Did Christ die for all men?

[Crucible]

"Faith is not a work"

Correct.

Because faith is not something one 'does'. It is an imputation from God's providence, in which a person 'transforms' through His will.

A work is anything except faith- they are the smoke from the fire thereof.

 

[zzub]

The Christ of scripture died for all saved men. He did not die for them that are lost.

Luke 19:10

New International Version
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

New Living Translation
For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost."

English Standard Version
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

 

[beloved57]

Luke 19:10

New International Version
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

New Living Translation
For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost."

English Standard Version
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Yeah, He sought them and saved them. That's why He said it is finished. He finished what He came to do.

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[Bright Raven]

Yeah, He sought them and saved them. That's why He said it is finished. He finished what He came to do.

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And he tasted death for all men;

Hebrews 2:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

[dodge]

He did. So the gospel writers after the fact could put it down. They did not know what was going on. Nobody did but the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

Luke 18

31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

The post I was responding to was:

Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
He told them when His death was imminent that He would die. He did NOT tell them why! The why was a mystery and it is the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery that just so happens to be the gospel of our salvation!

The POINT is there was NO NEW message that Paul or anyone else brought forth. Agreed that God for His purpose hid the meaning of the message that Jesus told them, but again there was no NEW revelation by anyone. God in His time opened the meaning of the message that Jesus had already delivered.

 

[Nick M]

The POINT is there was NO NEW message that Paul or anyone else brought forth.

And that is the point of my post. That you are twisting the truth. Paul did preach a new gospel. One that was hidden from the 12. Not only was it hidden from the 12 as I pointed out, it was hidden from all. That is one of the few things wrong in the Passion of the Christ. Satan did not cry out in agony at the cross. He thought he beat the Son of David, and subsequently, God.

1 Corinthians 2

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[dodge]

And that is the point of my post. That you are twisting the truth. Paul did preach a new gospel. One that was hidden from the 12. Not only was it hidden from the 12 as I pointed out, it was hidden from all. That is one of the few things wrong in the Passion of the Christ. Satan did not cry out in agony at the cross. He thought he beat the Son of David, and subsequently, God.

I did NOT twist ANYTHING I quoted scripture.

Paul did NOT preach a new gospel ! Jesus had already revealed the gospel. God withheld the meaning , but Paul preached NOTHING new.

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Bright Raven]

I did NOT twist ANYTHING I quoted scripture.

Paul did NOT preach a new gospel ! Jesus had already revealed the gospel. God withheld the meaning , but Paul preached NOTHING new.

Paul preached the death burial and resurrection of jesus. That was new. If not, show where it was preached by someone else.

 

[dodge]

Paul preached the death burial and resurrection of jesus. That was new. If not, show where it was preached by someone else.

Jesus said that a long time before Paul preached what Jesus had ALREADY said.

Jhn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus said that a long time before Paul preached what Jesus had ALREADY said.

Jhn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

You are grasping a straws. When He said that they did not even know what He meant.

 

[dodge]

You are grasping a straws. When He said that they did not even know what they meant.

YOU ARE ignoring scripture ! Paul preached NOTHING NEW.....That is a twisting of scripture.

Jesus said EXACTLY what He was dying for. THE GOSPEL.

 

[beloved57]

Correct.

Because faith is not something one 'does'. It is an imputation from God's providence, in which a person 'transforms' through His will.

A work is anything except faith- they are the smoke from the fire thereof.

Faith is something that a person does, it's believing, which is a act of the mind and heart. Therefore its a work. It's even a work of the law Matt 23:23 !

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[Bright Raven]

YOU ARE ignoring scripture ! Paul preached NOTHING NEW.....That is a twisting of scripture.

Jesus said EXACTLY what He was dying for. THE GOSPEL.

Paul preached the revelation given him by Jesus Christ;

Galatians 1:11-13 New International Version (NIV)

Paul Called by God
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

 

[Bright Raven]

Faith is something that a person does, it's believing, which is a act of the mind and heart. Therefore its a work. It's even a work of the law Matt 23:23 !

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Wrong!

From compelling truth.org

How is salvation not about work when faith is required? Isn't faith a work?

The famous nineteenth century British pastor Charles Spurgeon once explained that when we are saved, we first think it was because we decided to follow Christ. Yet as we come to understand our sin and God's greatness, we realize we would never have chosen to follow Him unless He had first placed the desire within us. This illustration accurately describes what the Bible communicates regarding our human role in salvation. We are saved by God's grace upon us that leads us to place our faith in Him.

Faith is not a work because it is something God must do within us. On our own, we are sinful and would never choose Christ apart from His leading us to Himself. In fact, when we realize the extent to which God has worked to freely offer us salvation, we realize we can take no credit for our salvation. It is only because of Him.

First, God's love is the initiator: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

Second, Jesus is the author of our faith: "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2). Christ provides the opportunity for salvation and then offers it to us personally. Without Him, we would not have an option for salvation (Acts 4:12).

Third, we are saved for good works, not by good works: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

Believing is not a work, but a response to what God is doing in our lives. No one is righteous (Romans 3:10). We are not saved by works we have done (Titus 3:5). Only Christ can save.

We may not completely understand the full distinction between our faith response and God's salvation in our lives. However, it is clear in Scripture that salvation is not something we earn by any work yet we must trust in Him by faith. Perhaps the analogy of a gift found in Ephesians 2:8-9 best expresses this idea: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Work is contrasted with a gift.

When we receive a gift, we do not consider it "work" to open the gift. What we have received is free. We simply need to open it to enjoy it. The same is true of salvation. It is a gift God freely offers. We need not work to earn it. Rather, we only need to receive it. When we do, we experience joy and desire to share this joy with others.

 

[dodge]

Paul preached the revelation given him by Jesus Christ;

Galatians 1:11-13 New International Version (NIV)

Paul Called by God
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

Which of course Jesus had already taught. Granted it was hidden until God wanted it revealed, but Paul preached NOTHING NEW.

Jhn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

 

[Bright Raven]

Which of course Jesus had already taught. Granted it was hidden until God wanted it revealed, but Paul preached NOTHING NEW.

Jhn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

You are taking the passage out of context. Get it right.

John 2:19-22 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[dodge]

You are taking the passage out of context. Get it right.

John 2:19-22 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

I took Nothing out of context ! Jesus said destroy my body and in 3 days I will raise raise it up, and why did Jesus allow Himself to be crucified ? Payment for sin. So again Paul preached NOTHING that Jesus had not already taught.

Luk 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Dying for our sins was not a main ingredient of Jesus' message. Its importance has been inflated to hook people into feeling guilty for not accepting their sinfulness and needing Jesus to save them. This is a manipulation tactic of the enemy which gets its power from fear and fear does not come from God. The reason we hold so tight to Jesus is not because of love. It's because we fear facing the infinite and eternal spaciousness when letting go. That spaciousness is a part of us often rejected in favor of the easier and more convenient interpretation of Jesus dying for our sins. We are encouraging avoidance of our infinite and eternal God and we don't even know it.

 

[Ben Masada]

At stake is the very essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ - the 'good news'. If one's theology limits Christ's atonement to an 'elect', then is not the very Word eviscerated?

Romans 5:6-8
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

If someone has died for me then it demands a response. But if I am told that I may have been left out - that only certain individuals might be the beneficiaries, then the reaction will be quite different.

Sonnet, You do believe that Jesus was a Jew, don't you? If your reply is "yes", his Faith was Judaism and not Christianity. Do you agree? I am sure you do. If his Faith was Judaism, it is only obvious that his Bible was the Tanach. In that case, he could not have died for the sins of all people because the Prophets of the Most High teach that no one can die for the sins of another. If you don't believe what I am saying, you can read it from Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20. So, the answer is "no". Jesus did not die for our sins. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[Bright Raven]

I took Nothing out of context ! Jesus said destroy my body and in 3 days I will raise raise it up, and why did Jesus allow Himself to be crucified ? Payment for sin. So again Paul preached NOTHING that Jesus had not already taught.

Luk 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The disciples did not understand what he said. The twelve did not preach the cross. Supply scripture.