Creation vs. Evolution

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TheDuke

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No fish were taken onto the Ark, nor whales, dolphins, sharks, turtles etc.

Thus all aquatic species today, fresh and salt water HAD to have survived the flood according to the Bible.

Isn't that a fruitful way for atheists/agnostics to disprove the Flood, or for us Creationists to strengthen our argument. And since we Creationists have faith in the flood, we have nothing to fear.

Excellent, I'm glad to see theists using logic and reason. This is indeed a very well formulated proposition.


Or is it?...........................


I'd like to ask you the following in order:

1) Your faith is strong. But is it overwhelming
Can you even consider the possibility that you're wrong?


if your answer is yes, then
2) What would it take in order to convince you
If the flood never happened, would you reject the bible?
(or would you find a way to re-interpret scripture or just leave out those parts)


if your answer is yes, then
3) if the vast majority of aquatic life cannot deal with varying salinity today, would you accept that it would have been no different 4000 years ago?


if your answer is no, then
4) You'll never be convinced by pesky little facts like that. Then forget about the stupid fish and let's bring on the big guns.


We know there was no flood because:
  • zero geological evidence
  • no explanation beyond magic where the water came from and where did it go
  • vegetation still exists - no plant that grows out of water can survive so long being submerged
  • flora and fauna divercity around the globe, aka biogeography
  • there are trees still alive older than 4000 years
  • tree rings in general show nothing reminiscent of a global cataclysm
  • there are human made structures older than 4000 years
  • there are UNINTERRUPTED records in multiple civilizations
  • human ethnic and cultural divercity and numbers cannot come about in only 4000 years
  • and the list goes on, just google it


Really, the only argument you've got is blind faith
 

iouae

Well-known member
We know there was no flood because:
  • zero geological evidence .

    Surrounded by sedimentary rocks high on mountains with marine fossils.

  • no explanation beyond magic where the water came from and where did it go

    Presumably earth was much flatter before the flood, so the same amount of water now sits in the oceans. Land was pushed up.

  • vegetation still exists - no plant that grows out of water can survive so long being submerged

    Seeds.

  • flora and fauna divercity around the globe, aka biogeography

    If seeds were washed everywhere, plants died out where too dry, wet etc.

  • there are trees still alive older than 4000 years

    Prove it. I have looked into this and not found any. And multiple tree rings can form in one year giving false impression of being older.

  • tree rings in general show nothing reminiscent of a global cataclysm

    First show there are trees older than 4400 years. And if there are, maybe they did not produce an annual ring.

  • there are human made structures older than 4000 years

    This is one of the GREATEST PROOFS FOR CREATION that human civilisations ARE so young, not going back more than 10 000 years - and even there the dating is wrong.

  • there are UNINTERRUPTED records in multiple civilizations

    Like the Egyptians - who faked the records.

  • human ethnic and cultural divercity and numbers cannot come about in only 4000 years

    Says who?

  • and the list goes on, just google it

    This was your best shot, the big guns?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Greg....rather than continue creating strawmen... why not quote what was actually said? *You keep fabricating arguments that you feel you can handle.*

Here is what actually was said....
"The*thing is we don't know the salinity of the oceans before or after the flood. We don't know the genetic makeup of pre-flood marine life. We don't know if hundreds of species were eliminated in the flood. We don't know if pools of fresh water could remain unmixed with salty water.

We do know that some modern fish can survive in both of today's environments like salmon. We do know that some fish like sticklebacks have the genetic info to adapt rapidly. We do know that adaptation / speciation is a result of losing pre-existing genetic information. We know that many of today's creatures are highly adapted to specific environments and unable to survive changing conditions."

So is this all you can say? That you don't know, and somehow you not knowing trumps scientific data?
 

6days

New member
The Duke said:
We know there was no flood because:zero geological evidence
We know about the flood from overwhelming geological evidence
The Duke said:
no explanation beyond magic where the water came from and where did it go

Evolutionists reject the evidence that there is enough water on our earth to cover it 2 miles deep, before the mountains rose and the deep ocean canyons opened.

Psalm104:7,8 *At your command, the water fled;
****at the sound of your thunder, it hurried away.
*Mountains rose and valleys sank
****to the levels you decreed.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
overwhelming geological evidence

Evolutionists reject the evidence that there is enough water on our earth to cover it 2 miles deep, before the mountains rose and the deep ocean canyons opened.

Psalm104:7,8**But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight; *they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them.*

JUST GOOGLE IT :)
Please please give me the scientific study that showed there is enough water on Earth to cover it 2 miles deep, and where it all is right now?
 

6days

New member
Please please give me the scientific study that showed there is enough water on Earth to cover it 2 miles deep, and where it all is right now?
Google it Greg... its not hard. I got that info previously from a USA government.website.
Try Google
Earth's oceans enough water to cover earth to a depth of 3 km.
 

6days

New member
So is this all you can say? That you don't know, and somehow you not knowing trumps scientific data?
Nope... that isn't what I said you are creating a straw man argument. I said there are some things we don't know and there are other things we do know.
BTW.... if you want to criticize not knowing something. ... I can share with you stories evolutionists have told based on their beliefs... later proven wrong by science.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Google it Greg... its not hard. I got that info previously from a USA government.website.
Try Google
Earth's oceans enough water to cover earth to a depth of 3 km.

You mean this?

"If all of the world's water was poured on the contiguous United States, it would cover the land to a depth of about 107 miles (145 kilometers)."

http://water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

You're a fool. Do you not realize how much bigger and deeper the Earth is than the contiguous United States? There is this thing called the Mariana Trench that Mount Everest could fit into, for example.
Now either prove me wrong and post a credible source saying the entire Earth could be submerged 2 miles underwater, or continue to dodge
 

Hedshaker

New member
if you want to criticize not knowing something. ... I can share with you stories evolutionists have told based on their beliefs... later proven wrong by science.

But, by your own definition, that would surly be a Strawman argument, would it not? Maybe that you have resisted means you are learning something.

This could be the start of your recovery :) :)
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
i am the straw man
Spoiler
e2db37cf429f49f211da9892473fa9cd.jpg
 

6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
6days said:
Try Google
Earth's oceans enough water to cover earth to a depth of 3 km.

You mean this?*

"If all of the*world's*water was poured on*the contiguous United States, it would cover the land to a depth of about 107 miles (145 kilometers)."

http://water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

You're a fool. Do you not realize how much bigger and deeper the Earth is than the contiguous United States? There is this thing called the Mariana Trench that Mount Everest could fit into, for example.*
Now either prove me wrong and post a credible source saying the entire Earth could be submerged 2 miles underwater, or continue to dodge

Oh dear... :)

I hadn't said a thing about the USA.

But *I did say that there is enough water to cover the earth to a depth of about 3KM.

Consider..
*the earth is more than 2/3 covered in water.
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

* The average ocean depth is more than 3.5 kilometers. Some areas are about 7 km deep
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean

* There is about 1 billion, 386 million cubic kilometers of surface water on our earth.*
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

* Dump that water over 510,000,000 Sq. Km of a level earth surface and the water is 2.5 km deep. ( you need do some math)
http://www.universetoday.com/25756/surface-area-of-the-earth/

* Now...if you wish, add the deep underground water which some think may be a greater amount than surface water.
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/huge-underground-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core

There is plenty of water for the global flood account in God's Word..

Psalm 104
At your command, the water fled;
****at the sound of your thunder, it hurried away.
8*Mountains rose and valleys sank
****to the levels you decreed.
9*Then you set a firm boundary for the seas,
****so they would never again cover the earth.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Oh dear... :)

I hadn't said a thing about the USA.

But *I did say that there is enough water to cover the earth to a depth of about 3KM.

Consider..
*the earth is more than 2/3 covered in water.
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

* The average ocean depth is more than 3.5 kilometers. Some areas are about 7 km deep
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean

* There is about 1 billion, 386 million cubic kilometers of surface water on our earth.*
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

* Dump that water over 510,000,000 Sq. Km of a level earth surface and the water is 2.5 km deep. ( you need do some math)
http://www.universetoday.com/25756/surface-area-of-the-earth/

* Now...if you wish, add the deep underground water which some think may be a greater amount than surface water.
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/huge-underground-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core

There is plenty of water for the global flood account in God's Word..

Psalm 104
At your command, the water fled;
****at the sound of your thunder, it hurried away.
8*Mountains rose and valleys sank
****to the levels you decreed.
9*Then you set a firm boundary for the seas,
****so they would never again cover the earth.


Dear 6days,

See, you're doing fine!! I told you that I would not be posting much on this thread anymore, but once in a while, I do. You're one smart cookie. Now you know what I went through being the only Christian and being bombarded by 5 evolutionists/atheists, etc. It takes some doing. They don't realize that the odds are not fair, but we still manage to keep their questions answered.

I see that patrick jane is not posting here enough nor keeping up this thread, so I guess the job falls back to me. I'm still not going to post often, like I used to. Those are my plans anyways. Tomorrow, I go for a radiation treatment simulation. Soon I will be getting radiation treatments for cancer. Hey, Christmas will be here in a month. WHOA!! You have a very Happy Thanksgiving if I don't chat with you before then. I have to spend all day cooking on Wed. and Thurs. Will try to get on here anyway, but have to see what happens.

Are you sure you don't want to take ownership of this thread?? Think about it. You can handle the job! Well, I'm going to get some pie or cake and call it a night. Will chat with you soon.

Praise The Lord God!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
SOMETHING TO CHEW ON!!

The following is by Duane Gish, Ph.D.


I. The Universe and the Solar System Were Suddenly Created.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the total quantity of matter and energy in the universe is constant. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that matter and energy always tend to change from complex and ordered states to disordered states. Therefore the universe could not have created itself, but could not have existed forever, or it would have run down long ago. Thus the universe, including matter and energy, apparently must have been created. The "big-bang" theory of the origin of the universe contradicts much physical evidence and seemingly can only be accepted by faith.{1} This was also the case with the past cosmogonies theories of evolutionists that have been discarded, such as Hoyle’s steady-state theory. The universe has "obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design." Similarly, the electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects," yet a "strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer." "The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction," in the words of Dr. Wernher von Braun, the renowned late physicist in the NASA space program.

II. Life Was Suddenly Created.

Life appears abruptly and in complex forms in the fossil record,{2} and gaps appear systematically in the fossil record between various living kinds.{3} These facts indicate that basic kinds of plants and animals were created. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that things tend to go from order to disorder (entropy tends to increase) unless added energy is directed by a conversion mechanism (such as photosynthesis), whether a system is open or closed. Thus simple molecules and complex protein, DNA, and RNA molecules seemingly could not have evolved spontaneously and naturalistically into a living cell;{4} such cells apparently were created. The laboratory experiments related to theories on the origin of life have not even remotely approached the synthesis of life from nonlife, and the extremely limited results have depended on laboratory conditions that are artificially imposed and extremely improbable.{5} The extreme improbability of these conditions and the relatively insignificant results apparently show that life did not emerge by the process that evolutionists postulate.

III. All Present Living Kinds of Animals and Plants Have Remained Fixed Since Creation, Other than Extinctions, and Genetic Variation in Originally Created Kinds Has Only Occurred within Narrow Limits.

Systematic gaps occur between kinds in the fossil record.{6} None of the intermediate fossils that would be expected on the basis of the evolution model have been found between single celled organisms and invertebrates, between invertebrates and vertebrates, between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles, between reptiles and birds or mammals, or between "lower" mammals and primates.{7} While evolutionists might assume that these intermediate forms existed at one time, none of the hundreds of millions of fossils found so far provide the missing links. The few suggested links such as Archoeopteryx and the horse series have been rendered questionable by more detailed data. Fossils and living organisms are readily subjected to the same criteria of classification. Thus present kinds of animals and plants apparently were created, as shown by the systematic fossil gaps and by the similarity of fossil forms to living forms. A kind may be defined as a generally interfertile group of organisms that possesses variant genes for a common set of traits but that does not interbreed with other groups of organisms under normal circumstances. Any evolutionary change between kinds (necessary for the emergence of complex from simple organisms) would require addition of entirely new traits to the common set and enormous expansion of the gene pool over time, and could not occur from mere ecologically adaptive variations of a given trait set (which the creation model recognizes).

IV. Mutation and Natural Selection Are Insufficient To Have Brought About Any Emergence of Present Living Kinds from a Simple Primordial Organism.

The mathematical probability that random mutation and natural selection ultimately produced complex living kinds from a simpler kind is infinitesimally small even after many billions of years.{8} Thus mutation and natural selection apparently could not have brought about evolution of present living kinds from a simple first organism. Mutations are always harmful or at least nearly always harmful in an organism's natural environment.{9} Thus the mutation process apparently could not have provided the postulated millions of beneficial mutations required for progressive evolution in the supposed five billion years from the origin of the earth until now, and in fact would have produced an overwhelming genetic load over hundreds of millions of years that would have caused degeneration and extinction. Natural selection is a tautologous concept (circular reasoning), because it simply requires the fittest organisms to leave the most offspring and at the same time it identifies the fittest organisms as those that leave the most offspring. Thus natural selection seemingly does not provide a testable explanation of how mutations would produce more fit organisms.{10}

V. Man and Apes Have a Separate Ancestry.

Although highly imaginative "transitional forms" between man and ape-like creatures have been constructed by evolutionists based on very fragmentary evidence, the fossil record actually documents the separate origin of primates in general,{11} monkeys,{12} apes,{13} and men. In fact, Lord Zuckerman (not a creationist) states that there are no "fossil traces" of a transformation from an ape-like creature to man.{14} The fossils of Neanderthal Man were once considered to represent a primitive sub-human (Homo neanderthalensis), but these "primitive" features are now known to have resulted from nutritional deficiencies and pathological conditions; he is now classified as fully human.{15} Ramapithecus was once considered to be partially man-like, but is now known to be fully ape-like.{16} Australopithecus, in the view of some leading evolutionists, was not intermediate between ape and man and did not walk upright.{17} The strong bias of many evolutionists in seeking a link between apes and man is shown by the near-universal acceptance of two "missing links" that were later proved to be a fraud in the case of Piltdown Man (Eoanthropus) and a pig's tooth in the case of Nebraska Man (Hesperopithecus).{18}

VI. The Earth's Geologic Features Were Fashioned Largely by Rapid, Catastrophic Processes that Affected the Earth on a Global and Regional Scale (Catastrophism).

Catastrophic events have characterized the earth's history. Huge floods, massive asteroid collisions, large volcanic eruptions, devastating landslides, and intense earthquakes have left their marks on the earth. Catastrophic events appear to explain the formation of mountain ranges, deposition of thick sequences of sedimentary rocks with fossils, initiation of the glacial age, and extinction of dinosaurs and other animals. Catastrophism (catastrophic changes), rather than uniformitarianism (gradual changes), appears to be the best interpretation of a major portion of the earth's geology. Geologic data reflect catastrophic flooding. Evidences of rapid catastrophic water deposition include fossilized tree trunks that penetrate numerous sedimentary layers (such as at Joggins, Nova Scotia), widespread pebble and boulder layers (such as the Shinarump Conglomerate of the southwestern United States), fossilized logs in a single layer covering extensive areas (such as Petrified Forest National Park), and whole closed clams that were buried alive in mass graveyards in extensive sedimentary layers (such as at Glen Rose, Texas). Uniform processes such as normal river sedimentation, small volcanoes, slow erosion, and small earthquakes appear insufficient to explain large portions of the geologic record. Even the conventional uniformitarian geologists are beginning to yield to evidences of rapid and catastrophic processes.{19}

References
1. Slusher, Harold S., The Origin of the Universe, San Diego: Institute for Creation Research (ICR), 1978.
2. E.g., Kay, Marshall & Colbert, Edwin H, Stratigraphy and Life History, New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1965, p, 102;
Simpson, George G., The Major Features of Evolution, New York: Columbia University Press, 1953, p 360: [Paleontologists recognize] that most new species, genera and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.
3. Note 6 infra.
4. E.g., Smith, Charles J. "Problems with Entropy in Biology," Biosystems, V.7, 1975, pp 259, 264. "The earth, moon, and sun constitute an essentialy closed thermodynamic system..." Simpson, George G., "Uniformitariarisrn," in Hecht, Max A. & Steeres, William C., eds., Essays in Evolution and Genetics, New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1970, p. 43.
5. Gish, Duane T., Speculations and Experiments Related to the Origin of Life (A Critique), San Diego: ICR, 1972,
6. E.g., Simpson, George G., "The History of Life," in Tax, Sol, ed. Evolution after Darwin: The Evolution of Life, Chicago:Univ. of Chicago Press, 1960 pp. 117, 149:
Gaps among known orders, classes, and phyla are systematic and almost always large.
7. E.g., Kitts, David S., "Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory," Evolution V. 28 1974, pp.458, 467:
Evolution requires intermediate forms betvveen species and paleontology does not provide them. For examples of the lack of transitional fossils, Ommaney, F. D. The Fishes, New York: Time Life, Inc., 1964, p 60 (invertebrates to vertebrates); Romer, Alfred S., Vertebrate Paleontology, Chicago Univ. of Chicago Press, 31 ed., 1966, p.36 (vertebrate fish to amphibians) Swinton, W.E., Biology and Comparative Physiology of Birds, Marshall, A.J., ed., New York Academic Press, V.1, 1960, p.1 (reptiles to birds); Simpson, George G., Tempo and Mode in Evolution, New York: Columbia Univ., Press. 1944, p.l05 (reptiles to mammals); Simons, E.L., Annals N.Y. Acad. Science, V.167, 1969, p.319 (mammals to primates).
8. E.g., Eden, Murray. "Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory," in Moorhead, Paul S. & Kaplan, Martin M., eds., Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, Philadelphia: Wistar Inst. Press, 1967, p,109:
It is our contention that if 'random' is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilisticpoint of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws...
9. E.g., Martin, C.P., "A Non-Geneticist looks at Evolution," American Scientist, V. 41, 1954, p. 100
10. E.g., Popper, Karl, Objective Knowledge, Oxford: Clarendon Press 1975 p. 242
11. E.g., Kelso, A.J., Physical Anthropology, 2nd ed., Philadelphia, J.B. Lippincott, 1974. p 142
12. E.g., Ibid., pp.150,151
13. E.g., Simons, E.L., Annals N.Y. Acad. Science. V.102, 1962, p.293, Simons, E.L., "The Early Relatives of Man," Scientfic American, V.211, July 1964 p 50
14. E.g., Zuckerman, Sir Solly, Beyond the Ivory Tower, New York, Taplinger Pub. Co., 1970, p.64.
15. E.q., Ivanhoe, Francis, "Was Virchow Right about Neandert[h]al?", Nature V. 227, 1970, p. 577
16. E.g., Zuckerman, pp. 75-94; Eckhardt, Robert B., "Population Genetics and Human Origins", Scientific American, V.226, 1972, pp.94,101.
17. E.g., Oxnard, Charles E., "Human Fossils: New Views of Old Bones," American Biology Teacher, V.41, 1979, p.264.
18. E.g., Straus, William L., "The Great Piltdown Hoax," Science, V.119, 1954, p.265 (Piltdown Man); Gregory, William K., "Hesperopithecus Apparently Not an Ape Nor a Man," Science, V.66,1927, p. 579 (Nebraska Man).
19. E.g., Bhattacharyya, A., Sarkar, S. & Chanda, S.K., "Storm Deposits in the Late Proterozoic Lower Bhander Sandstone of ... India," Journal of Sedimentary Petrology. V.50,1980, p. 1327:
Until recently, noncatastrophic uniformitarianism had dominated sedimentologic thought reflecting that sediment formation and dispersal owe their genesis chiefly to the operation of day-to-day geologic events. As a result, catastrophic events, e.g.. storms, earthquakes, etc., have been denied their rightful place in ancient and recent sedimentary records. Of late, however, there has been a welcome rejuvenation of [the] concept of catastrophism in geologic thought.
J. Harlan Bretz recently stated, on receiving the Penrose Medal (the highest geology award in America), "Perhaps, I can be credited with reviving and demystifying legendary Catastrophism and challenging a too rigorous Uniformitarianism." Geological Society of America, "GSA Medals and Awards," GSA News & Information, V. 2, 1980, p.40.
 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER

Dear patrick jane,

I have already published a book, which is in it's 7th Edition and is in the Downtown Phoenix Library here. President Obama has a copy, besides many others. And of course, it is in the Library of Congress.

God's Best For You Always, PJ!!

Michael

:guitar: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :singer:



 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned

Dear patrick jane,

I have already published a book, which is in it's 7th Edition and is in the Downtown Phoenix Library here. President Obama has a copy, besides many others. And of course, it is in the Library of Congress.

Michael

Obama has his own copy in the White House ? That's remarkable !!! I wonder if he has read all 7 editions ?
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Michael old chum. You know, when you post someone else's work in a public forum, you should give the real author credit and post a link from where it came.

Otherwise it looks like you are claiming credit for your self, which is plagiarism, and generally frowned upon. :thumb:


Dear Hedshaker,

Of course I am not taking credit for it. I will see if I can find the author's name. I think it is a collaboration, but I will see. No problem. Thanks for the heads up, Hedshaker. I wish you would write to me with good news sometimes.

Warmest Wishes,

Michael
 
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