having raped him, does the murdering rapist have the choice to cut the boy's leg off just to watch him bleed to death instead?

Now, is that enough of a moral issue for you?

All that God creates is good and God wills all men to be saved. God simply has foreknowledge who will choose him and who will not. He is not making us turn away from him through that foreknowledge.

This is self-contradictory and therefore it cannot be true, thus you will in no way be able to establish this Biblically. I invite you to try if you like.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Who created God?

Kevin

No one. Why do you ask?

 

[Delmar]

Now, is that enough of a moral issue for you?


Clete

WOW

 

[kmoney]

No one. Why do you ask?

Clete,

I asked for this reason.....I think that it is safe to say that we ALL believe that God was not created by anyone nor anything. God has existed forever and will exist forever. I think we have reached a point in this debate where it is useless to make logical arguments. If you believe God exists without creation and has existed inifinitely in the past, is it that hard to believe that God could know the future?

Now having said that....It does seem that the discussion has slightly shifted towards scriptural arguments. I believe this is where the debate should be based.

I believe that philosophizer has provided the best logical argument against God knowing the future...good thoughts by the way philosophizer ....
but I still do not believe that it precludes the possibility of God knowing the future.

I am not at all saying that I do not think logical arguments should be used, but when the debate has seemingly reached a standstill I think it is time to use other avenues, i.e. scripture.

Now before you holla back that all scriptural evidence points to an open future I want to say that I'm not making any statement about whether scriptures points one way or another. I'm simply saying that I believe logic has reached a deadend in this discussion.

Kevin

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Now before you holla back that all scriptural evidence points to an open future I want to say that I'm not making any statement about whether scriptures points one way or another. I'm simply saying that I believe logic has reached a deadend in this discussion.

Kevin

Actually I disagree and I think you will as well when we make the following distinction . . .

The crux of this thread have evolved into one central theme which is can God know or see the future perfectly and exhaustively without that knowledge removing man's freewill?

Can God's perfect foreknowledge be set without setting the future?

This issue is more related to logic than anything else.

If we were simply discussing does God know the future? Then I would agree with you that logic would reach a dead end.

 

[kmoney]

Actually I disagree and I think you will as well when we make the following distinction . . .

The crux of this thread have evolved into one central theme which is can God know or see the future perfectly and exhaustively without that knowledge removing man's freewill?

Can God's perfect foreknowledge be set without setting the future?

This issue is more related to logic than anything else.

If we were simply discussing does God know the future? Then I would agree with you that logic would reach a dead end.

Knight,

The first question you asked will get nowhere , but the question.....

Can God's perfect foreknowledge be set without setting the future?

,
the question philosophizer proposed, poses new problems for people, such as me, who were arguing for God knowing the future. I'll be honest and say I'm not sure how to approach that and, like I said, his is by far the best logical argument for open theology. It will be something I'll have to think about a little....

Kevin

 

[kmoney]

Clete, Knight, and all who are arguing for open theology.....a question regarding a couple verses in Ephesians.....

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, I am not getting into the individual vs. corporate election. This post is not to argue whether "predestined" means individuals or the body of believers in Jesus Christ. What I am questioning is this....

Eph 1:4 says we were chosen "before the foundation of the world"
Eph 1:5 goes on to say that he "predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus.."

First I'll ask this....
Is it safe to assume that the predestination in v5 occured before the foundation of the word?

If yes....
That predestination was through Jesus Christ and it was predestined before the foundation of the world. Therefore God has predestined that we would be "adopted" through Jesus Christ since the foundation of the world.

Now, for those who believe God doesn't know the future I know that you do believe God has an overall plan for the earth, correct?
Was the original plan salvation through Jesus?

At the foundation of the world God may have known he was going to create Adam, but did he know the fall of man would occur? Did he know that he was going to create Eve? And if he did know that did he know she would be tempted by Satan? And if he knew Satan would tempt Adam/Eve did God know Eve would fall and then lead Adam into sin?

Another question....When exactly is the foundation of the world? When does it end?
I would say that it ends after God rested on the 7th day; his creation was complete. The foundation was set.
These verses say that we were predestined to be adopted into Jesus Christ since before the foundation of the earth. Now, did God's plan always include Jesus Christ? Or was that added after the fall of man? If God didn't know Adam & Eve would fall why would he have ever needed to plan for Jesus Christ to come and die for our salvation?

Kevin

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz it EXPLICITELY says he knows who will be saved and who will not. He is not picking people, he had foreknowledge.

Read my post #226. I specifically separated predestination of grace and glory.

Predestination to grace/glory may be Catholic, but it is not explicit Bible. The verses do not explicitly say God foreknows individual salvation. The plural shows it is corporate. Those who believe become part of the elect. He predestined that all who come in repentant faith would be added to the elect. There is no indicatation He foreknew individuals before they were born to receive or reject Him.

 

[godrulz]

Clete, your telling me that Rom. 8:28-30 does not speak of predestination to glory (entering heaven) as opposed to predestination to grace (becoming a Christian)?

The verse talks about justification, sanctification, and glorification. Now I see what you are saying (you just say it differently).

 

[godrulz]

I'll admit I was partially incorrect with the Jewish faith statement as it was only after Greek influences that they started thinking about predestination.

On the other hand you are flatly wrong with your missinterpretation of Scripture, but I guess one can interpret what he wants to into scripture which leads us to the question of who has the authority to interpret scripture (the Catholic Church who wrote the new Testament of course).

Free will in terms of Christianity is speaking of the chioice between moral good and evil not whether one gets into a car and gets into an accident as your past example suggested.

All that God creates is good and God wills all men to be saved. God simply has foreknowledge who will choose him and who will not. He is not making us turn away from him through that foreknowledge.

Since when did the Catholic Church write the NT and have authority to interpret it? This is begging the question/circular reasoning (assuming what you are trying to prove).

Paul, John, Peter, and others wrote the NT under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The same Spirit illuminates our understanding of the inspired revelation. We are all responsible for truth. The extra/contrabiblical ideas added through the centuries by papal decree or tradition show that it is not what you claim.

 

[Clete]

WOW

:chuckle:

I did pretty much nail that coffin shut, didn't I?

 

[Delmar]

:chuckle:

I did pretty much nail that coffin shut, didn't I?

I had fun!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Another question....When exactly is the foundation of the world? When does it end?
I would say that it ends after God rested on the 7th day; his creation was complete. The foundation was set.
These verses say that we were predestined to be adopted into Jesus Christ since before the foundation of the earth. Now, did God's plan always include Jesus Christ? Or was that added after the fall of man? If God didn't know Adam & Eve would fall why would he have ever needed to plan for Jesus Christ to come and die for our salvation?

Kevin

God knew that giving man freewill could very possibly lead to man's rejection of Him.

God planned (predestined) a way to reconcile man to Himself through Jesus.

The contingency plan was predestined, yet not the individuals who might eventually avail themselves to this plan.

 

[Clete]

Clete, Knight, and all who are arguing for open theology.....a question regarding a couple verses in Ephesians.....

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, I am not getting into the individual vs. corporate election. This post is not to argue whether "predestined" means individuals or the body of believers in Jesus Christ. What I am questioning is this....

Eph 1:4 says we were chosen "before the foundation of the world"
Eph 1:5 goes on to say that he "predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus.."

First I'll ask this....
Is it safe to assume that the predestination in v5 occurred before the foundation of the word?

Yes.

If yes....
That predestination was through Jesus Christ and it was predestined before the foundation of the world. Therefore God has predestined that we would be "adopted" through Jesus Christ since the foundation of the world.

Now, for those who believe God doesn't know the future I know that you do believe God has an overall plan for the earth, correct?
Was the original plan salvation through Jesus?

If I understand the question, yes. God planned to save anyone who would respond to Him in faith through His Son if such salvation were to become necessary.

At the foundation of the world God may have known he was going to create Adam, but did he know the fall of man would occur?

Expected it perhaps but that's not the same as knowing and so as asked, I would answer this question, no He did not.

Did he know that he was going to create Eve? And if he did know that did he know she would be tempted by Satan? And if he knew Satan would tempt Adam/Eve did God know Eve would fall and then lead Adam into sin?

I doubt very much that Eve was an afterthought although the way the text reads, that is at least a possibility.
As for Satan's tempting Adam and Eve, I believe that Lucifer wasn't Satan until after this event and so in my mind this is like asking, "Did God know that Lucifer was going to rebel and tempt God's new creature in an effort to over through God?"

No, I don't believe He knew this. I do not believe that He was caught off guard or anything like that, He may well have suspected some such thing might happen but again, expectation or suspicion is not knowledge.

Another question....When exactly is the foundation of the world? When does it end?
I would say that it ends after God rested on the 7th day; his creation was complete. The foundation was set.

It could mean this and probably does in most contexts but it could also be a figure of speech meaning "a long, long time ago" or "at some point before creation" or some variation of that.

These verses say that we were predestined to be adopted into Jesus Christ since before the foundation of the earth. Now, did God's plan always include Jesus Christ? Or was that added after the fall of man? If God didn't know Adam & Eve would fall why would he have ever needed to plan for Jesus Christ to come and die for our salvation?

Because He knew of the possibility of our rejecting Him and put a plan in place so as not to lose the entire creation to sin. In other words, He thought things through thoroughly and weighed the consequences of His actions before leaping off into the deep end with creating beings with eternal souls.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[kmoney]

God knew that giving man freewill could very possibly lead to man's rejection of Him.

God planned (predestined) a way to reconcile man to Himself through Jesus.

The contingency plan was predestined, yet not the individuals who might eventually avail themselves to this plan.

Is there a verse that speaks of Jesus being a "backup" plan? A plan that will only be implemented if Adam & Eve sinned? Because the verses I posted don't seem to.

yet not the individuals who might eventually avail themselves to this plan

I agree and just want to clarify that I was not arguing this to be true.

Kevin

 

[kmoney]

Clete,

It could mean this and probably does in most contexts but it could also be a figure of speech meaning "a long, long time ago" or "at some point before creation" or some variation of that.

Maybe, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of that.

Because He knew of the possibility of our rejecting Him and put a plan in place so as not to lose the entire creation to sin. In other words, He thought things through thoroughly and weighed the consequences of His actions before leaping off into the deep end with creating beings with eternal souls.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but....It seems like you're saying that God had to have a backup plan(Jesus) in place before he created the world, and if God didn't do than all the world would be doomed to eternal punishment because God could not have implemented a new plan after the fall. You say "...weighed the consequences of His actions before leaping off into the deep....". Is that what you meant to imply?

I see what you are saying, but it doesn't seem that God just put Jesus in there as a potential backup plan in case plan A went wrong. Maybe this is my bias clouding my judgement on this verse, but to me these verses seem to say that God knew Jesus would have to be used to save the world, not simply that man would probably sin so God better be prepared.

Kevin

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Is there a verse that speaks of Jesus being a "backup" plan? A plan that will only be implemented if Adam & Eve sinned? Because the verses I posted don't seem to.

If man had never sinned what would he need to be redeemed for?

 

[logos_x]

If man had never sinned what would he need to be redeemed for?

I thought the point was that God knew that man would sin.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I thought the point was that God knew that man would sin.

What point?

 

[Clete]

Kevin,

My response is the same as Knight's. If man had never sinned what would he need to be redeemed for?

And putting it in terms of a "back up plan" is I think a mischaracterization. It wasn't a back up plan it was just a plan. An example of something similar would be the way you make plans yourself. If you want to achieve a certain goal then you look at as many of the potential obstacles to that goal and make plans as to overcome them. If you're smart, you do this in advance so that you prepared for whatever comes. We are imperfect and have a very limited ability to predict what might happen and yet we are still able to make such plans very effectively. God is far less limited and so can make much farther reaching and detailed plans than we could possibly conceive of ourselves. So I am not saying that Jesus was an after thought or a back up plan or anything like that.

Have you ever used the phrase, "I knew that you were going to do that!" when someone does something that you fully expected them to do? If so (which I'm sure is the case), did you really know they would do it or did you simply have a strong suspicion based on your knowledge of the person and how they would probably react in that particular situation? It's the latter, right? Of course it is but yet you are very comfortable with using the term "know" in this context.
I say all of that to say this. I believe that God knew that Adam would sin in the same sense you know what you friends will do in certain situations. And I believe that God planned accordingly and formulated the plan of salvation. It's not a case where God was surprised by Adam's sin. In fact, I believe that had Adam not sinned, that's what would have astonished God.

Resting in Him,
Clete