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Creationist are losing the battle in the world wide hysteria over covid-19.

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Countless technologies and inventions were enabled by...Kelvin...But they're all on OUR creationism list.

If Lord Kelvin was a creationist, then so am I.

The fact of the matter is that Kelvin accepted Darwin's theory of evolution with the caveat that evolution took place over a few 10s of millions of years, rather than Darwin's 100s of millions of years +, and that evolution was guided by the hand of God. In other words, Kelvin was a theistic evolutionist.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thomson,_1st_Baron_Kelvin#Age_of_the_Earth:_geology
 

7djengo7

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I'm afraid it's much worse than that. I would amend Dobzhansky's statement to say, "Nothing in all of modern science makes sense except in the light of evolution."

At least you admit, here, that the nonsense you call "evolution" is not science. You're saying that science does not make sense, and that you need something that is not science--i.e., the nonsense you call "evolution"--to make sense of science.

One of the following is what you are saying. So, which do you want to say it is?
  1. "Nothing in all of modern science makes sense except in the light of [science]."
  2. "Nothing in all of modern science makes sense except in the light of [non-science]."
 

Clete

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First Covid killing old people . . . Just as you quoted the Bible, Everybody "surely" dies. The only bad death is an unprepared one, so be prepared. The flu coincidentally or by design just happens to provide us with time, in our old age, to be prepared for dying . . . pretty cool.

To your exact question, RE: Covid-19 "What's good about it ?" You have to die of something, are you saying that dying of the flu is worse than dying from cancer? Or dying in a plane crash? Or dying in a fire? Or dying form a gunshot? How about dying from liver failure? I am not sure what your point is since we are all going to die. Are you saying that dying from the flu is the worst way to die?

Also, are you saying we know everything about all the millions of viruses? Like do we know how they interact within healthy people to perhaps make them stronger? Do we know how viruses interact with all the different strains of bacteria? Do we know how viruses affect our children who never die from the flu?

Question for you: is it possible that we just might discover, some day, that viruses are indeed all good? Or are you all knowing? Wow, I have an idea, what not stop beating the dead horse of evolution and study why viruses are good! Then, as we find good viruses (which there are many), those creationist could go and tell others and they might believe that creation and the Creator are good!

It use to be that people died of old age, but no longer, in the blame game era, something has to be the cause death, it just can't be old age. You don't get any money if you die from natural causes, in fact there is no such thing as a natural cause of death any longer, as people no longer believe that you are "surely" going to die . . . and hey . . . natural causes, you don't qualify for a check.

If Adam would have lived in our time and died yesterday, his death, would of course be from covid-19 . . . that way Eve would have gotten a nice settlement from uncle Ed :)

Where do viruses come from?

If God didn't create the corona virus, who did? Did it create itself or is it eternal? Did our immune system create itself as well? Are you saying China created it? LOL

In the history of mankind, we have created only one pathogen, care to name it? It is good for brownie points :) (Clue, we created it unintentionally in hospitals)

If man could create a pathogen that would kill all men, we would not be here. LOL

Next, Adam's curse.

Adam died at a very old age, 9 times longer then we live today and I agree that the curse may have or did shorten his life. So what shortened our lives down to 10 percent of what Adam lived? Did God add an additional curse without letting us know the specifics? Or was it something that God saw that would happen as the result of the flood? I believe the latter is far more likely. But the far more important thing is, is it a good or bad thing that men's lives have been shortened? And the answer to that, in my opinion, is a no-brainer, YES Looking back on it, I will bet that Adam thought living for a 1000 years was more a curse than having to work for food. LOL

So, in your desire to defend COVID 19 as a good thing, you've been reduced to touting death as a good thing.

Wow! That's really brilliant!

Tell me again who's losing the debate?!
 

tieman55

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So, in your desire to defend COVID 19 as a good thing, you've been reduced to touting death as a good thing.

Wow! That's really brilliant!

Tell me again who's losing the debate?!

Yes, I am saying death, in context, is a just fine.

Let me first quote Kevin Costner in "Open Range", great movie . . . the bar scene where Costner is talking to two freighters, who were timid about taking up arms against the corrupt sheriff. Costner says. . . "Your men ain't ya? . . . Well, I don't know if you know this or not, but there are things that can gnaw at a man worse than death!" Great scene because it is so true.

Christian's, generally,, are taught that there was no death before the fall of man, but that is a figure of speech. God didn't create death but when He created life, death was also going to be a part of life. So yes I am defending death as part of life and I am further defending a person who is prepared to die as a good part of life.

In 2014 the National Safety Counsel said 136,000 people died "accidentally" in the USA.

Now I know this is going to be hard but try thinking seriously about whether or not accidents were part of God's curse?
Or, did/could accidents happen before the curse, before the fall of man? You have answer that question and settle it in your mind, one way or the other.

Again, this is going to be hard for you, so please think about it . . . . Death was not part of the curse (ouch that hurt didn't it?), as life and or the possibility of death existed before the curse. The curse was only you will "surly die", not maybe, not possibly, surly die. Adam, had he not eaten from the tree, could have still died in many ways, it just wasn't assured, until he ate from the tree. Adam was a man, not a super man. LOL

As to the debate: Creationist could easily win the debate, if they surely were convinced that God's creation was/is good and choose to defend what God has made. And as far as who is losing the debate, well at this moment that would be you :(
 

Clete

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Yes, I am saying death, in context, is a just fine.

Let me first quote Kevin Costner in "Open Range", great movie . . . the bar scene where Costner is talking to two freighters, who were timid about taking up arms against the corrupt sheriff. Costner says. . . "Your men ain't ya? . . . Well, I don't know if you know this or not, but there are things that can gnaw at a man worse than death!" Great scene because it is so true.

Christian's, generally,, are taught that there was no death before the fall of man, but that is a figure of speech. God didn't create death but when He created life, death was also going to be a part of life. So yes I am defending death as part of life and I am further defending a person who is prepared to die as a good part of life.

In 2014 the National Safety Counsel said 136,000 people died "accidentally" in the USA.

Now I know this is going to be hard but try thinking seriously about whether or not accidents were part of God's curse?
Or, did/could accidents happen before the curse, before the fall of man? You have answer that question and settle it in your mind, one way or the other.

Again, this is going to be hard for you, so please think about it . . . . Death was not part of the curse (ouch that hurt didn't it?), as life and or the possibility of death existed before the curse. The curse was only you will "surly die", not maybe, not possibly, surly die. Adam, had he not eaten from the tree, could have still died in many ways, it just wasn't assured, until he ate from the tree. Adam was a man, not a super man. LOL

As to the debate: Creationist could easily win the debate, if they surely were convinced that God's creation was/is good and choose to defend what God has made. And as far as who is losing the debate, well at this moment that would be you :(

Accidents are not part of the curse, dying because of them is.
 

tieman55

New member
Accidents are not part of the curse, dying because of them is.

I don't recall God saying to Adam, you can't die. I guess I missed that in the Bible, please quote that verse for me.

The only verse I recall was, is, "you will surly die" if you eat from the tree of knowledge. So your saying that scripture means, Adam you can't die, if you don't eat.

So, your saying Adam was indeed superman before the fall . . . I don't think so.

Could God have said, "Adam you can't die if you don't eat from the tree of Knowledge"? God could have said that, if that is what He meant. Maybe your wrong about what God meant?

Your right, accidents do happen: So, before the fall, Adam was not told he couldn't climb the tree of knowledge. So what if he climbs up the tree, higher and higher and then Adam slips and falls . . . . he lands on a rock and he head splits open, his neck breaks, his arm is in three pieces, so again how exactly does he not die? What if he can't make it to the Tree of life? What if his mouth is not working and he can't eat from the tree of life? Does the tree of life do surgery? Does the tree of life have a set of paddles to restart his heart? Explain the mechanics of how Adam is cured? What if Adam doesn't want the help? What if Adam cuts himself and is far away from the tree of life, and he can't make it back, then what?

No change all of that, Adam falls off the tree hits a rock and rolls into the fast moving river and the river carries him off, how exactly does he not die after that series of accidents?

So, after you torture yourself into an elaborate scheme of events where he doesn't die, then what happens once Adam finds out he can't die? If fact, Adam would very quickly figure out he can't die. Then what?? . . . . that world view, your world view is untenable.

"You will surly die" is perfect language, perfect, and is exactly what God said and meant.

Did anything before the fall die? How about bugs like fly's, fly's multiply by the millions in just a few days, were they also going to live for ever? What if Adam stepped on a fly, did it die? What if flies are landing on Adam face, and he gets frustrated and smacks one to death before man's fall? Does it die? How about Adam stubs his toe, (is that allowed before the fall?) and breaks a toe nail, millions human cells die in the process. Or are those super cells that also can't die? There is far more unseen life than seen life, did any microscopic life die before the fall?

There are at least two men, that lived long after the fall, that never died, so all men don't surely die. God told Adam and only Adam that "you will surely die" if you eat from the tree and 1000 years after eating from the tree, he surely did die.
 

tieman55

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That is ridiculous.

Which part? There are two issues: One, what Christians are generally taught and, second that there is no death before the fall is a figure of speech. Both are true but if you clarify which one, is ridiculous, I will gladly and humbly explain it to you. I know thinking is hard, but you can do it.

BTW, your responses are generally non responsive.
 

tieman55

New member
That is ridiculous.

No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.

We don't know how long Adam lived before the fall, yes or no?

There is far more microscopic life then there is life that we can see, yes or no?

Are you saying, not one insect and or one living cell and or organism from a cut or a scrap or a blister to the skin of Adam and or Eve could have happened before the fall? Adam never tripped and fell before the fall? Never stubbed a toe? Was he created with shoes on?

Was Adam superman, or was he just a man?

Adam and Eve ate, was the food they ate at any point alive?

Yes, no death before the fall is a figure of speech.
 

tieman55

New member
Again, your responses are evasive and non responsive.

You have shifted from ridiculous to my lack of understanding.
 

7djengo7

New member
No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.

LOL

What a brilliant figure of speech to use--"No death before the fall"--when what you're trying to convey by it is the idea of some, nay, of much death before the fall.:crackup:
 

Clete

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No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.

We don't know how long Adam lived before the fall, yes or no?

There is far more microscopic life then there is life that we can see, yes or no?

Are you saying, not one insect and or one living cell and or organism from a cut or a scrap or a blister to the skin of Adam and or Eve could have happened before the fall? Adam never tripped and fell before the fall? Never stubbed a toe? Was he created with shoes on?

Was Adam superman, or was he just a man?

Adam and Eve ate, was the food they ate at any point alive?

Yes, no death before the fall is a figure of speech.

A figure of speach would require someone to say it. There isn't anyone who believes that there was no death before the fall in the way you are meaning it here. At least I've never heard of anyone who thought that plants and anmals lived forever, that fruit would never rot back into the soil, or that somehow the food Adam ate remained alive or even intact after he ate it. No one with any common sense would believe such things.

But none of that is what death is. That's all biology. Death is a spiritual issue, not a biological one. Death happens when your soul/spirit is seperated from your physical body (physical death) or from God the Father (spiritual death). Neither would have ever happened to Adam and Eve had they not chosen to rebel against God, Who is Life itself.

Of course, there is an important sense in which biological things are alive and when that biology stops it isn't wrong to say that they have died. Not only that, but biological death is one way to seperate one's spirit from the body but the point is that when God said "...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.", He wasn't talking about biology.
 

tieman55

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A figure of speach would require someone to say it. There isn't anyone who believes that there was no death before the fall in the way you are meaning it here. At least I've never heard of anyone who thought that plants and anmals lived forever, that fruit would never rot back into the soil, or that somehow the food Adam ate remained alive or even intact after he ate it. No one with any common sense would believe such things.

But none of that is what death is. That's all biology. Death is a spiritual issue, not a biological one. Death happens when your soul/spirit is seperated from your physical body (physical death) or from God the Father (spiritual death). Neither would have ever happened to Adam and Eve had they not chosen to rebel against God, Who is Life itself.

Of course, there is an important sense in which biological things are alive and when that biology stops it isn't wrong to say that they have died. Not only that, but biological death is one way to seperate one's spirit from the body but the point is that when God said "...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.", He wasn't talking about biology.
So, I agree with just about everything you said, but above you have made declarative and restrictive observations that, to me, make "death" a figure of speech that almost always needs further context, so that the reader can understand what you mean by death.

My question is "could" Adam die before the fall? God said if you eat you will "surly" die. God never told Adam that he couldn't die. Before he ate, he could have died an accidental physical death.
(The last sentence is a great example as to how the word "death" needs to have the proper context. If I didn't add the word physical, you could have thought I meant spiritual) I think that observation, that Adam "could" have died before he ate is an important to know. If you accept the possibility that Adam could have had an accidental death then, "surly" takes on a new meaning.

As to how common the belief is that there was NO death before the fall? In my life it is quite common to hear that from Christians. The average pew sitter, hears it and repeats it with little thought. Now, once you reason with them for just a moment they easily get the idea, but they most likely will not adopt that belief without a person of authority saying it.
 

tieman55

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That has NOTHING to do with the post that I quoted.

I see that you post a lot, I was wondering if you ever make any substantive comments; or do you only do drive by's?

I am guessing, Isaiah's, admonition . . . come lets reason together . . is not your favorite bible verse. LOL
 

Lon

Well-known member
So, I agree with just about everything you said, but above you have made declarative and restrictive observations that, to me, make "death" a figure of speech that almost always needs further context, so that the reader can understand what you mean by death.

My question is "could" Adam die before the fall? God said if you eat you will "surly" die. God never told Adam that he couldn't die. Before he ate, he could have died an accidental physical death.
(The last sentence is a great example as to how the word "death" needs to have the proper context. If I didn't add the word physical, you could have thought I meant spiritual) I think that observation, that Adam "could" have died before he ate is an important to know. If you accept the possibility that Adam could have had an accidental death then, "surly" takes on a new meaning.

As to how common the belief is that there was NO death before the fall? In my life it is quite common to hear that from Christians. The average pew sitter, hears it and repeats it with little thought. Now, once you reason with them for just a moment they easily get the idea, but they most likely will not adopt that belief without a person of authority saying it.

'figure of speech?'
Figure of speech, any intentional deviation from literal statement or common usage that emphasizes, clarifies, or embellishes both written and spoken language. britannica.com

Figure of Speech: a form of expression (such as a simile or metaphor) used to convey meaning or heighten effect often by comparing or identifying one thing with another that has a meaning or connotation familiar to the reader or listener -Webster's

Disparity: Noticeable difference between two things - Collins

:think:
 

Right Divider

Body part
I see that you post a lot, I was wondering if you ever make any substantive comments; or do you only do drive by's?

I am guessing, Isaiah's, admonition . . . come lets reason together . . is not your favorite bible verse. LOL

YOU claim that there is a "figure of speech" and YET you cannot support that idea.

Apparently, you do not even know what the term means.

LOL
 

tieman55

New member
YOU claim that there is a "figure of speech" and YET you cannot support that idea.

Apparently, you do not even know what the term means.

LOL

Wow, congrats to the divider! No drive by hit and run today ... and I thought you were a bot , . .

Just how "figure of speech" became a focal point of my post is funny . . . anyway

My experience, and my overall impression over my years in church and in what Christians are generally taught is that there was no death before the fall. I thought and still think I am being generous, in my calling that general teaching a figure of speech. To be specific, it is hyperbole and clearly it is not literally true, no death before the fall is an exaggeration.

Are you still laughing out loud?
 
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