Creation vs. Evolution

[DavisBJ]

This goes back to God having provided the life preservers. If there is not enough for everyone?! then those who are unsaved should be wearing the life preservers!

Which verse are you talking about? The word nomad can be used variously. But the people of Israel have a home in the promised land.

Science is not the issue, evolution is. When evolution is taught it should be noted when falsehood appears. Otherwise children believe lies from teachers who should be teaching them the truth.

If you mean teaching evolution strengthens children's resolve against falsehood? As long as kids know it is false and a part of the history of science albeit wrong. But to be taught something like evolution and get a bad grade for not believing it... that would be wrong.

I think you are joking.

The Bible is true. Evolution is not. It doesn't make sense to teach falsehood to anyone.

It is unfortunate that you knowingly choose to be a form of intellectual cancer in education because you think that is what God wants.

 

[Jacob]

It is unfortunate that you knowingly choose to be a form of intellectual cancer in education because you think that is what God wants.

God never told me to be a form of intellectual cancer in education. That is your idea.

I have educated myself in the Bible and I will continue to do so.

 

[DavisBJ]

God never told me to be a form of intellectual cancer in education. That is your idea.

I have educated myself in the Bible and I will continue to do so.

It is neither God’s idea, nor mine. It is a choice you have lowered yourself to adopt.

I have lots of friends who are Bible scholars, but who also have the discernment to know that brute-force literalism in reading it is a poor way to understand it’s message.

 

[Hedshaker]

Stuu, you are nailing jello to the wall. But good luck if you want to continue :up:

 

[Jacob]

It is neither God’s idea, nor mine. It is a choice you have lowered yourself to adopt.

I have lots of friends who are Bible scholars, but who also have the discernment to know that brute-force literalism in reading it is a poor way to understand it’s message.

Do you know all the nuances of literal vs. non literal interpretation? They are many of them.

How do you view the Bible? What is the Bible to you? Would you say it is an ancient document? Would you say it is relevant for today? Would you say it is literature? Do you believe the Bible is religious only? Do you trust it's historical authenticity? Do you believe the Bible is the word of God, even summarily so?

Do you believe literal means you can trust what the Bible says? Does it mean not figurative? Does it mean not metaphorical? Does it mean not symbolic?

Many people believe the Bible is literal and at the same time they have differing interpretations about parts of the Bible. For example, some people point out the parables that are in the Bible. The poetry. The songs. There is a lot to the Bible and saying the Bible is not literal from the get-go would be to imply that none of these things should be taken as is, in my opinion. But I know better than that.

 

[DavisBJ]

Do you know all the nuances of literal vs. non literal interpretation? They are many of them.

A better way than relying on nuances is to see what the real-life physical evidence shows. That is what you are refusing to do.

How do you view the Bible? What is the Bible to you? Would you say it is an ancient document? Would you say it is relevant for today? Would you say it is literature? Do you believe the Bible is religious only? Do you trust it's historical authenticity? Do you believe the Bible is the word of God, even summarily so?

No matter what my feelings on these things are, the record we find in nature is what it is. Do you believe your God provided us a false record in what we see nature?

 

[Jacob]

A better way than relying on nuances is to see what the real-life physical evidence shows. That is what you are refusing to do.

When do you believe science was invented, including in its modern form? I know what the Bible says, and in my faith as a Christian that is of utmost importance. Ultimately God doesn't need me to defend Him as He is God. But if I can help you see what is in the Bible then I think that is a good thing.

No matter what my feelings on these things are, the record we find in nature is what it is. Do you believe your God provided us a false record in what we see nature?

I don't believe the Bible is a false record (if you are asking about the Biblical record), so no. But I am a Christian DavisBJ. I believe it is the Bible that is the word of God.

 

[DavisBJ]

When do you believe science was invented, including in its modern form? I know what the Bible says, and in my faith as a Christian that is of utmost importance. Ultimately God doesn't need me to defend Him as He is God. But if I can help you see what is in the Bible then I think that is a good thing.

I don't believe the Bible is a false record (if you are asking about the Biblical record), so no. But I am a Christian DavisBJ. I believe it is the Bible that is the word of God.

Your response completely avoided the issue of what we actually find in nature. If I were to write a lesson plan for teachers to use when they teach about whales and dolphins and such, how about this as part of the lesson plan:

When discussing where whales came from, the teachers are not to discuss the record found in nature, nor to encourage the students to seek to find that for themselves. There is an ancient record called the Old Testament, the early part of which incorporates large segments of legends from even earlier societies. The very first of that record, if read literally, says that God zapped all creatures into existence in just a couple of big batches. But since the record in nature shows a progression of animals, with some going extinct long before others appeared, there is a danger that allowing the students to know this would force them to consider that the ancient record may not be an accurate literal description of the order in which life forms appeared.

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That meet with your approval?

 

[Jacob]

Your response completely avoided the issue of what we actually find in nature. If I were to write a lesson plan for teachers to use when they teach about whales and dolphins and such, how about this as part of the lesson plan:

When discussing where whales came from, the teachers are not to discuss the record found in nature, nor to encourage the students to seek to find that for themselves. There is an ancient record called the Old Testament, the early part of which incorporates large segments of legends from even earlier societies. The very first of that record, if read literally, says that God zapped all creatures into existence in just a couple of big batches. But since the record in nature shows a progression of animals, with some going extinct long before others appeared, there is a danger that allowing the students to know this would force them to consider that the ancient record may not be an accurate literal description of the order in which life forms appeared.

​

That meet with your approval?

I did not write this and I wouldn't write this.

I believe the Bible puts forth that living things as well as other things were created by God, and that we can study these creatures in nature via science.

 

[DavisBJ]

I did not write this and I wouldn't write this.

Well, duuuhhh, really? I kinda think I made it explicit that it was from me.

I believe the Bible puts forth that living things as well as other things were created by God, and that we can study these creatures in nature via science.

Your responses consistently avoid the issues. Your responses are just kindergarten-level variations on “I trust God”. You will not venture into the real meat of the questions posed to you. I wish you would participate in these discussions at the level even a minimally competent engineer would be expected to be able to handle.

You say “we can study these creatures in nature via science.” But the point that you refuse to face is that we have already done a lot of “study(ing) these creatures in nature via science” and the results were that the creation account in Genesis is not what those studies showed.

Other have made the point that if your God is real and created all, then the record in nature is also from Him. That record in nature has not gone through a history of oral traditions in a nomadic society. The written record you give such blind allegiance to was committed to ancient documents, of which not a single original is known to still exist.

Your God speaks to you through nature just as reliably as written Biblical records that have been subject to generations of scribes. And you are calling your God a blithering liar for what He says in nature.

 

[Jacob]

Well, duuuhhh, really? I kinda think I made it explicit that it was from me.

Your responses consistently avoid the issues. Your responses are just kindergarten-level variations on “I trust God”. You will not venture into the real meat of the questions posed to you. I wish you would participate in these discussions at the level even a minimally competent engineer would be expected to be able to handle.

Engineers are not expected to know about evolution.

You say “we can study these creatures in nature via science.” But the point that you refuse to face is that we have already done a lot of “study(ing) these creatures in nature via science” and the results were that the creation account in Genesis is not what those studies showed.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you give me a better idea of what you mean so I can see if there is anything intelligent I can add?

Other have made the point that if your God is real and created all, then the record in nature is also from Him. That record in nature has not gone through a history of oral traditions in a nomadic society. The written record you give such blind allegiance to was committed to ancient documents, of which not a single original is known to still exist.

Have you compared the ancient texts of the Bible with other ancient texts to determine their reliability?

Your God speaks to you through nature just as reliably as written Biblical records that have been subject to generations of scribes. And you are calling your God a blithering liar for what He says in nature.

Would you say that "nature" is God's creation?

 

[DavisBJ]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you give me a better idea of what you mean so I can see if there is anything intelligent I can add?

You say “we can study these creatures in nature via science.” We have. And that study shows a progression of animals, with some going extinct long before others appeared. Nothing even remotely close to a big batch of life forms appearing on one day, and then the rest the next day.

 

[DavisBJ]

I did not write this and I wouldn't write this.

If you would not write a lesson plan as I proposed, what advice would you give teachers about how to teach about how life forms appeared on earth?

 

[Jacob]

You say “we can study these creatures in nature via science.” We have. And that study shows a progression of animals, with some going extinct long before others appeared. Nothing even remotely close to a big batch of life forms appearing on one day, and then the rest the next day.

Have you read chapter 1 of Genesis? The six days are all there with more detail throughout the Bible (for example Genesis 2 does include day 7 when God rested and how God made Eve, the first woman (from Adam rib to be His wife)).

 

[Jacob]

If you would not write a lesson plan as I proposed, what advice would you give teachers about how to teach about how life forms appeared on earth?

It would be stupid to say God did not create His creation, to begin with.

 

[DavisBJ]

Have you read chapter 1 of Genesis? The six days are all there with more detail throughout the Bible (for example Genesis 2 does include day 7 when God rested and how God made Eve, the first woman (from Adam rib to be His wife)).

I’m hard-pressed to believe any engineer would be as reluctant to honestly address what was said as you are. Hundreds of millions of years ago – all we see in the fossil record is fairly primitive life forms. Then era after era, each with its own unique collection of animals and plants. Dinosaurs, all gone for over 60 million years. Now you tell me how you match that record from God’s nature (man didn’t make nature) up with the Genesis account.

 

[DavisBJ]

It would be stupid to say God did not create His creation, to begin with.

That is the advice you would give to teachers? Are you serious?

 

[Jacob]

I’m hard-pressed to believe any engineer would be as reluctant to honestly address what was said as you are. Hundreds of millions of years ago – all we see in the fossil record is fairly primitive life forms. Then era after era, each with its own unique collection of animals and plants. Dinosaurs, all gone for over 60 million years. Now you tell me how you match that record from God’s nature (man didn’t make nature) up with the Genesis account.

Aside from Middle School I have no exposure to the fossil record apart from personal observation of teaching in the world around me.

 

[Jacob]

That is the advice you would give to teachers? Are you serious?

Some teachers may believe God created using evolution. Some may teach evolution and not express their personal beliefs, whether they differ or don't. But if someone says evolution is true and God does not exist they are doing their students a disservice.

 

[Jacob]

I’m hard-pressed to believe any engineer would be as reluctant to honestly address what was said as you are. Hundreds of millions of years ago – all we see in the fossil record is fairly primitive life forms. Then era after era, each with its own unique collection of animals and plants. Dinosaurs, all gone for over 60 million years. Now you tell me how you match that record from God’s nature (man didn’t make nature) up with the Genesis account.

I don't trust this fossil record interpretation at all. However, the Bible doesn't speak directly to either science or the fossil record. It may speak indirectly however, as with the world-wide flood.