You are an extreme moron :doh:
Do the Angels in Heaven Have a FREE WILL?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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You are an extreme moron :doh:
Ben Masada
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ttruscott
Well-known member
I contend that at the creation of every person in HIS image we were created as ingenuously innocent, not perfect, with the ability to use our free will to choose to become perfectly (completely) righteous and holy by accepting YHWH's deity OR to chose to become perfectly (completely) eternally evil by rejecting in YHWH's deity.
Morals depend upon choice. A stone does no evil but it is not morally good. To be righteous and holy, that is, in total accord with GOD's attributes, plans and purposes, must be based upon a free will decision because if we did not choose to be 'good' like this, then we exhibit GOD's goodness expressed in us, not our own goodness at all. That our own goodness is important is found in the fact that we are punished for our failures to choose good...
So wherever we were first created, Satan chose to set his moral path by rebelling against the claims of YHWH to be his god, putting his faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god, choosing to go to hell if HE were proven to be GOD rather than to be married to HIM in heaven forever.
Heaven can simply mean "a realm where God dwells". On the other hand, when we talk about Heaven we refer it to be the future New Earth and New Heaven where God, angels and humans will finally live together. The two can be different.
Freewill will inevitably signifies division. For the degree of freewill given to angels and their nature as servants of God, their division thus occurs in the heavenly dwelling place of God.
After the angel division in heaven and the human division on earth. We are thus more like another Exodus to enter the promised land of New Earth and New Heaven.
Freewill will inevitably signifies division. For the degree of freewill given to angels and their nature as servants of God, their division thus occurs in the heavenly dwelling place of God.
After the angel division in heaven and the human division on earth. We are thus more like another Exodus to enter the promised land of New Earth and New Heaven.
ttruscott
Well-known member
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I see a problem with the idea that a being can be booted out of Heaven.
In Heaven there should be no imperfection, no pride, no rebelliousness, no envy. What's to prevent another rebellion of angels or saints?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
God's will :duh:
Ben Masada
New member
ttruscott
Well-known member
My answer is that in heaven (or where ever we were created, probably Sheol) we were NOT created in perfection but as ingenuous innocents who could by our free will self create our moral qualities of perfect righteous holiness by accepting YHWH's divinity OR chose our moral quality as perfectly eternally evil by rejecting HIS divinity and HIS promise of salvation. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to live on the prison planet Earth.
In heaven everyone will have a free will but after seeing what evil did to others who did not chose holiness or what we ourselves experienced by being the sinful elect enslaved to evil and torturing our loved ones until GOD by HIS grace saved us from ourselves and we were trained in righteousness by painful discipline - these people will never never break their hard won commitment to loving holiness for sin...they know the truth and have the proof which the innocents in heaven did not have, having made their choices on faith, not proof.
What will prevent a new rebellion in heaven? The memory of the experience of the truth of the incredible enslaving power of evil and the proof of the great suffering we would cause WHILE we are fully experiencing the full loving and holy righteous telepathic communion with everyone in heaven including our GOD called our Marriage to HIM. Being righteous at heart and in love is the whole of it!
Right, God wants a people that will love him unconditionally. No rules, no laws, no religion.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I'm sorry, but that simply makes no sense. Heaven should be a place of perfection, where rebellion isn't possible. How could the angels have possibly rebelled? I don't know why I didn't think of this before now. And then you throw a few million or billion people into Heaven and then expect they'll behave like angels (pun intended) when even the angels rebelled, and supposedly rebelled before Adam and Eve supposedly walked in the garden. So the angels rebelled before there was ever such a concept as original sin. The entire rebellion narrative makes no sense. And all these people for all these millennia walking around thinking they were born already marked with original sin and they were doomed from the start unless they were saved.
dodge
New member
You might want to ask Satan and the many Angeles that rebelled against God and who were thrown out of heaven.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Your false premise of perfection leads you to a false conclusion that rebellion was impossible when all we know of life is that it really really did happen. This contradicts the scripture which makes it a non-starter: Revelation 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. Your thoughts have led you into error...
The possibility of their rebellion rests upon their free will and the fact that everyone chose by faith, not from proof whether YHWH's claims to be our GOD were true or a lie as Satan accepted.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
The original sin WAS their rebellion...
In the PCEC order of our Fall or choice to be evil in HIS sight:
1. GOD created everyone in HIS image with the ability to make free will decisions...able to choose to become perfectly righteous, that is holy OR perfectly eternally evil.
2. Everyone made in HIS image chose by their free will to either accept HIS claim to be our creator GOD or to reject HIS claims to be our GOD as the lies of a false god. These decisions were made by faith, not proof of HIS deity or power and without proof of heaven and hell.
3. These decision separated all of HIS creation into two groups: those who accepted HIS deity and HIS promise of salvation from any and all future sin who became believers by faith, HIS elect, HIS sheep, HIS good seed AND those those rejected HIS claims as the claim of a false god and HIS promise of salvation from all future sin as the lies of a false god with no power over heaven nor hell and so became non-believers by faith, non-elect goats and the people of the evil one doomed already.
Then YHWH called for all HIS elect to stand with HIM to judge the non-elect and banish them to the outer darkness but some of HIS elect, out of a misplaced love for the non-elect, rebelled against the judgment, not trusting their GOD that the judgment was an absolute necessity , so became evil in HIS sight too, sheep gone astray into sin, forcing HIM to postpone the judgment so they would not be pulled up with the non-elect against HIS promise.
4. Then HE proved HIS power and divinity with the creation of the physical universe before our eyes so everyone knew the truth (Rom 1:20) and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise! (Job 38:7)
5. Then Michael waged his war against Satan (Revelation 12:7), throwing him and his demonic angels (the goats) down to Sheol in the earth from where the devil sows them into the earth. At this same time the sinful elect were sent to Sheol to wait their turn to be born so the promise of salvation by Christ could be given to them.
All original sin of both elect believers and the non-elect who are doomed already is the sins they chose by their free will before the foundation of the world.
Ben Masada
New member
And the home of Satan was in heaven! God Almighty have mercy on us! This is making me dizzy!
Ben Masada
New member
Heaven is the sky part of the universe. The universe, Biblically speaking, is the same as "Heavens and earth."
ttruscott
Well-known member
Of course...did you think he fought his way there? When he lived there he was an innocent until he rejected by faith the deity of YHWH and by this choice became the most sinful, the first reject YHWH and thus the leader of the eternally demonically evil.
Just as Michael was innocent until he accepted YHWH's claims to deity and never wavered but chose perfect holiness, that is he chose to be perfectly in accord with YHWH's attributes and all HIS purposes and plans. Then as the first holy Angel he became the leader of GOD's heavenly army and forced all sinners out of heaven to the earth, though some of the elect sinners denied that loving the reprobate was a sin and needed their eyes opened to that reality.
dodge
New member
Satan was an Arch angel ! Where do you think he lived if not in heaven ?
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Do you know what Gods standard for perfection is? As its obviously not what you think it is. Nonetheless if God wanted robots he would have created robots. Turns out he wants people to love him and worship him because they want to.
The same is true of mankind. Adam & Eve was created 'perfect' and yet Adam choose to sin. Both of them also had the choice to obey. But like Satan and his demons they choose to rebel.