Does foreknowledge mean predestination?

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Does foreknowledge mean predestination?

Yes.

The denial of that is frankly just an ideological sin- how can you be the Creator, knowing all things before your creation, and not already figure how you will dictate and conduct your will?

The fact is, foreknowledge vs predestination is a false dichotomy. And the sooner you realize that, the better, because then you might interpret scripture correctly :wave2:
 

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Freedom and Foreknowledge

Freedom and Foreknowledge

I know what I think but what about you?

What is free will?
By God's foreordination (including foreordination unto salvation, predestination) we mean that God foreordains all that is to come to pass according to His eternal plan. God's ultimate plan is that His will shall be glorified. But note that I have just defined foreordination using the word "foreordains". That is not quite helpful is it? So let's be more precise and define foreordination without using the word itself. By foreordination, I mean that God predisposes all that is to come to pass and the conditions in such a manner that all shall come to pass according to God's eternal plan. These events may come to pass via the free actions of moral agents (both saved and lost) or via God's causative acts.

By God's foreknowledge, I mean God knows always and at all times everything which is to come to pass. Why does God know this? God foreknows what is to come to pass because God has prearranged the happening of what is to come to pass. Thus we say that God foreknows because He has foreordained. The ground of God's foreknowledge is in His ordaining. This last statement makes sense when we observe that when we say, “I know what I am going to do,” it is evident that we have already determined to do so, and that our knowledge does not precede our determination, but follows the determining and is based upon the determining. To admit foreknowledge carries foreordination with it.

The Scriptures speak of God’s perfect knowledge: Job 37:16, that He looks into man’s hearts, 1 Samuel 2:3; 1 Samuel 16:7; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Chronicles 28:17; Ps. 139:1-4; Jeremiah 17:10, that God observes our ways, Deuteronomy 2:7; Job 23:10, Job 24:23, Job 31:4; Psalms 1:6; Psalms 94:9-11; Psalms 104:24; Psalms 119:168, Psalms 139:1-4; Psalms 139:15-16, that God knows the place of their habitation, Psalms 33:13, and the days of our lives, Psalms 37:18, Proverbs 8:22-23; Proverbs 8:27-30; Proverbs 15:3; Isaiah 40:13-14; Isaiah 40:27-28; Isaiah 41:22-23; Isaiah 41:25-27; Isaiah 42:8-9; Isaiah 43:11-12; Isaiah 44:7-8; Isaiah 44:24-28; Isaiah 45:18-21; Isaiah 46:10-11; Isaiah 48:3-7; Romans 11:33-36; Romans 16:27; Hebrews 4:13; 1 John 3:20.

Foreknowledge is beforehand only to God’s creatures; to God it is simply knowledge.

The above is important because I have witnessed how many confuse the terms and concepts behind them. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but foreknowledge is not itself foreordination. Misunderstandings of these terms have led the uninformed to claim that the related Reformed doctrines are fatalistic.

From these misunderstandings, we see incorrect statements such as the following:

Necessity of a hypothetical inference...
If God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter cannot refrain from sinning. (Incorrect)

The interpretation above wrongly interprets God's foreknowledge as impinging upon Peter's moral free agency. The proper understanding is:

The necessity of the consequent of the hypothetical...
Necessarily, if God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter does not refrain from sinning. (Correct)

In other words, the actions of moral free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, the actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place. That God foreknows does not mean God's foreknowledge is the cause of one's actions. Rather, the causes of one's actions rests within their own inclinations which arise from circumstances, experience, instincts, emotions, knowledge, etc. Nevertheless, these very inclinations are not beyond the sovereignty of God, who directs them antecedently via necessary, secondary, and contingent (to us) means. In other words, God has ordained the free will of the creature and brings about all that He has ordained without doing any violence to their will.

It is important to keep in mind the distinction between the decree of God and the execution of His decree. God decrees unconditionally all things which shall come to pass. But...the execution of the decree includes conditions that have been decreed by God by which things will come to pass. Accordingly, we should not simply speak of what God intends when we refer to the execution of His decree. We must include the conditions involved in the execution of the decree.

For example, there is a condition of human moral agency by which sin came into the world. Human nature fully and freely chooses its own course, so that the fall into sin by Adam was the genuine choice of Adam. We must never say the fall was simply as God intended it, therefore it happened. We are obliged to take into account the condition of free agency and full accountability by which this came to pass.

Herein lies common objections by some who will claim that since God has ordained all our free choices, we are not free (whatever that means). Yet these claims ignore that God has ordained the liberty of spontaneity of the creature as defined above. The complaints about this are more related to exactly how God pulls off His sovereignty and man's freedom. God has not revealed how He does so within Scripture, so speculating about the matter is usually where much divisiveness arises. I rest comfortably in the fact that God who can merely speak and create the entire universe is capable of being wholly sovereign and also holding man responsible.

What is free will?
Free will is simply the ability to chooses according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses. This is the liberty of spontaneity, versus the liberty of indifference (libertarian free will) claimed by others, that is the ability to choose other than what one would actually choose. The mind’s desire always precedes the mind’s choosing. This is precisely why libertarian free-will is impossible. Libertarian free will alleges a choice that is bereft of desire or want. People just choose because they can, rather than because they want. But if that were the case, either no choice would ever be made (no desire would win the contest) or the decision would be completely random, arbitrary and thus have no moral consequence. Even American jurisprudence assumes a motive in a given crime, barring rank insanity. Yet if libertarian free-will is true, determining motive is a fool's errand. Why? Because desire is not linked in any way to choice. (Of course, those with common sense know better.)

A more detailed account of the above and related matters can be found in this debate:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...vinist-s-Response-(Ask-Mr-Religion-vs-Enyart)

In particular, see this:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1535835&viewfull=1#post1535835

AMR
 
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Jerry Shugart's Demiurge God

Jerry Shugart's Demiurge God

The LORD created the universe and then set the things in motion and then sits back and observes His creation in action.
God is not a demiurge. Repent of this evil notion and its necessarily concordant view that there are actually meaningless events happening all around us. It also is a view that denies our Advocate who is always intervening on our behalf, not just popping in now and then to see what is going on.

Stop speaking now. Get your nose in Scripture and your knees on the ground seeking forgiveness for such an odious description of God.

AMR
 

S-word

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If there is not foreknowledge then there is no such thing as prophecy. Prophecy is God's foreknowledge written down. You are just a sign-post constantly pointing in the wrong direction.

Prophecy is not God's foreknowledge, it is the SON of MAN's knowledge (The Omega) of what has happened in his past, revealed to his chosen scribes to let us know what lies in our future.

God is the First and the Last
The Beginning and End
The Alpha and Omega
The Father and Son.
 

randomvim

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Everything God knows is fact, truth. God's truth can never be untruth, for then it wouldn't have ever been truth.

Neither you nor I can change God's truth; if God knows it, it's a done deal. It was a done deal whenever it existed in his knowledge; and, apparently His 'sovereign foreknowledge' never began, so your destiny always was in existence. So, if you believe God knows your destiny, you kissed your 'free will' good-bye. You're not 'free' to do anything; you're just a 'puppet on a string'.

You've heard all this before, so why the thread?

1. Why thread? because I wanted to dedicate a single thread to what was beeing seen speratically and with out great detail on other threads.

2. How or why would I not still have free will if God is not choosing what my actions are?

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randomvim

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God is not a demiurge. Repent of this evil notion and its necessarily concordant view that there are actually meaningless events happening all around us. It also is a view that denies our Advocate who is always intervening on our behalf, not just popping in now and then to see what is going on.

Stop speaking now. Get your nose in Scripture and your knees on the ground seeking forgiveness for such an odious description of God.

AMR
Are you saying God does not allow some things to pccur and in doing so observes what occurs?

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God Knows What Has, Is, or Will Happen

God Knows What Has, Is, or Will Happen

Are you saying God does not allow some things to pccur and in doing so observes what occurs?
By "allow" if you mean that God is wholly passive and unawares, waiting to see what will happen, the answer is no, this is not what is meant by "allow".

God is not allowing anything to happen as if He is a disinterested bystander, for all that happens God has ordained by His ordinary means: necessarily, freely, or contingently (to us). God knows (i.e., true knowledge) what has, is, or will, happen by virtue of the fact that He has ordained all that has, is, or will, happen, else God could not objectively know in the first place. Only the open theist claims that God does not know the future. It is a minority view, an unorthodox view.

AMR
 
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Jerry Shugart

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God is not a demiurge. Repent of this evil notion and its necessarily concordant view that there are actually meaningless events happening all around us. It also is a view that denies our Advocate who is always intervening on our behalf, not just popping in now and then to see what is going on.

Why didn't you quote what else I said?:

The LORD created the universe and then set the things in motion and then sits back and observes His creation in action. From time to time He enters into His creation to help it along but nothing which He does interferes with a man's free will. You might say that He is on the outside looking in.
 

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Jerry Shugart's Demiurge God

Jerry Shugart's Demiurge God

Why didn't you quote what else I said?:
The LORD created the universe and then set the things in motion and then sits back and observes His creation in action. From time to time He enters into His creation to help it along but nothing which He does interferes with a man's free will. You might say that He is on the outside looking in.
Jerry,

Nothing omitted serves to rehabilitate your odious view of God. It only makes it even more obvious how wrong you can be.

AMR
 

S-word

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By "allow" if you mean that God is wholly passive and unawares, waiting to see what will happen, the answer is no, this is not what is meant by "allow".

God is not allowing anything to happen as if He is a disinterested bystander, for all that happens God has ordained by His ordinary means: necessarily, freely, or contingently (to us). God knows (that is true knowledge) what has, is, or will, happen by virtue of the fact that He has ordained all that has, is, or will, happen, else God could not objectively know in the first place. Only the open theist claims that God does not know the future. It is a minority view, an unorthodox view.

AMR

Of course our God, The Son of Man, who, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is currently developing within the body of EVE/mankind, and who is the only one who can pay the penalty for the sins of the flesh in which he develops, knows exactly what lays in the future for mankind.

When Elijah appears on earth again, after he, Like Enoch/Jesus has been in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years) and after Elijah has chosen the required number of Jews and Gentiles to replace the fallen angels, it is then and only then (A time still in our future) that the only begotten prophet of God, will descend from his heights in time and enter the first temple, where he shall be treated with outrage and hung upon a tree, and when the veil of that temple is torn, the spirit of the Lord shall be poured forth as fire on the heads of the Gentile ancestors, of the required number chosen by Elijah.

And they will live their spiritual lives as did our Lord Enoch/Jesus, gathering to themselves all the spirits of their righteous descendants after they have paid the blood price for sin, and over whom the second death will have no power, and their righteous blood will be the ransom price for their chosen earthly host bodies, (As Jesus was the chosen host body for Enoch) who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and reign as Kings for a thousand years.
 

blackbirdking

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How or why would I not still have free will if God is not choosing what my actions are?

Because your actions are already in existence; they are truth in God's knowledge. You can't choose because you can't change God's knowledge; else he wouldn't have known.

Your actions are not chosen, they are simply lived out according to God's knowledge.
 

Brother Ducky

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The LORD created the universe and then set the things in motion and then sits back and observes His creation in action. From time to time He enters into His creation to help it along but nothing which He does interferes with a man's free will. You might say that He is on the outside looking in.

Would you argue that God's hardening Pharoah's heart is not interfering with Pharoah's free will
 

Hawkins

Active member
Does foreknowledge mean predestination?

No. Foreknowledge is God's ability to know things. He also has the ability not to know things which He doesn't want to know.

After the final judgment, the unsaved will be put to a permanent separation from God, that is, God will choose not to know them at all within an extra long period of time. While the freewill of those in hell still goes on without God's awareness.

If God doesn't have the ability to ignore by His will, then He's not omnipotent. Foreknowledge is all based on whether His will would like to know or to ignore.

Predestination on the other hand, refers to how human fate (mostly it's about those of His Elect) is designed. Each Christian will have a pre-designed fate for him to be shown openly (open witnessing) who he is within the short period of time when he's on earth.

In a nutshell, fate provides the options for us the choose with our freewill (in front of witnesses such as angels and chosen saints), so that we will be shown as the righteous within our short life time on earth and for us to be redeemed legitimately. God on the other hand, knows all the results (of His Elect) from the very beginning before the creation.
 

randomvim

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Because your actions are already in existence; they are truth in God's knowledge. You can't choose because you can't change God's knowledge; else he wouldn't have known.

Your actions are not chosen, they are simply lived out according to God's knowledge.
except you are assuming how God knows but this part has not really been explained. If God is infinite and pertains an infinite present... then it is possible for God to know what our future is without us having experienced that future.

All things we choose are our choice that is witnessed at once and known prior.

Reflecting on gambling. If a person dictates what an outcome will be, that outcome is still random.

If a person wins at rock paper siccors 30 times with one person by their own logical process. then even if person a knows what person b is going to do- person b is still choicing their own action. that is not predetermination.

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Epoisses

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Foreknowledge of God enabled him to choose those who would free willingly choose to believe

This is false. God foreknows those who believe in Christ not choose him and faith is the gift of God. It's the classic chicken or the egg scenario. God commands us to believe but then he is the one who enables us. It can't really be understood by mere mortals.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
I do not have any problem understanding. Why do you? Of course I am not mere and I have received the gift of eternal life.
 
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