did man ever remit sin ?

DAN P

Well-known member
read John 20:22 says that Jesus that the 12 were assembled hen Jesus appeared to them .

#2 then in verse 21 , He is sending them on a mission .

#3 in verse 22 , Jesus says , receive ye " THE " Holy Spirit .

the , is in brackets , as many say that The Greek word " the " is not in the Greek text .

If the Greek the as used , it means the gift of the Holy SAPIRIT .

if the Greek word " the " is not used it means " the power of the Holy Spirit >

so here Jesus breathes on them power of Holy SPIRIT .

#3 verse 23 , whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them , whose soever ye retain they are retained .

the question is , how did the disciples remit sins ?

of course the rcc has and answer

what say you ?

dan p
 

Derf

Well-known member
read John 20:22 says that Jesus that the 12 were assembled hen Jesus appeared to them .

#2 then in verse 21 , He is sending them on a mission .

#3 in verse 22 , Jesus says , receive ye " THE " Holy Spirit .

the , is in brackets , as many say that The Greek word " the " is not in the Greek text .

If the Greek the as used , it means the gift of the Holy SAPIRIT .

if the Greek word " the " is not used it means " the power of the Holy Spirit >

so here Jesus breathes on them power of Holy SPIRIT .

#3 verse 23 , whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them , whose soever ye retain they are retained .

the question is , how did the disciples remit sins ?

of course the rcc has and answer

what say you ?

dan p
I always thought they remitted sins by sharing the gospel, but I admit that the answer isn't fully compelling.
 

Derf

Well-known member
They only knew the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the circumcision. How do those "remit sins"?
Jesus, newly raised from the dead, is talking to them, breathing on them, eating with them, showing them His scars, telling them about receiving the Holy Spirit, and you say they only know about the kingdom?
 

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Jesus, newly raised from the dead, is talking to them, breathing on them, eating with them, showing them His scars, telling them about receiving the Holy Spirit, and you say they only know about the kingdom?
At that time, Jesus had NOT told anyone about the gospel of the grace of God... so they were certainly not preaching what was UNKNOWN to them.
 

Derf

Well-known member
At that time, Jesus had NOT told anyone about the gospel of the grace of God... so they were certainly not preaching what was UNKNOWN to them.
Don't be so stuck in your systematic that you don't read the text. They were seeing the gospel played out before, the good news that Jesus overcame death. They didn't have to hear it being taught.
 

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Don't be so stuck in your systematic that you don't read the text. They were seeing the gospel played out before, the good news that Jesus overcame death. They didn't have to hear it being taught.
Hilarious. You've been shown the truth many times and yet you cling to your mythology of the "one and only one gospel".

Let me show you this AGAIN.

Luke 9:1-6 (AKJV/PCE)​
(9:1) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (9:2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (9:3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for [your] journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. (9:4) And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. (9:5) And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. (9:6) And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

So the twelve were "preaching the gospel" (of the kingdom) for at least TWO YEARS and YET they did not even know that Christ would DIE.

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​
(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

So... they were preaching a gospel what was MISSING the most critical thing about the GOSPEL of the GRACE of God... i.e., Christ's DEATH for our sins.

If you cannot understand this, then you are spiritually retarded.
 

JudgeRightly

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Don't be so stuck in your systematic that you don't read the text. They were seeing the gospel played out before, the good news that Jesus overcame death. They didn't have to hear it being taught.

Right back at you.

Kind of hard to teach the gospel of grace if you don't mention the word grace.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Hilarious. You've been shown the truth many times and yet you cling to your mythology of the "one and only one gospel".

Let me show you this AGAIN.

Luke 9:1-6 (AKJV/PCE)​
(9:1) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (9:2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (9:3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for [your] journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. (9:4) And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. (9:5) And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. (9:6) And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

So the twelve were "preaching the gospel" (of the kingdom) for at least TWO YEARS and YET they did not even know that Christ would DIE.

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​
(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

So... they were preaching a gospel what was MISSING the most critical thing about the GOSPEL of the GRACE of God... i.e., Christ's DEATH for our sins.

If you cannot understand this, then you are spiritually retarded.
But it wasn't missing the most important element, that the Messiah had come. Sure, they didn't know all the details about how that would play out, including how it would bring in the Gentiles, but it was good news, because from Jesus would come everlasting life. The gospel isn't just about grace--that's part of the dispensation (pouring out) of the gospel on the Gentiles and saving those who couldn't keep the covenant perfectly. But the gospel is about eternal life, which came through Jesus Christ.

[Isa 52:7 NKJV] How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good [things], Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

[Rom 10:15 NKJV] And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
 

Derf

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Right back at you.

Kind of hard to teach the gospel of grace if you don't mention the word grace.
Not true at all. Explaining to someone they can be saved from their sins and live forevermore doesn't require the word grace at all.
 

JudgeRightly

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Not true at all. Explaining to someone they can be saved from their sins and live forevermore doesn't require the word grace at all.

It does when that's the means by which one is saved.

Not the case in the gospel of the kingdom, which required adherence to the law.

Law is not grace.
 

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But it wasn't missing the most important element, that the Messiah had come.
So... much like Gary K, you're willing to ignore the CROSS OF CHRIST in preaching the gospel of the grace of God?
Sure, they didn't know all the details about how that would play out, including how it would bring in the Gentiles, but it was good news, because from Jesus would come everlasting life. The gospel isn't just about grace--
The GOSPEL of the GRACE of God is most certainly "about GRACE".
Why do you fight so hard against the truth?
that's part of the dispensation (pouring out) of the gospel on the Gentiles and saving those who couldn't keep the covenant perfectly.
The gentiles did NOT have a covenant.

Eph 2:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)​
(2:11) Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (2:12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​
But the gospel is about eternal life, which came through Jesus Christ.
Which gospel? The gospel of the KINGDOM was about the KINGDOM.
[Isa 52:7 NKJV] How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good [things], Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
Another "dictionary theologian"... salvation (and "saved") does NOT always mean the SAME salvation.

Luke 1:67-75 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.​
[Rom 10:15 NKJV] And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
So now you think that the "gospel of peace" is identical to the "gospel of the grace of God".

You are so lost in the scripture. You need serious help ... but you will not listen to those that try to help you.
 
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JudgeRightly

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But it wasn't missing the most important element, that the Messiah had come.

The promise of the Messiah was for the restoration of Israel.

And then Israel rejected her Messiah, and so God decided to demonstrate that He was not limited to using Israel to preach to the nations, but that He could reach the nations IN SPITE OF Israel's rebellion.

Sure, they didn't know all the details about how that would play out, including how it would bring in the Gentiles, but it was good news, because from Jesus would come everlasting life.

They knew from the scriptures that if God promised to establish and raise up a nation, and then that nation rebelled, that God would not establish and raise up that nation.

The gospel isn't just about grace--

The gospel of the kingdom isn't about grace at all.

The gospel of grace is... well, about God's grace.

I seriously can't believe you just said that "the gospel isn't just about grace." YES IT IS!

It is LITERALLY the entire gospel, how God is gracious towards sinners, and not only is He willing to reconcile with sinners, but even to forgive them, in spite of them violating His laws!

The kingdom gospel, however, is that God is MERCIFUL to those who keep the law, IN ORDER TO be considered righteous.

Which is the entire crux of the matter.

How is one made/considered righteous?

Is it by keeping the law (ie, works)? Then he is under the gospel of the kingdom.

Is it solely through the grace of God and NOT of works (keeping the law)? Then he is under the gospel of grace.

Law is not grace.

that's part of the dispensation (pouring out) of the gospel on the Gentiles and saving those who couldn't keep the covenant perfectly. But the gospel is about eternal life, which came through Jesus Christ.

[Isa 52:7 NKJV] How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good [things], Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

[Rom 10:15 NKJV] And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

The gospel (good news) for the house of Israel was that if they kept the law, they would be seen as righteous.

The gospel (good news) for the Body of Christ is that if one recognizes that he CANNOT keep the law, and puts his trust in God to save him, he would be seen as righteous.

Things that are different are not the same.
 

Derf

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The promise of the Messiah was for the restoration of Israel.
The promise of the Messiah was for the restoration of life from the dead. That promise was made in Genesis 3, before Israel existed.
[Gen 3:15 KJV] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Israel had additional promises made to them, but those did not negate the original promise that was for all people, all descendants of Adam.
And then Israel rejected her Messiah, and so God decided to demonstrate that He was not limited to using Israel to preach to the nations, but that He could reach the nations IN SPITE OF Israel's rebellion.
Preach WHAT to the nations? Salvation in Jesus' name? So even though the Messiah was to come to Israel first, it wasn't primarily for the benefit of Israel, but the benefit of all mankind, as you are admitting here. The purpose, as you are stating, was to "reach the nations", whether Israel rebelled or not. That good news was preached at Christ's birth.
[Luk 2:10 NKJV] Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.

[Act 26:22 KJV] Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
[Act 26:23 KJV] That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Paul is preaching the same message, with a little extra bit of information--not the part about it being to the Gentiles, but that the Jews weren't required to have their kingdom and all the trappings for Gentiles to be saved (plus the Gentiles would be considered "fellow heirs"). If the good news was that all people could be saved (shown light), including Gentiles from Moses and the prophets, then that part of the message hasn't changed. The only part that has, perhaps, is that God will save Gentiles even if the Jewish nation doesn't want to participate.


They knew from the scriptures that if God promised to establish and raise up a nation, and then that nation rebelled, that God would not establish and raise up that nation.
ok
The gospel of the kingdom isn't about grace at all.
It is if it introduces salvation from death to the world.
The gospel of grace is... well, about God's grace.
Right--salvation from death.
I seriously can't believe you just said that "the gospel isn't just about grace." YES IT IS!
No, it isn't--it is about salvation from death. Grace without that is worthless.
It is LITERALLY the entire gospel, how God is gracious towards sinners, and not only is He willing to reconcile with sinners, but even to forgive them, in spite of them violating His laws!
Yep, Jews, too. Remember what the sacrifices were for? law violations. And it wasn't enough. THey needed grace, in the form of Jesus Christ.
The kingdom gospel, however, is that God is MERCIFUL to those who keep the law, IN ORDER TO be considered righteous.
And that the Gentiles would be given light (Christ), too. The message is the same, but the path had to be rearranged (different dispensation). The path was NEVER the keeping of the law.
Which is the entire crux of the matter.

How is one made/considered righteous?
Only by the righteousness of Christ. Only! For Everyone!
Is it by keeping the law (ie, works)? Then he is under the gospel of the kingdom.
NO. Hebrews tells us the law, the old covenant, couldn't do that.
[Heb 9:9 KJV] Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

The author of Hebrews is explaining to them that the law could not make the Jew perfect. The way into the holy of holies was not yet provided, until Jesus:
[Heb 9:8 KJV] The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

If it couldn't do that, and therefore a new covenant was needed, then why do you now say that keeping the law is sufficient to save someone?
[Heb 10:1 KJV] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[Heb 10:5 KJV] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[Heb 10:6 KJV] In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[Heb 10:8 KJV] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
[Heb 10:9 KJV] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
This is to those who you say are following and trusting in the kingdom gospel. It is saying, "don't trust in the law to establish your righteousness." Why? because it was never about establishing their own righteousness, neither could it be.
Is it solely through the grace of God and NOT of works (keeping the law)? Then he is under the gospel of grace.
Lest ANY man (including Jews) could boast. If it was possible to be saved by keeping the law, Paul tells us that Christ wouldn't have been necessary. Why then have the law?
[Gal 3:19 KJV] Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

When did the seed, to whom the promise was made, come??? And then the law was no longer needed. Was Peter (and the twelve) BEFORE or AFTER the seed coming? Was Paul before or after? Both were after. Paul had to explain all of this stuff to the Jews, including the twelve, but it was there for them all to see.

Law is not grace.
Yep. That's why grace was necessary for even the law-keepers. I think you've said this before yourself.
[Gal 3:11 KJV] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[Gal 3:12 KJV] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
The gospel (good news) for the house of Israel was that if they kept the law, they would be seen as righteous.
Bah! Then they could boast. Paul said "lest any man could boast." The Pharisees were already seen as righteous keepers of the law. But it was all whitewash on sepulchres.
The gospel (good news) for the Body of Christ is that if one recognizes that he CANNOT keep the law, and puts his trust in God to save him, he would be seen as righteous.
Which applies to everyone. If the Jew recognizes that he can't keep the law, then his only chance is to put his trust in Christ, just like the Gentile. Peter told us the Jew can't keep the law:
[Act 15:10 KJV] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Things that are different are not the same.
Which means nothing good, if you try to use it to subvert the grace of God provided even to the Jews. Peter said there wasn't supposed to be a difference:
[Act 15:9 KJV] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

So it seems important that things that are not different, and not intended to be different, not be made to be different.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
The promise of the Messiah was for the restoration of Israel.

And then Israel rejected her Messiah, and so God decided to demonstrate that He was not limited to using Israel to preach to the nations, but that He could reach the nations IN SPITE OF Israel's rebellion.



They knew from the scriptures that if God promised to establish and raise up a nation, and then that nation rebelled, that God would not establish and raise up that nation.



The gospel of the kingdom isn't about grace at all.

The gospel of grace is... well, about God's grace.

I seriously can't believe you just said that "the gospel isn't just about grace." YES IT IS!

It is LITERALLY the entire gospel, how God is gracious towards sinners, and not only is He willing to reconcile with sinners, but even to forgive them, in spite of them violating His laws!

The kingdom gospel, however, is that God is MERCIFUL to those who keep the law, IN ORDER TO be considered righteous.

Which is the entire crux of the matter.

How is one made/considered righteous?

Is it by keeping the law (ie, works)? Then he is under the gospel of the kingdom.

Is it solely through the grace of God and NOT of works (keeping the law)? Then he is under the gospel of grace.

Law is not grace.



The gospel (good news) for the house of Israel was that if they kept the law, they would be seen as righteous.

The gospel (good news) for the Body of Christ is that if one recognizes that he CANNOT keep the law, and puts his trust in God to save him, he would be seen as righteous.

Things that are different are not the same.
this is what I see !

# 1 The only on that say that they can remit sin is the many groups , called the rcc and those that follow there teachings .

#2 it is John , and I say it is speaking to Israel only .

#3 Acts 2:36 is speaking to Israel

# 4 please notice that Peter , in Acts 2:38 Peter , Israel has to repent and be baptized ( this baptism is not water ) in the

name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (( notice it is not in the name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit )) and you will

receive the gift of the Holy Spirit .

# 5 we know that they , , Israel reject their Messiah and their sins were Retained .

#6 only those in Acts 2:41 there added three thousand soul .

# 7 those that rejected Acts 2:38 their sins were retained and there sins were not remitted .

dan p
 
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