But God's wrath and tribulation are two things clear different....
Theology Club: Darby On Romans 1-3 & 9-11
- Thread starter Danoh
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Not so fast; if you are going to assert Darby ripped off his Pre-Trib Rapture from the Irvingites, you should provide evidence.
I'm sure you'd want the same towards you.
Just as I'm also sure you well know there are a lies upon lies out there by many who are against Dispensationalism in general, and the Pre-Trib Rapture in particular.
Not a one of them has ever been able to prove a thing and all they do is parrot one another's lies.
On pages 15, 63, 88, 138, etc., in that book I quoted (Precious Truths), a very thorough history on the development of Darby's understandings relates from his notes, from his letters to letters, from booklets he published that Darby understood the Pre-Trib Rapture some three years before MacDonald began experiencing her supposed visions.
Here is that book - pages 10-15 alone offer an impressive, first hand glimpse of who this mighty Bible student - John Nelson Darby had really been like as a Bible student like few in recorded history:
http://www.presenttruthpublishers.com/pdf/Precious_Truths_v1_2nd_ed.pdf
Your turn, provide some evidence of your assertion.
Thanks
The pretrib rap is an entirely different subject to dispensationalism, there are many more dispys who hold to post trib than pretrib.
Dispensationalism is not Mid Acts Dispenasationalism per se. MAD is hyper dispy.
The historic facts are that from ancient times very few theobogies differed in believing and teaching Post trib.
Pretrib rapture in the 19th century was a major departure [no pun intended] from orthodoxy. It can be traced to Irving....you do not know the whole story of Darby for he certainly was devious and he is suspected to have revised earlier works to make it seem as though he had always held pretrib views.
Darby was bent on making himself distinct.
His theology was dismissed by British thelogians so he took it to America and teamed up with Schofield....another devious character.
Darby did not invent Dispensationalism as is claimed, he did not even invent the pretrib rap...but he brought it to prominence.
Again I say to you the key to understanding Darby will be found in the Bethesda debacle...his behaviour was atrocious.
But and yet his works in other matters stand up, he was a brilliant theologian.......
Your assertions reveal the same error such assertions always reveal - an over-reliance on the words of men about other men and or their guessed at supposed origin of another's assertions.
Personally, I don't mind the Hyper label as I do get rather excited when in the Word studying one distinction out or another :chuckle:
I know that is not what you meant by that label, but as I have just noted, I'm not overly impressed by those whose learning is obviously the result of an over-reliance on books about this, that, the other, which the notions of which they then read into all things.
In this, "the historic" this, that, the other, is about as 100% reliable to me as trumped up (even now) history of the Native American, and other tall tales the victors in any history are prone to rewrite their own favor.
In this any believer who over-relies on that kind of a thing is a fool through and through.
If that does not challenge you to consider the possible wisdom of my words on this route of yours, but instead breaks what rapport we have had thus far, than so be it.
Post-Trib is not Dispensational. Period. In its confusion of Peter's Acts 3 Prophesied, Law Based, Conditional Second Advent preaching to Israel as being one and the same as Paul's Pre-Second Advent Mystery Rapture teaching, it denies the Body's total and Complete sufficiency in Christ that is Romans 5; Romans 8, etc.
The ball is in your court; bounce it back well, "for we must all appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ," 2 Cor. 5:10-11; 1 Cor. 3:10-23.
You talk about books dear friend but you didn't read such words as "Prophesied, Law Based, Conditional Second Advent or Pre-Second Advent Mystery Rapture Teaching" in the bible.
You are entrenched, I have long since given up trying to persuade entrenched people...it is better to stay friends...whichever one of us is wrong will find out soon enough...for we are approaching the time for these things.
Paul said we are saved from God's wrath, but we are saved through much tribulation.
Our experience as Christians will be VERY different if we do go through the great trib than if we don't....very different.
You are entrenched, I have long since given up trying to persuade entrenched people...it is better to stay friends...whichever one of us is wrong will find out soon enough...for we are approaching the time for these things.
Paul said we are saved from God's wrath, but we are saved through much tribulation.
Our experience as Christians will be VERY different if we do go through the great trib than if we don't....very different.
Totten, you have just proven my point. You have concluded because you have gotten waht you have out of books, that I have also.
Prophesied Peter's Acts 3 preaching is 1 Peter's/ Israel's Prophesied Grace:
10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
13. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Law Based, Conditional - Deuteronomy 19:
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And the rest of those words I posted in bold are of the same origin... depends on what we leave behind in the books of men, that we might actually study a thing out in, and through, the Word, on its things.
....I used to contest these interpretations....
glorydaz
Well-known member
I did, too. I went through pre, then mid, then post, then back through each one again. I think what Danoh has been sharing (along with a better understanding of who Revelation is talking about) has helped me to see the body will be taken up to meet our Lord in the air before the "great tribulation".
I really hope you two will continue discussing this....you're both well suited for what it will take to make some headway on this topic.
We are too far apart, I have to bear in mind that I am guesting in the MAD club
Pre-Trib is not based on "see, here it is; in this one passage," anymore then Jesus attributes and qualities as evidence that He was the Christ "whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write," of, John 1:45, were based on any one passage alone.
This principle is evident throughout the Lord's questions to His own throughout His earthly ministry "unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matt. 15:24.
His is is actually a principle by which distinctions between things are studied out and or discerned - the characteristics and or qualities inherent in a thing overall that makes them distinct.
Without that, one can supposedly "rightly divide" all one wants and yet nit see what is right in front of them, as happened with Israel.
Just look at the grief that kind of a failure brings the Son - Luke 19:
41. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42. Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44. And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
He was so broken hearted because they had not known the characteristics and or qualities His every word and or action had been a sign of the times about.
Pre-Trib is the same way - it is those Characteristics and Qualities behind why it is Pre-Trib even to begin with that its naysayers fail to study out the qualities and characteristics of, and this, in the passages about said qualities and characteristics.
And they fail to because their over-reliance on their endless books "about" this, that, the other by parrots parroting the same old same old, has corroded their ability go back to the simplicity that studying these things out actually involves.
What had been the Characteristics and Qualities of Israel's first "time of your visitation"?
Luke 7:
19. And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20. When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21. And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22. Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Study out Pre-Trib from this Characteristics and Qualities as to why even a Pre-Trib Rapture to begin with, principle.
glorydaz
Well-known member
We are too far apart, I have to bear in mind that I am guesting in the MAD club
A couple of little tweaks would bring us closer than you might think.
They are small nuances to be sure but the divide caused by them is massive, it really is.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Bigger to some than to others, I would say. I imagine that will change as we approach the end. The closer I get to my own end, the smaller that divide seems. There is this side and the other side of the great divide.
what does it say ?
It says
Peter, James and John are not the Joos who will inherit the land, the twelve, the Jews who recieved the Messiah...they's the church we's with them in heaven, mebbe the 12 will be on 12 thrones judging the tribes but they are heavenly thrones. They will reign with Christ from heaven through Jerusalem which will be capital of the world.
It is ETHNIC Israel who inherit the land....the nation of Israel, the Israel that now is. The seed of Abraham. Israel will be the only super power and the restoration of all things will flow from Jerusalem as the nations flock to it to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.
Peter, James and John are not the Joos who will inherit the land, the twelve, the Jews who recieved the Messiah...they's the church we's with them in heaven, mebbe the 12 will be on 12 thrones judging the tribes but they are heavenly thrones. They will reign with Christ from heaven through Jerusalem which will be capital of the world.
It is ETHNIC Israel who inherit the land....the nation of Israel, the Israel that now is. The seed of Abraham. Israel will be the only super power and the restoration of all things will flow from Jerusalem as the nations flock to it to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.
You have asserted much in all your above posts, Totten, but where are the passages said assertions are based on for you, that we might explore them together; compare notes, etc?
Consider also, that there is only division between people not when they differ in understandings, but when they insist on indifference towards one another as if both are one and the same thing.
Personally, I find that very revealing of where people really are (I include myself), in contrast to where even they them selves might often believe they are in their spiritual maturity.
So, no, Totten, its not the the things that differ in Scripture, rather; it is those individuals who allow whatever their particular, personal, unresolved issue happens to be, to arise out of them to corrupt differences in understandings into the service of said unresolved issue.
As for your above quote; consider that it actually illustrates an important distinction we must at some point solve for if we are to move forward.
That being that until we come to agreement on certain understandings other understandings are actually based on, we will continue to go back and forth to no avail as to clarity on these other understandings.
Case in point - compare Deut. 4 with Daniel 9’s prayer; Isaiah 4; Malachi 3; Matt. 24; and Luke 21: see if you still hold to the error that The Tribulation (not everyday trials and tribulation rather; The Tribulation) of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 is not the LORD’S Great Day of His wrath upon Israel.
These issues are all a matter of the proper ground work (establishing) having been laid out or firmly established and in place first before one allows one self to proceed to attempt study out and or sort other things.
The latter things often being based on prior ones.
This is a key component to properly understanding many things, including the Pre-Trib Rapture's actual basis.
Thus, while there are all sorts of people going on about this or that, or what have you; the means for actually solving for these things and or their actual origins; the means behind being able to properly sort them out; continues out of the picture.
Questions like 'who cares who said what; when? What does the Scripture affirm?'
And questions like 'now, how might I myself go about ensuring I don't end up at, and or reading my own notions into a thing as to what I am reading - what principles might avoiding that kind of a thing involve?'
You assert that "God's wrath and tribulation are two things clear different...."
I ask 'Nevertheless what saith the Scripture - are there passages that are clear on this, or some aspect of it?'
'If the sum of a thing equals (is comprised of) its parts, what might those be? And where in Scripture might I seek those out?'
'And where a thing is not asserted out right; might it be the case, or not, that it is actually the result of other parts which, together, are it's actual basis?'
Again, thank you for your exchange...
we are saved from God's wrath but we are saved through much tribulation
When Herod heard about the Christ child he was "troubled" and all Jerusalem with him.
This word trouble is tribulation and the result of it is persecution. It is the time of "Jacob's trouble" this IS the great tribulation. As the great humble john w once pointed out you have to go back to the story of Jacob and see what his trouble amounted to.
Was it not when he was fleeing Laban? when behind him was Laban and before him Esau? Fleeing from one terror into the jaws of another [for all he knew] Jacob was not aware that Esau had been pacified toward him, he was made aware that betwixt him and Laban was the heavenly host...Jacob had no reason to be terrified.
Nor do the Jews for the promise is that in that time of tribulation such as was never before nor shall be again...God is going to deliver Israel. But until the catching up of the church we will still be among the nations...in the thick of the trib.
But God's wrath will fall upon the nations
When Herod heard about the Christ child he was "troubled" and all Jerusalem with him.
This word trouble is tribulation and the result of it is persecution. It is the time of "Jacob's trouble" this IS the great tribulation. As the great humble john w once pointed out you have to go back to the story of Jacob and see what his trouble amounted to.
Was it not when he was fleeing Laban? when behind him was Laban and before him Esau? Fleeing from one terror into the jaws of another [for all he knew] Jacob was not aware that Esau had been pacified toward him, he was made aware that betwixt him and Laban was the heavenly host...Jacob had no reason to be terrified.
Nor do the Jews for the promise is that in that time of tribulation such as was never before nor shall be again...God is going to deliver Israel. But until the catching up of the church we will still be among the nations...in the thick of the trib.
But God's wrath will fall upon the nations
We remain at odds in our understanding of these things...
1st Advent - Isaiah 60:
1. Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2nd Advent:
2. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
1st Advent - Malachi 3:
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2nd Advent:
2. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Matthew 3:
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
How is this fleeing accomplished as to Israel?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
ddddDanoh
Do you accept that there is a parenthesis, that is a gap between our Lord's first coming and His second?
A gap when all He began to teach and to do with Israel was interrupted and put on hold? see it is this parenthesis which make both Paul an the 12 to be in perfect accord. The 12 will be proved correct in their time
But it is beyond dispensationalism and into hyper dispy to think that the 12 and the jewish church themselves are part of the parenthesis
They are part of the regeneration
You did notice that in the earth everywhere is thick darkness [tribulation] but in Israel the glory of the Lord shall be upon you.
In dealing with the Jewish leaders remember they were cronies to the Romans....
Do you accept that there is a parenthesis, that is a gap between our Lord's first coming and His second?
A gap when all He began to teach and to do with Israel was interrupted and put on hold? see it is this parenthesis which make both Paul an the 12 to be in perfect accord. The 12 will be proved correct in their time
But it is beyond dispensationalism and into hyper dispy to think that the 12 and the jewish church themselves are part of the parenthesis
They are part of the regeneration
You did notice that in the earth everywhere is thick darkness [tribulation] but in Israel the glory of the Lord shall be upon you.
In dealing with the Jewish leaders remember they were cronies to the Romans....
pretty big car window !