Death

[Dartman]

You seem to believe a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent God, can create something that is less than perfect?

Of course. He can create anything He wants. What He wants are, sons and daughters, that CHOOSE Him. .... even when they are tempted to choose other things. He wants sons and daughters that will believe Him, and love Him for what He has given, and for what He has promised.

Which would you rather have, a friend that is PROGRAMMED to always respond with affection toward you ..... or a person who CHOOSES to count you as their friend, in spite of times you disagree?

 

[Dartman]

Jesus has NOT defeated the last enemy "death" yet. The fact that Jehovah/YHVH God resurrected Jesus FROM the dead, to immortal life, PROVES that death WILL BE ultimately defeated .... but it hasn't happened yet.

"but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death"2 Timothy 1:10

Good verse! And, it APPEARS to contradict 1 Cor 15:24-28, and Rev 20:14, and Rev 21:4, and Rom 8:23-25 .... and others.

So, how would you explain this?

 

[comingfrom]

So you seem to think that the physical death of Jesus was required for our salvation..... But it does not seem that you understand why the cross was necessary. It is clear from scripture that the purpose of the cross was not to prove the deity of Jesus.

Then said Jesus unto His disciples,
If any man will come after Me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Matthew 16:24

Scripture tells us that shed blood / death is the penalty for sin. Part of the penalty we pay for first Adam's sin (and, our own sin) is physical death. (Romans 5 doctrine of imputation) Death entered our world because of sin. Genesis 2:16,17. Without shedding of blood (physical death) there is no forgiveness of sin. Hebrews 9:22 So... our penalty is physical death... dying in our sinful state and eternally separated from God. However, a mediator stepped in, and took our punishment. There was only one possible mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. 2 Tim.2:5,6 There was no other way for our salvation other than "last Adam", our mediator, suffering physical death on our behalf then defeating death in the resurrection... in which we are invited to partake in. 1 Cor.15

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51

Bless Jesus.

 

[6days]

Then said Jesus unto His disciples,
If any man will come after Me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Matthew 16:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51
Bless Jesus.

Answering with scripture is great...but random verses without context or comment is silly. Your answers might be better if you could explain how the verse answers the question. But the two versus you just posted don't say anything, about why the physical death of Jesus was necessary.

 

[6days]

Good verse! And, it APPEARS to contradict 1 Cor 15:24-28, and Rev 20:14, and Rev 21:4, and Rom 8:23-25 .... and others.

So, how would you explain this?

Of course God's Word cannot be contradictory. Jesus has defeated death with His resurrection. However we still live in a sin cursed world, where we still have pain, suffering and death. Because Jesus defeated death, we also will be physically resurrected.

 

[Dartman]

Of course God's Word cannot be contradictory. Jesus has defeated death with His resurrection. However we still live in a sin cursed world, where we still have pain, suffering and death. Because Jesus defeated death, we also will be physically resurrected.

We are VERY close to unity on this issue.
God's word cannot be contradictory.
Jesus' resurrection to immortality by his God did several things, one of which is defeated death for Jesus. A second thing accomplished when Jehovah/YHVH God resurrected Jesus is, absolute PROOF death can/will be defeated! And the rest of your post I would word the same...:up:

 

[comingfrom]

Answering with scripture is great...but random verses without context or comment is silly. Your answers might be better if you could explain how the verse answers the question. But the two versus you just posted don't say anything, about why the physical death of Jesus was necessary.

Thank you.

You asked if I understood the cross, I put the verse that you may understand
and I have picked up my cross to follow Jesus to do the Father's work.

Then you put a paragraph that contained the word "death" 8 times,
asking id I can see why death is so important,
and I put the verse that shows we shall never death, if we keep His saying.

Jesus is alive today. Isn't He?
I put more importance on coming to stand before Him, than on His death.
One can chant death, death, death all they like,
their sins will only be atoned when they heed His words and come stand before Him.
Yes?

 

[6days]

Jesus is alive today. Isn't He?I put more importance on coming to stand before Him, than on His death.
One can chant death, death, death all they like,
their sins will only be atoned when they heed His words and come stand before Him. Yes?

Yes...a person can be a Christian without understanding why the cross was necessary.

 

[6days]

Of course. He can create anything He wants. What He wants are, sons and daughters, that CHOOSE Him. .... even when they are tempted to choose other things. He wants sons and daughters that will believe Him, and love Him for what He has given, and for what He has promised.

Si !

Which would you rather have, a friend that is PROGRAMMED to always respond with affection toward you ..... or a person who CHOOSES to count you as their friend, in spite of times you disagree?

Love always involves choice.... But, not sure how that answers why Jesus had to go to the cross.

 

[comingfrom]

Yes...a person can be a Christian without understanding why the cross was necessary.

Do you want my understanding of the cross?
Of course, I went through all the hoops of understanding the cross.
All the arguments with Christians, for believing in Jesus' words,
rather than in the cross, and in His death, as they say to.

Most people don't even distinguish between Jesus' cross
and the Roman cross He was hung upon,
so it is all confusing to the newbie.
All that seems important to those with "understanding" is that Jesus died for them,
so much so, they often forget to mention that He rose again.
And that He is alive for us, right now.

There aren't many men in History who didn't die,
and a lot were crucified by the Romans, and by others.
So how will just believing these things about Jesus save you?

And the crucifix was government property.
Belonged to Julius Caesar.
Is an implement of torture unto death.
Was the instrument used to kill out Lord Jesus.

Jesus' cross, on the other hand, was to do the works of the Father.
He laid down His life well before He was crucified, to keep the commandments,
to love us according as God commanded,
and that's why the Pharisees and High Priests had to do away with Him.
So He died for their sins. They were the sinners that murdered Him.

But He rose again.
And this was so men might know He was sent by God,
and that they might believe in Him, and henceforth keep His words.

So I believe in Him, the things that spoke, and not in the preaching of the cross.
Crosses are wooden, and cannot preach.
But men make the cross into an image for us to worship.

Sanctify the Lord.

 

[6days]

Do you want my understanding of the cross?

The question was actually why the cross (physical death of Jesus) was necessary for our salvation. So far you have demonstrated that you don't have an understanding. Your answer up to this point has been that it helps to convince us he is God. Your answer is not Biblical.

All that seems important to those with "understanding" is that Jesus died for them,
so much so, they often forget to mention that He rose again. And that He is alive for us, right now.

Again...Why did Jesus have to die? Or, do you think He could have saved us without physical death (and the resurrection of course).

So He died for their sins. They were the sinners that murdered Him.

Ok... Great! (Yes it was our sin that put him on the cross) You may be getting closer to the answer now.. Same question though... Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive our sin?

Why did the Son have to die, in order for the Father to forgive us? Was the cross just foolishness? If God loves us so much why couldn't he just forgive us?

So I believe in Him, the things that spoke, and not in the preaching of the cross.

1 Cor 1 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.....but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

 

[comingfrom]

Thank you, 6days.

The question was actually why the cross (physical death of Jesus) was necessary for our salvation. So far you have demonstrated that you don't have an understanding. Your answer up to this point has been that it helps to convince us he is God. Your answer is not Biblical.

Turning my heart to keep all the commandments is what was necessary for me to get Jesus to manifest Himself to me.
And doing the law unto the end is what was required for me to be saved.

Here is the Biblical.

He that hath My commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves Me:
and he that loves Me shall be loved of My Father,
and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.
John 15:14

And he that overcomes, and keeps My works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:26

Again...Why did Jesus have to die? Or, do you think He could have saved us without physical death (and the resurrection of course).

I believe every man has to die,
except for Jesus, for He is immortal.

Men have to listen to His words, and do them, to be saved.

But he that hears, and does not,
is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth;
against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell;
and the ruin of that house was great.
Luke 6:49

Same question though... Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive our sin?

Same question same answer... one has to make an acceptable offering to be forgiven.
If a man doesn't repent, he won't be forgiven.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Why did the Son have to die, in order for the Father to forgive us? Was the cross just foolishness? If God loves us so much why couldn't he just forgive us?

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin:
but now they have no cloke for their sin.
...
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin:
but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My Father.
John 15:22 & 24

If you believe Jesus, men were without sin before He came.
Now we can compare what they say, to what He spoke,
and they cannot hide their sin.

1 Cor 1 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.....but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

I teach the commandments,
and offer up His words, for remembrance of Him,
and praise Him. My Lord and Saviour.

Remember the word that I said unto you,
The servant is not greater than his lord.
If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you;
if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.
John 15:20

Praise Jesus.
The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[Right Divider]

Thank you, 6days.

Turning my heart to keep all the commandments is what was necessary for me to get Jesus to manifest Himself to me.
And doing the law unto the end is what was required for me to be saved.

Here is the Biblical.

He that hath My commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves Me:
and he that loves Me shall be loved of My Father,
and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.
John 15:14

And he that overcomes, and keeps My works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:26

I believe every man has to die,
except for Jesus, for He is immortal.

Men have to listen to His words, and do them, to be saved.

But he that hears, and does not,
is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth;
against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell;
and the ruin of that house was great.
Luke 6:49

Same question same answer... one has to make an acceptable offering to be forgiven.
If a man doesn't repent, he won't be forgiven.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin:
but now they have no cloke for their sin.
...
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin:
but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My Father.
John 15:22 & 24

If you believe Jesus, men were without sin before He came.
Now we can compare what they say, to what He spoke,
and they cannot hide their sin.

I teach the commandments,
and offer up His words, for remembrance of Him,
and praise Him. My Lord and Saviour.

Remember the word that I said unto you,
The servant is not greater than his lord.
If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you;
if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.
John 15:20

Praise Jesus.
The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Everything that you are quoting is from a time when Jesus Himself said that He came only to Israel.

Israel has been temporarily set aside and God raised up another apostle with new revelation.

It's too bad that you cannot understand what God is doing.

 

[6days]

It's too bad that you (@comingfrom) cannot understand what God is doing.

He / she also seems to have no idea why Christ had to die and be resurrected in order that we might be saved.

 

[Right Divider]

I believe every man has to die,except for Jesus, for He is immortal.

He / she also seems to have no idea why Christ had to die and be resurrected in order that we might be saved.

It seems like comingfrom has bigger problems than that.

 

[comingfrom]

Thank you Divider.

I know what you are saying because so many came before you, to tell me these things.
I chose to be among the remnant of Israel.

Everything that you are quoting is from a time when Jesus Himself said that He came only to Israel.

According to the word in my Bible, Israel is God's people.

Hear, O heavens,
and give ear, O earth:
for the LORD hath spoken,
I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against Me.
The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib:
but Israel doth not know, My people do not consider.
Isaiah 1:2

Israel has been temporarily set aside and God raised up another apostle with new revelation.

The kingdom of God, the land of Israel, is at hand.

The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isaiah 10:21

It's too bad that you cannot understand what God is doing.

It is too bad that you can only insinuate.

If you could have offered up a sound reproof, then I might have been corrected.

And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob,
shall no more again stay upon him that smote them;
but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isaiah 10:20

 

[Right Divider]

Thank you Divider.

I know what you are saying because so many came before you, to tell me these things.
I chose to be among the remnant of Israel.

:rotfl:

You could chose to be a banana if you want. That's doesn't turn fiction into fact.

According to the word in my Bible, Israel is God's people.

Hear, O heavens,
and give ear, O earth:
for the LORD hath spoken,
I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against Me.
The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib:
but Israel doth not know, My people do not consider.
Isaiah 1:2

Israel was chosen to be God's people on the earth. The body of Christ is something completely different.

Israel is presently fallen.... you need to join the body today.

Israel will be restored some day.... until then it's the body or nothing.

 

[comingfrom]

You could chose to be a banana if you want. That's doesn't turn fiction into fact.

When the saints
come marching in
I want to be in that number
when the saints come marching in.

Maybe you would choose to be a banana.

Israel was chosen to be God's people on the earth. The body of Christ is something completely different.

That's why I chose Israel.
Israel is God's people on earth, but the body of Christ is that which God's people eat.

Israel is presently fallen.... you need to joint the body today.

And that's why I chose to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood.

Joining a church never saved anybody.
And I don't believe following the many to wave the cross and chanting "Jesus died for us" did either.

Israel will be restored some day.... until then it's the body or nothing.

Salvation is of the Jews.

And Jesus outlined "it" neatly for us way back in Moses' day.

And it shall come to pass,
when all these things are come upon thee,
the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee,
and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
and shalt return unto the LORD thy God,
and shalt obey His voice according to all that I command thee this day,
thou and thy children,
with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee,
and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deuteronomy 30:1-3

 

[Right Divider]

When the saints
come marching in
I want to be in that number
when the saints come marching in.

Maybe you would choose to be a banana.

You completely missed my point, as I expected that you probably would.

That's why I chose Israel.
Israel is God's people on earth, but the body of Christ is that which God's people eat.

Ah... a Romanist.... makes sense.

And that's why I chose to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood.

Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

Joining a church never saved anybody.

Unless it's joining the church which is His body.

And I don't believe following the many to wave the cross and chanting "Jesus died for us" did either.

If Jesus didn't die for you, you are in deep trouble.

Salvation is of the Jews.

It was, until God revealed more ...

 

[comingfrom]

You completely missed my point, as I expected that you probably would.

You should have expected it,
after you first deliberately missed the point I was making.
And I know you know it, because I added the scripture, which you know.
Here is another.

And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them;
He shined forth from mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of saints:
from His right hand went a fiery law for them.
Deuteronomy 33:2

Ah... a Romanist.... makes sense.

Ah, leap to a false presumption.

The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few:
pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth labourers into His harvest.
Luke 10:2

Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

So I looked for what the metaphor means,
that I fulfil what Jesus was speaking,
that there might be His everlasting life in me.

Jesus said unto them,
My meat is to do the will of Him that sent Me, and to finish His work.
John 4:34

And I know that His commandment is life everlasting:
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 12:50

Unless it's joining the church which is His body.

Every Church out their claims they are His body.
And they all want you to eat their flesh.
Don't they?

Ye shall eat no manner of fat,
of ox, or of sheep, or of goat.
And the fat of the beast that dies of itself,
and the fat of that which is torn with beasts,
may be used in any other use: but ye shall in no wise eat of it.
For whosoever eats the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD,
even the soul that eats it shall be cut off from His people.
Leviticus 7:23-25

If Jesus didn't die for you, you are in deep trouble.

Jesus is alive for me.
My troubles are a distant memory.
I came out of the tribulation years ago.

He which testifies these things says, Surely I come quickly.
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Revelation 22:20

It was, until God revealed more ...

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God:
but those things which are revealed belong unto us
and to our children for ever,
that we may do all the words of this law.
Deuteronomy 29:29

If you would look into the law, with a circumcised heart,
it would be a revelation for you.

Bless Jesus