Does Calvinism limit God?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Didn't we go over this before? I posted a very good reponse, with the aid of John Piper. Do you remember? Here it is again, in case you "accidentally" skipped over it the first time....

No I didn't miss it, it glazed my eyes over almost immediately but I did read it and my basic response to it is that saying it doesn't make it so.

The simple fact is that love is selfless. Not because God says so but because of who God is. God is love and He is therefore selfless by definition. There is no such thing and a selfish love because selfishness and love are mutually exclusive concepts.
God was not required to become a man and die for mankind, He could have justly detroyed the earth and all that was in it but He chose to do the more loving thing and SACRIFICE Himself for our benefit. And make no mistake, it was for our benefit. We do not add anything to God. God would not have been deminished in the slightest if He had sent every last one of us to a burning hell forever. His humiliation is our salvation and that salvation could not have been purchased for any less a price.
Further, you and Mr. Piper seem to not understand what God's glory even is or what it is that makes Him glorious. Indeed, I can't imagine that such an argument could even be made if one did understand what makes God a glorious God. Do you not see that it is precisely because God is not selfish that He is glorious! The very righteousness of God IS His glory! His self sacrificial love is the absolute pinacle of what it means to be glorious. It's not God's power alone that makes Him glorious but that power displayed through humility. God's meakness is what makes Him truly glorious, not simply that He is the creator and the only one worthy of worship.
"Love does not seek its own." This coupled with "God is love." should be the equivelant to an atomic bomb in relation to this twisted theology and yet Piper basically ignores this. He gives mention to the verse because anyone with a mind can see intuitively that it creates a problem with this theology but his whole argument amounts to saying that the definition of love for us humans doesn't apply toward God, for God, love is different somehow. And this is just not good enough. Love is love and selfishness is not love, period.

The argument from scripture is sound and still stands...

God is love. (1Jo 4:8)
Love does not seek its own. (1Cr 13:4)
Therefore...
God does not seek His own.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

No I didn't miss it, it glazed my eyes over almost immediately but I did read it and my basic response to it is that saying it doesn't make it so.

The simple fact is that love is selfless. Not because God says so but because of who God is. God is love and He is therefore selfless by definition. There is no such thing and a selfish love because selfishness and love are mutually exclusive concepts.
God was not required to become a man and die for mankind, He could have justly detroyed the earth and all that was in it but He chose to do the more loving thing and SACRIFICE Himself for our benefit. And make no mistake, it was for our benefit. We do not add anything to God. God would not have been deminished in the slightest if He had sent every last one of us to a burning hell forever. His humiliation is our salvation and that salvation could not have been purchased for any less a price.
Further, you and Mr. Piper seem to not understand what God's glory even is or what it is that makes Him glorious. Indeed, I can't imagine that such an argument could even be made if one did understand what makes God a glorious God. Do you not see that it is precisely because God is not selfish that He is glorious! The very righteousness of God IS His glory! His self sacrificial love is the absolute pinacle of what it means to be glorious. It's not God's power alone that makes Him glorious but that power displayed through humility. God's meakness is what makes Him truly glorious, not simply that He is the creator and the only one worthy of worship.
"Love does not seek its own." This coupled with "God is love." should be the equivelant to an atomic bomb in relation to this twisted theology and yet Piper basically ignores this. He gives mention to the verse because anyone with a mind can see intuitively that it creates a problem with this theology but his whole argument amounts to saying that the definition of love for us humans doesn't apply toward God, for God, love is different somehow. And this is just not good enough. Love is love and selfishness is not love, period.

The argument from scripture is sound and still stands...

God is love. (1Jo 4:8)
Love does not seek its own. (1Cr 13:4)
Therefore...
God does not seek His own.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete,

Then you believe God was created for mankind, not vice versa. Somehow, you believe that He is here to serve our purposes, not the other way around.

Let's get something straight; It's not about us - It's all about God.

If God does not seek His own, than what hope do we have in Him? If He does not seek what is ultimately the Highest Virture and Glory and Love in all the universe, then what is it that He does seek? Are we to follow? What hope, other than in God, do we have?

If God is not for Himself, then we are hopeless...

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man


If God is not for Himself, then we are hopeless...

Romans 8:31
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Romans 8:31
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?

I'm not stating that God isn't for "us" (the elect) in anyway. I just wanna make it clear that that is not His ultimate purpose. His ultimate purpose is to see Himself exalted; His happiness is in Himself and to display His glory. Creation is simply a "public display" of God's overflowing love and glory for Himself.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

I'm not stating that God isn't for "us" (the elect) in anyway. I just wanna make it clear that that is not His ultimate purpose. His ultimate purpose is to see Himself exalted; His happiness is in Himself and to display His glory. Creation is simply a "public display" of God's overflowing love and glory for Himself.

so God is both for us and for himself?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so God is both for us and for himself?

God can only be for us if He is for Himself.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Clete,

Then you believe God was created for mankind, not vice versa. Somehow, you believe that He is here to serve our purposes, not the other way around.

No I don't. This is lunacy! Where are you getting this crap from? :kookoo:
God created us because He wanted a creature with which He could have a genuine love relationship. He created us specifically so that He would have someone OTHER THAN HIMSELF to love.

Let's get something straight; It's not about us - It's all about God.

Well, I'm sorry but when it comes to the Earth and this creation, it is at least partly about us isn't it? Wasn't it us who God died for? God became a man, did He not? God loves US, right?
This sort of statement is meaningless. It sounds pious but it is really just false humility that isn't based on Scripture but based merely in the selfish desire of the pious to appear the most humble.

If God does not seek His own, than what hope do we have in Him? If He does not seek what is ultimately the Highest Virtue and Glory and Love in all the universe, then what is it that He does seek? Are we to follow? What hope, other than in God, do we have?
If God is not for Himself, then we are hopeless...

So our hope is in God's selfishness? Is that what you are saying?
THIS IS TOTALLY BACKWARD!!!
Our salvation is based on God having HUMBLED Himself, allowing Himself to be killed in our stead.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life FOR his friends.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

I'm not stating that God isn't for "us" (the elect) in anyway. I just wanna make it clear that that is not His ultimate purpose. His ultimate purpose is to see Himself exalted; His happiness is in Himself and to display His glory. Creation is simply a "public display" of God's overflowing love and glory for Himself.

You gentlemen seem to be emphasizing truths on the spectrum. They are not mutually exlusive. God can be glorified and man can have worth and be loved. God and man can be happy. Love is seeking the highest good and glory of God and the highest good of man (to know and love God forever). God is supreme, but so is His love for the race as evidenced by the cross.

ZMAN once again wrongly accuses Clete of believing God was created for man, not vice versa. This does not compute from anything we believe. Your reasoning skills disappoint me at times.

Clete: Keep up the clarity. It is frustrating dealing with people who have a one-string theology, not recognizing that we are equally theocentric. We understand God is supreme, but there are also plants, animals, angels, demons, and man in His universe. Comments about His glorious creation do not detract from the Creator, but exalt Him. He is not insecure or self-centered.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

You gentlemen seem to be emphasizing truths on the spectrum. They are not mutually exlusive. God can be glorified and man can have worth and be loved. God and man can be happy. Love is seeking the highest good and glory of God and the highest good of man (to know and love God forever). God is supreme, but so is His love for the race as evidenced by the cross.

I agree with this completely.

If Z Man would say the same, I think we could move on.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

...It is frustrating dealing with people who have a one-string theology, not recognizing that we are equally theocentric.

Surely, you jest!

The centerpiece of arminianism is man, and what MAN will do with the offer of the gospel. No matter how much God desires his salvation; no matter what pressures or influences God brings to bear; no matter what; MAN is in charge of his own destiny and His Creator has no power to change man's heart.

We are told that God will not interfere with man's "Free Will", that hearts of stone have soft spots, that the spiritually dead (the natural man) are capable of spiritural understanding.

In short, that MAN is the captain of his soul and the master of his own fate.

Your theology, by any stretch of the imagination, is NOT theocentric: God rules, but is overuled; God is all mighty, but not mighty enough to persuade a stubborn man. God is all wise, but not wise enough to overcome man's objections. Man is saved by grace, but man must recieve it...

Why should God get ALL the glory when the salvation is worthless apart from MANS consent?

I could go on...but you get my drift.

 

[godrulz]

Salvation is a love relationship between two parties that must be freely entered into and maintained. It is in the realm of morals, which involves choice. Love is a choice. Relationship is the essence of salvation, not a unilateral coerced metaphysical change.

Salvation would not happen without God providing and initiating it. He gets all the glory even though we have a required response/condition set out by God Himself.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by John Reformed

Surely, you jest!

The centerpiece of arminianism is man, and what MAN will do with the offer of the gospel. No matter how much God desires his salvation; no matter what pressures or influences God brings to bear; no matter what; MAN is in charge of his own destiny and His Creator has no power to change man's heart.

We are told that God will not interfere with man's "Free Will", that hearts of stone have soft spots, that the spiritually dead (the natural man) are capable of spiritural understanding.

In short, that MAN is the captain of his soul and the master of his own fate.

Your theology, by any stretch of the imagination, is NOT theocentric: God rules, but is overruled; God is all mighty, but not mighty enough to persuade a stubborn man. God is all wise, but not wise enough to overcome man's objections. Man is saved by grace, but man must receive it...

Why should God get ALL the glory when the salvation is worthless apart from MANS consent?

I could go on...but you get my drift.

First of all I am not an Armenian. Armenians are entirely too Calvinistic!
Secondly, If I have control of my own destiny it is only because God has delegated that authority to me.
Deu 30:19 I (GOD) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I (GOD) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
It's not as if I went to God and told Him under which conditions He would save me, it was He who decided to put the plan of salvation in place and it was He who left it up to me to choose life or not.
Thus God is still on His thrown and all the Calvinist ranting about how man is sovereign is idiotic and baseless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Clete: Once again you speak with clarity. There is something flawed in the Calvinistic logic and defenses that they cannot seem to see.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Clete: Once again you speak with clarity. There is something flawed in the Calvinistic logic and defenses that they cannot seem to see.

That's what makes TOL fun! :thumb:

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

Salvation is a love relationship between two parties that must be freely entered into and maintained. It is in the realm of morals, which involves choice. Love is a choice. Relationship is the essence of salvation, not a unilateral coerced metaphysical change.

Salvation would not happen without God providing and initiating it. He gets all the glory even though we have a required response/condition set out by God Himself.

Blind eyes and deaf ears. Hearts of stone whose desires are continually wicked. Dead in sin. None seek God not one, and consider the goapel foolishness. Slaves to sin; in bondage; subject to the will of Satan...etc, etc...

The above is a partial list of descriptions regarding unregenerate man.

Of course, if you have a verse or two that supports your contention that these self same men also have freedom to choose...I'd be interested in discovering what they say as well.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Only God has that kind of power. It's called regeneration.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

First of all I am not an Armenian. Armenians are entirely too Calvinistic!
Secondly, If I have control of my own destiny it is only because God has delegated that authority to me.
Deu 30:19 I (GOD) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I (GOD) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
It's not as if I went to God and told Him under which conditions He would save me, it was He who decided to put the plan of salvation in place and it was He who left it up to me to choose life or not.
Thus God is still on His thrown and all the Calvinist ranting about how man is sovereign is idiotic and baseless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Your missing (or ignoring) the point Clete. Before one may choose life or death, he must have a desire for one or the other. Unless God changes our sinful desire to serve ourselves alone, we will continue to view His offer as foolishness.

God does not merely make salvation possible, He actually saves people.

The last time I checked, God was still KING and not the president of a democracy! Those who recieve Christ do so because of the work of the Holy Spirit. Not any good thing (such as a desire for God) in them. If they had any good thing in them, they would deserve to be applauded for it.

No, my friend...Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is not a remnant of spirituality that God spared for the son's of Adam. We are not born again by our own will, but by the will of God.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by John Reformed

Surely, you jest!

The centerpiece of arminianism is man, and what MAN will do with the offer of the gospel. No matter how much God desires his salvation; no matter what pressures or influences God brings to bear; no matter what; MAN is in charge of his own destiny and His Creator has no power to change man's heart.

We are told that God will not interfere with man's "Free Will", that hearts of stone have soft spots, that the spiritually dead (the natural man) are capable of spiritural understanding.

In short, that MAN is the captain of his soul and the master of his own fate.

Your theology, by any stretch of the imagination, is NOT theocentric: God rules, but is overuled; God is all mighty, but not mighty enough to persuade a stubborn man. God is all wise, but not wise enough to overcome man's objections. Man is saved by grace, but man must recieve it...

Why should God get ALL the glory when the salvation is worthless apart from MANS consent?

I could go on...but you get my drift.

love is a choice. If you didn't have the option not to choose it wouldn't be love.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by deardelmar

love is a choice. If you didn't have the option not to choose it wouldn't be love.

The desire to love God is not present in fallen man. The Bible says in Gen 6:5 :And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Besides that, it is primarily repentance that drives us to the cross:
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Our love for Christ blossoms after we begin to realize His love for us and the full extent of His sacrifice.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

It is following the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that we find in our hearts an overwhelming love toward Christ. We have been made new creatures. The fact that we do love His is an evidence of that we have been saves. Not a requirement in order to be saved.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

love is a choice. If you didn't have the option not to choose it wouldn't be love.

Minirth-Meier says "love is a choice", but I don't think Scripture says that:

1JN 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God.

Let us love, because love comes from God, and not from us. We have to receive love from him, in order to love. I agree with what John posted:

1JN 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

It is following the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that we find in our hearts an overwhelming love toward Christ. We have been made new creatures.

One more question! Do people in heaven have an option not to love? I think they do really love God, but I don't think they can choose to sin. Otherwise, people could fall out of heaven.

We can choose how to express love, once we have love that comes from God. But we can't choose to love on our own.

Deu 30:19 I (GOD) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I (GOD) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.

Here is a similar verse:

JOS 24:15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

JOS 24:16 Then the people answered ... "We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God."

JOS 24:19 Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the Lord."

And that's right! They weren't. The whole book of Judges is one sad story of the Israelites bouncing back and forth, and going farther and farther down each time.

In order for us to really choose God, he has to give us the ability to do that:

2TI 2:25 ... in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[John Reformed]

The elect of God (His People; His Sheep.)

The elect of God (His People; His Sheep.)

This brings us to the question: For whom did Christ die?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

SHALL SAVE: Sozo. 1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a) one (from injury or peril)


1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

b) to save in the technical biblical sense

Anyone with even the faintest understanding of Scripture must admit that the world as a whole has not been saved. You will appeal to me by citing John 3 perhaps. But it says in context that only those who believe shall be saved; That those who do not believe have been condemned ALREADY!

No my friends...Jesus never failed to accomplish anything, for which He was sent to accomplish. HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE and HE HAS SAVED HIS PEOPLE.

So...Who are His people? The Jews? In a sense they are His people. He was born among the people of the tribe of Israel. But as Paul points out in Rom 9: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel"..."That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"

Not the "children of the flesh" but the "children of God" are counted as the the heirs to God's promise to Abraham. These are the people that Jesus came to save.

His sheep hear His voice. Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Your thoughts?