Does Calvinism limit God?

[Z Man]

John Reformed,

Your truth falls upon deaf ears. If only God will show them the truth that you speak...

Their pride is in the way. They could never comprehend a doctrine that eliminates man from the center and replaces him with God. To them, it's absurd to think that God is all about glorifying Himself.

"How dare He! What about men? We deserve some respect God! Love us, or we will declare you mean!!", so says an OV'er/Armenian...

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by Z Man

John Reformed,

Your truth falls upon deaf ears. If only God will show them the truth that you speak...

Their pride is in the way. They could never comprehend a doctrine that eliminates man from the center and replaces him with God. To them, it's absurd to think that God is all about glorifying Himself.

"How dare He! What about men? We deserve some respect God! Love us, or we will declare you mean!!", so says an OV'er/Armenian...

Where are you geting this stuff cause it doesn't sound like anything that I have heard from any OV'er. Love is at the center of my theology. God offers love rather than demanding it.

 

[godrulz]

They misrepresent our views because they do not understand them. They emphasize one truth out of balance with other truths.

Salvation is initiated by God and He alone can save us. The work of the Spirit and Word brings us to the place where He invades our life without violating God-given freedom to live for self or to allow Him to make it possible for us to know and love Him. He does not want robots who were forced to love Him with no willingness or desire to turn from self to God. This would not be love, relationship, nor salvation.

Whether regeneration precedes repentance/faith or repentance/faith/regeneration occur simultaneously is academic. We cannot save ourselves, yet God does not 'rape' us against our wills. He can convict, persuade, enlighten, draw, etc., but there is no evidence that this is irresistible. He knocks at the door of our heart, not boots it down. If he can boot a believers heart-door down, there is no good reason why he would not do that to every child, teen, adult on earth so all will be saved and the devil will have no victory.

I suggest a wrong understanding of God's character, atonement, salvation, nature of man, etc. leads to inaccurate beliefs that are not defensible.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

They misrepresent our views because they do not understand them. They emphasize one truth out of balance with other truths.

Godrulz,

I must say that you attitude is refreshing but I think you give these guys a bit too much credit.

They don't misrepresent our view because they don't understand them, they aren't that brain dead. I've known bumps on logs that could understand Open Theism, it isn't complicated.
I don't really even consider it to be misrepresenting out views as much as it is simply changing the subject. Instead of dealing with the specific issue head on, they relate it to another topic and head off in another direction. It's obfuscation, pure and simple.
Unlike you, I am finding it difficult to tolerate. I think that it would be best if I just bowed out of this for now. I might be back in a couple of days or so, but for now I'm too frustrated to be of much good anyway.

God Bless

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by deardelmar

Love is at the center of my theology. God offers love rather than demanding it.

You don't get it. For God to demand us to love Him is love...

 

[Z Man]

Clete,

This:

I am finding it difficult to tolerate. I think that it would be best if I just bowed out of this for now. I might be back in a couple of days or so, but for now I'm too frustrated to be of much good anyway.

sounds a lot like this:

Instead of dealing with the specific issue head on, they relate it to another topic and head off in another direction. It's obfuscation, pure and simple.

:think:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

You don't get it. For God to demand us to love Him is love...

the nature of love is to give, not demand.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

You don't get it. For God to demand us to love Him is love...

God commands us to love and obey Him. You must be born again. Commands are imperatives. Inherent in this and all of human history from Lucifer to Adam to me is the equal possibility of obeying (blessing) or disobeying (curses= Deut.).

It is not optional. He has a right to rule our lives because He is the most awesome and valuable being in the universe. Inherent in the type of creation He chose to create is the possibility of rebellion. You can attribute this to the will of God. A warfare vs blueprint model is Scriptural as evidenced in the Gospels.

I am as frustrated as Clete. This is not really hard to grasp. It squares with Scripture and reality without mental gymnastics making God responsible for evil and the lostness of man.:help:

 

[Clete]

That's right Z Man you got me! My frustration at obfuscation is in fact obfuscation itself.

I'm totally busted.
You guys win. Calvin was right this whole time! I can't imagine how I didn't see it before.

Give me a break! Even if I were running from some issue, you would have to admit that it was God who predestined that I run anyway. Right?

 

[John Reformed]

Re: The elect of God (His People; His Sheep.)

Re: The elect of God (His People; His Sheep.)

Originally posted by John Reformed

This brings us to the question: For whom did Christ die?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

SHALL SAVE: Sozo. 1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a) one (from injury or peril)


1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

b) to save in the technical biblical sense

Anyone with even the faintest understanding of Scripture must admit that the world as a whole has not been saved. You will appeal to me by citing John 3 perhaps. But it says in context that only those who believe shall be saved; That those who do not believe have been condemned ALREADY!

No my friends...Jesus never failed to accomplish anything, for which He was sent to accomplish. HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE and HE HAS SAVED HIS PEOPLE.

So...Who are His people? The Jews? In a sense they are His people. He was born among the people of the tribe of Israel. But as Paul points out in Rom 9: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel"..."That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"

Not the "children of the flesh" but the "children of God" are counted as the the heirs to God's promise to Abraham. These are the people that Jesus came to save.

His sheep hear His voice. Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Your thoughts?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

not sure what you were posting that for John. i assume it's to try and show limited atonement but i think you are going to need more than that. nothing you posted there contradicted what i believe. i beleive that all who turn to God and believe in him will be saved through Jesus.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

That's right Z Man you got me! My frustration at obfuscation is in fact obfuscation itself.

I'm totally busted.
You guys win. Calvin was right this whole time! I can't imagine how I didn't see it before.

Give me a break! Even if I were running from some issue, you would have to admit that it was God who predestined that I run anyway. Right?

:chuckle:

good one clete :up:

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

not sure what you were posting that for John. i assume it's to try and show limited atonement but i think you are going to need more than that. nothing you posted there contradicted what i believe. i beleive that all who turn to God and believe in him will be saved through Jesus.

In Mat 1:21 have a declarative statement. It is unambiguous and as plain as the nose on one's face.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

What do you understand this verse to say?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by John Reformed

In Mat 1:21 have a declarative statement. It is unambiguous and as plain as the nose on one's face.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

What do you understand this verse to say?

the son of mary will be called Jesus and he is also the son of God and he will save his people from their sins. the real issue is "who are his people?"

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the son of mary will be called Jesus and he is also the son of God and he will save his people from their sins. the real issue is "who are his people?"

Good point GIT. Most people just skip over this part or read real fast through this. All throughout the Gospels he refers to "His people" or "His sheep". The Arminians like to say "He is referring to all His creation or the whole world there." Merely speculation or assumptions. I challenge you to study who you think "His people" really are.....

 

[godrulz]

He came to the Jews as their Messiah. He was the fulfillment of the type. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, both Jew and Gentile. He came to the Jew first. Not all Jews or people are saved (in either Calvinism or Arminianism). He died for them, but not all people will appropriate the provision. The verse is not teaching universalism, nor limited atonement. He came to His own, but many rejected Him. Yet to ALL who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave them the authority to become children of God (Jn. 1:11,12). Those who did not believe will be separated from Him, even though He died for their sins provisionally. The atonement is not a literal payment (commercial transaction theory), so that is why everyone is not saved even though He died for them. A response to the Messiah was needed, since God is not a divine rapist. Those who responded with repentance and faith are regenerated and transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

This was a reminder of Jer. 31:31-33 that God promised to provide salvation for His people (Jews) through the New Covenant. Matthew was written primarily to a Jewish audience about the coming Messiah. The reality is that not every Jew was saved with the New Covenant. They could remain outside the covenant to their loss by rejecting the Messiah. Jesus was the great divider. There is a warfare for the souls of men. It is not a predestined, foregone conclusion where God has set a limited quota for heaven and banished the majority. The atonement is efficacious and the love of God goes beyond a small elect group. Whosoever will may come and find rest, water, life, light, hope.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by godrulz

He came to the Jews as their Messiah. He was the fulfillment of the type. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, both Jew and Gentile. He came to the Jew first. Not all Jews or people are saved (in either Calvinism or Arminianism). He died for them, but not all people will appropriate the provision. The verse is not teaching universalism, nor limited atonement. He came to His own, but many rejected Him. Yet to ALL who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave them the authority to become children of God (Jn. 1:11,12). Those who did not believe will be separated from Him, even though He died for their sins provisionally. The atonement is not a literal payment (commercial transaction theory), so that is why everyone is not saved even though He died for them. A response to the Messiah was needed, since God is not a divine rapist. Those who responded with repentance and faith are regenerated and transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

This was a reminder of Jer. 31:31-33 that God promised to provide salvation for His people (Jews) through the New Covenant. Matthew was written primarily to a Jewish audience about the coming Messiah. The reality is that not every Jew was saved with the New Covenant. They could remain outside the covenant to their loss by rejecting the Messiah. Jesus was the great divider. There is a warfare for the souls of men. It is not a predestined, foregone conclusion where God has set a limited quota for heaven and banished the majority. The atonement is efficacious and the love of God goes beyond a small elect group. Whosoever will may come and find rest, water, life, light, hope.

Godrulz,

Who are God's "sheep"?


John 10:11, 15
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep


You say, "those who believe", but Jesus said the exact opposite:


John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.


Jesus said this to some Jews...

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Good point GIT. Most people just skip over this part or read real fast through this. All throughout the Gospels he refers to "His people" or "His sheep". The Arminians like to say "He is referring to all His creation or the whole world there." Merely speculation or assumptions. I challenge you to study who you think "His people" really are.....

i'm gonna say that they are the ones who have faith in him

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

Godrulz,

Who are God's "sheep"?


John 10:11, 15
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep


You say, "those who believe", but Jesus said the exact opposite:


John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.


Jesus said this to some Jews...

The sheep are the Jews. The 'other sheep' are the Gentiles (not the North Americans like the Mormons teach).

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i'm gonna say that they are the ones who have faith in him

Thats a good and scriptural answer. The people which He SHALL save, are those who will believe that Jesus is the Christ; The Son of God. Side by side with that belief, they also are those whom God the Father has granted repentance.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The above verse (if taken by itself) implies to some christians, that those whom our Lord was addressing, were free to repent or not repent. But are they correct in their assumption?

Other verses on "repentance" teach that the desire to repent is from God the Father:

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles GRANTED repentance unto life.

The greek for "granted" is didomi: 1) to give 2) to give something to someone
a) of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
1) to bestow a gift

Jhn 3:27 ... A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

I would encourage you to read Chapters 11 of Acts and John 3 for youself.

May God bless us all as we study to show ouselves approved by Him.