Creation vs. Evolution

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Stuu

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I am familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. What point are you trying to make regarding it?

Did you know, that whenever an Atheist cannot Explain a Natural Phenomenon, they Say Time Did it.
Can you give an example of that?

Notice the Order in these Rocks, Do you think someone Stacked them?
Yes.

Or, Do you think that Nature, Put them together, just So, Over Lots and Lots of Time?
No. Although there are many natural phenomena that do give the illusion of design, I agree that this is almost certainly the work of humans.

Now, consider that, it is way more Likely that Nature stacked these Rocks, than it is that Nature, formed living Organisms from Dirt, Naturally.
I remember something about humans coming from dirt in Genesis. I don't believe that myself.

Do you believe, Using Reasoning; that Nature Stacked these Rocks? Or, do you think some person walking on the beach came along, and Stacked up these Tiny Rocks, in just the Right order so that they Stand Alone, one atop the other?
Please see my earlier answer. They don't look like tiny rocks to me.

The same can Be applied to the Order we observe in DNA in Living Organisms here on Earth.
No it can't. Rock sculptures can't reproduce themselves.

Stuart
 

Mark SeaSigh

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I am familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. What point are you trying to make regarding it?

Can you give an example of that?

Yes.

No. Although there are many natural phenomena that do give the illusion of design, I agree that this is almost certainly the work of humans.

I remember something about humans coming from dirt in Genesis. I don't believe that myself.


Please see my earlier answer. They don't look like tiny rocks to me.

No it can't. Rock sculptures can't reproduce themselves.

Stuart

Entropy is not The Second Law of Thermodynamics.
In fact the Word Entropy is used when Defining the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

=M=

Entropy, the fact that all things that are of Order, are working towards maximum Entropy, proves that Order works to Disorder in the Universe.

Which means, Unless acted upon by an Outside force, all things in the Universe, are moving from Order to Disorder.

That Proves that the Order in the Universe, to Exist, Requires an All Powerful Designer.

===============================================

If you can See that the Order that exists in those Rocks, takes someone to Create it, and Don't Realize that the Order Seen in the Human Genome is so much More Complex, and Elegantly Ordered, and thereby would Require Someone to have also Created the Order in DNA, then I don't hold any Hope for you Understanding. It's really Quite simple, which is why I figured you would be able to Understand.

; D
 

Stuu

New member
Entropy is not The Second Law of Thermodynamics. In fact the Word Entropy is used when Defining the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Yes, I know all this.

Unless acted upon by an Outside force, all things in the Universe, are moving from Order to Disorder. That Proves that the Order in the Universe, to Exist, Requires an All Powerful Designer.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics only requires that for any process to be spontaneous it must increase the entropy of the universe overall. So the question would be, how is the entropy of the early universe measured, in order that it be compared with the entropy now, 13.8 billion years later?

That might be an interesting question, but no logic requires an 'outside force', and anyway you still have to explain how this 'force' did the ordering. Otherwise it's not relevant to the argument.

If you can See that the Order that exists in those Rocks, takes someone to Create it, and Don't Realize that the Order Seen in the Human Genome is so much More Complex, and Elegantly Ordered, and thereby would Require Someone to have also Created the Order in DNA, then I don't hold any Hope for you Understanding. It's really Quite simple, which is why I figured you would be able to Understand.
Living species with DNA reproduce; rocks don't. That is my valid reasoning.

I did say that to you earlier. But apparently you can't learn.

Stuart
 

Mark SeaSigh

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Yes, I know all this.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics only requires that for any process to be spontaneous it must increase the entropy of the universe overall. So the question would be, how is the entropy of the early universe measured, in order that it be compared with the entropy now, 13.8 billion years later?

That might be an interesting question, but no logic requires an 'outside force', and anyway you still have to explain how this 'force' did the ordering. Otherwise it's not relevant to the argument.

Living species with DNA reproduce; rocks don't. That is my valid reasoning.

I did say that to you earlier. But apparently you can't learn.

Stuart

Wrong again Sue;

All the Order in the Universe, proves a Designer.

Have a Nice Night.

Even if you can't grasp the Concept, I know that there are many who will Gain By Reading it, and Understanding.

Order to Disorder.

You believe that all the Order in Nature, can be attributed to Natural Processes.

So, What Natural Process, Takes Inorganic Material to the State of Living Organisms?

Is it "Time"?

=M=

Living Organisms With DNA, Is an Example of Even More Profound Order in Existence, than the Rock Pile. If you believe that the Order Observed in those Rocks, was Due to Someone; Than Why don't you think the Greater, and Harder to achieve Order Seen In DNA, could have come about, through Natural Processes?

For instance, A drinking glass is Made, by someone who Melted Sand, and Shaped the Glass. If the Glass were to Break, it would be Order Moving into Disorder. Do you believe a Drinking Glass could form Naturally? There is nothing in the Laws of Physics saying it can not, it just Is so unlikely, that it will never happen.

The Same Thought Processes can be Applied to the Evolutionists Belief that DNA would arrange itself naturally, in order, So that it would Result in a Living Creature with Symmetry, while the Insides of the Creature differ.

God did It.

HA! I said it!

At least, I don't think that Nothing can create order, if you give it Enough Time, like you Atheists Do. LOL!

Even if It could, could Nothing Start Time, and Create the Physical Laws that Govern the Universe, all in one Instant?

Evolutionists are like, "Well Obviously, It had to Happen One Time At Least, Cause here We Are". LOL!

Leaping Lemur Logic, I tell You, Leaping Lemur Logic.
 
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Mark SeaSigh

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Maybe get back to me when you have learned some manners.

Stuart (as is it spelled)

Maybe Get back to me, When you can find a Reason to debate my Thoughts, rather than Capitalization.

Or, why don't you get back to me, When you have finally come up with a Personal Definition of the Word, "Nature", as it is used in this next sentence.

"Nature" is what Formed Life, from Inorganic Materials.
Or, Nature works in Mysterious Ways.

=M=

===========================================

Don't be a Sore "Loser", That you lost the Debate, just know that Real Scientists Believe in God.

---------------------------------------------------------------

“He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.”

― Isaac Newton


“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”

― Isaac Newton, The Principia: Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy

"God created everything by number, weight and measure."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

220px-Sir_Isaac_Newton_by_Sir_Godfrey_Kneller%2C_Bt.jpg


==================================

Tesla Believed that God was Responsible For His, "Ideas".
He Gave Glory and Honor to God.


The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.”

-Nikola Tesla

220px-Blue_Portrait_of_Nikola_Tesla.jpg


Look for this Picture Above, at link Below, to See Quote on Wiki.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

===========================================

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.

-Galileo Galilei

220px-Galilee.jpg
 
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alwight

New member
Ironically it ws Doctor Stephen Meyer who I thought was ridiculous when I was an evolutionist that pulled me away from evolution into intelligent design. I never took his stuff seriously but when I decided to look at what he was saying honestly, that's when the hinges fell off and I left evolution. It was during the time or right after his video called the signature in the cell came out.
What do you mean exactly by "left evolution"?
Darwinian evolution is either a theory that individuals think explains the evidence or it is not. I personally regard it as established fact btw, but if it can't explain the evidence then that would indeed be interesting but not something that requires invoking a supernatural or even particularly worrying to me.
If however you are not as personally convinced by the ToE as me would that then necessarily mean that something else, a creator perhaps, was therefore true?
No, I don't think so, since for me it's fine to simply admit when we don't know rather than there having to be another pole we are for some reason compelled to go and nail our flag to.

Call me a cynic but I think that books such as "signature in the cell" primarily exist because there is a ready market for anything that panders to those who simply don't want the ToE to be true, which may then tend to suggest that a preconceived version of a god might after all be true, that a supernatural entity is running the show, that their lives do have hope, purpose and meaning.
But as a cynic I tend to notice mainly that plenty of money is there to be made from such enterprises. :plain:
 
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Stuu

New member
Don't be a Sore Looser you lost the Debate, just know that Real Scientists Believe in God.
It's spelled loser. And I am not one of those.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.

-Galileo Galilei

220px-Galilee.jpg
If only you could bring yourself to take Galileo's advice.

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
Don't be a Sore Looser you lost the Debate, just know that Real Scientists Believe in God.
It's spelled loser. And I am not one of those. 40% of real scientists are god believers of some kind. That doesn't mean any god exists.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.

-Galileo Galilei

220px-Galilee.jpg
If only you could bring yourself to understand what Galileo is telling you.

Stuart
 

Mark SeaSigh

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Banned
Ok Ok, I Get it Sue!!!

You don't have to Double Post!

I will change it To Suit your Little Girlie Heart's Desires.

=M=

Also, the Fact that you can tell that the Order Observed in that Rock Pile, takes a Person to arrange it so the Center of Gravity is so they Stand Atop Each other; But on the Other Hand, you also think that Inorganic Materials Compiling themselves into Human DNA can happen Naturally; Makes me think you don't think.

Look, this Took even More Order to Create, Than the Rock Pile, and It was Obviously Done by Someone, Also;

stock-photo-pebbles-curved-as-arch-on-the-seashore-83017819.jpg


Now, Imagine the Order it would take to Stack Inorganic Material in just the Right way, That it would be DNA that is in just the Right Order to Be a Living Being.

Can you Really Expect that to Happen, Naturally, or By Chance?

====================================

It just Wont Live!!!! LIVE!!!!! LIVE SUE!!!!

Galileo's Right Sue, I'm Glad you Agree; God probably Didn't give us Eyes and Ears, and Reason, to not use them.

Now, use your Reason, and Realize that the Order found in DNA Takes a Designer to Exist.

====================================

But I know what you really Came back for Sue;

MUSIC!!!!

The Balance - The Moody Blues
 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Alwight,

I have let 'wallstreeterww' know that you have a post for him here and I gave him the page no. and the post no.

So how have you been doing?? I hope everything is great! I'm starting to think that I don't know anymore, so I'll leave it to God to clarify things for me or to tell me when I meet Him. For years, I was an Old Earth Creationist, then for a short time, a New Earth Creationist. I just believe what is written in the Bible and if there are any surprises or discrepancies, I will find out when He wants me to. It's easier on my spirit and my brain, tbh. It says He created the Universe and the Earth in 6 days, so that's where my heart lies now. I'm probably wrong, but better to be wrong than say something false in His Name. That's how I feel. I think that Mark has done us a wonderful service clearing up that evolution question. It makes sense to me also.

Al, I'm going to have a pool party tomorrow. I have an inground pool, but it is only 5 feet deep in the center. It does the trick and you don't have to tread water. Besides, we'll have a couple of kids here, so that's really a relief off of my mind. Their mother stays out there with them. My nephew and his girlfriend, and her two kids. Now he has two girls too, but they live in Colorado. We have a few Margaritas and play guitar and sing. I've got a huge amplifier. It's for professional bands. It goes up to ten (the volume) and I can only put it on one. Anyway, we're going to have kibbee and baba ganoush. Ethnic Mediterranean dishes. YUMMM!!

Well, I will write you more again soon! You take good care and remember, I left a PM with wallstreeterww, so you should hear from him soon. Hey, are you really Canadian??

Best Wishes And Cheerio!

Michael
 

Stuu

New member
Ok Ok, I Get it Sue!!!

You don't have to Double Post!

I will change it To Suit your Little Girlie Hearts Desires.

=M=

Also, the Fact that you can tell that the Order Observed in that Rock Pile, takes a Person to arrange it just so; But on the Other Hand, you also think that Inorganic Materials Compiling themselves into Human DNA can happen Naturally; Makes me think you don't think.

Look, this Took even More Order to Create, Than the Rock Pile, and It was Obviously Done by Someone, Also;

stock-photo-pebbles-curved-as-arch-on-the-seashore-83017819.jpg


Now, Imagine the Order it would take to Stack Inorganic Material in just the Right way, That it would be DNA that is in just the Right Order to Be a Living Being.



It just Wont Live!!!! LIVE!!!!! LIVE SUE!!!!
Learn some manners, or don't expect me to reply in the future.

Stuart
 

6days

New member
Well, In genesis it says in English that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. That is what it says in English, but the Hebrew word used for day was YOM, and YOM can mean literal day or indefinite time period.

http://www.oldearth.org/word_study_yom.htm
Hey Wallstreet... Welcome here!
Yes YOM can mean different time periods, just as the word 'day' can. YOM in Genesis 1 is clearly 24 hour days, and we know this because of context. We also can compare the word and context to the many other times in scripture it is used.

In English... I could say "Back in my Fathers DAY, it took 7 DAYS to complete the harvest, working only in the DAY". I have used the word 'day' 3 times...3 different meanings, all clearly understood in context. Hebrew YOM is used and defined exactly the same way. The word is used hundreds of times in the Old Testament, and the meaning in each case is always understood in context. People only question (try assign a different meaning than the context implies) in Genesis, because they want to compromise scripture to comply with evolutionary beliefs.

something I posted earlier on this....
From the straight forward reading of Gods Word, how can Christians fit millions of years into the Bible? Here are a few answers as to why theistic evolution and long ages contradicts scripture.
A Hebrew Scholar Answers (who does not believe Genesis)
James Barr, Professor of Hebrew Bible at Vanderbilt University, former Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford.

"Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; ..
Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.".

A Theologian Answers
Dr Peter Barnes, lecturer in church history at the Presbyterian Theological Centre in Sydney. He wrote: “…if God wanted us to understand the creation week as a literal week, He could hardly have made the point any clearer…. The theological argument is also compelling. According to the Bible, there was no death until there was sin. The creation is cursed only after Adam sinned (cf. Genesis 3; Romans 5:12–21; 8:19–25). This implies that all the fossils of dead animals must date from after Adam’s fall. If there was blood and violence in the creation before Adam sinned, the theological structure of the biblical message would appear to suffer considerable dislocation"


An Atheist Answers
From atheists.org/atheism
"if Adam and Eve and the Talking Snake are myths, then Original Sin is also a myth, right? Well, think about it.

Jesus’ major purpose was to save mankind from Original Sin.Original Sin makes believers unworthy of salvation, but you get it anyway, so you should be grateful for being saved (from that which does not exist)Without Original Sin, the marketing that all people are sinners and therefore need to accept Jesus falls moot.

All we are asking is that you take what*you know*into serious consideration, even if it means taking a hard look at all you’ve been taught for your whole life. No Adam and Eve means no need for a savior. It also means that the Bible cannot be trusted as a source of unambiguous, literal truth. It is completely unreliable, because it all begins with a myth, and builds on that as a basis. No Fall of Man means no need for atonement and no need for a redeemer. You know it.

A Christian Apologist Answers
Joe Boot, President of Ezra Institute for Contemporary Christianity

“Since the doctrines of Creation, the Fall and Redemption stand in an absolute historical continuum, we get a distorted worldview when we play games with Genesis.

“The apologist seeks to present biblical truth with coherence. In my experience, one cannot even formulate a compelling response to classic questions like the problem of evil and pain without a clear stand with Scripture on the creation issue.

“I have never been able to see how anyone who wants to defend the faith and proclaim the Gospel can compromise the foundation stones of that defence and then expect clear-thinking people to find a proclamation of salvation in Christ compelling.”


A Prof / PhD Biblical Studies Answers

Dr. Tom Wang says "Often, people will use the old argument that we should concentrate on preaching the Gospel, rather than get distracted by ‘side-issues’ such as Creation. But if we cannot believe the record of Creation, then why believe the record of the New Creation (‘if anyone is in Christ, he is a New Creation; the old is gone, the new has come’—2 Corinthians 5:17)?”


An Historian Answers (Prof with 2 PhD's)

Dr Benno Zuiddam“God created this world in a very short period of time, under ten thousand years ago. Whether you read Irenaeus in the 2nd*century, Basil in the 4th, Augustine in the 5th, Thomas Aquinas in the 13th, the Reformers of the 16th*century, or Pope Pius X in the 19th, they all teach this. They all believed in a good creation and God’s curse striking the earth—and the whole creation—after the disobedience of a literal Adam and Eve.”


A Biologist Answers

Dr Georgia Purdom says "many Christians have compromised on the historical and theological importance of Genesis. If Adam and Eve aren’t real people who sinned in the Garden of Eden, and as a result we are all not sinners, then Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was useless. ...the*literal truth of Genesis is so important to the authority and truthfulness of Scripture. It is the very foundation of the Gospel."


Our Creator Answers

JESUS speaking*"Haven't you read the Scriptures?They record that from the beginning 'God made them male and female.'"


So, again the question is, how can you (why would you?) squeeze millions of years into Gods Word without compromising the Gospel?
 

Mark SeaSigh

BANNED
Banned
Learn some manners, or don't expect me to reply in the future.

Stuart

I don't expect you to Reply and answer Questions, that you don't understand; thereby not knowing the Answer or Reason for the Questions in the First Place.

=M=

Creationists!!!!

Be Strong, Be Strong, Be Strong Again!!!

The Theory of Evolution has Fallen!!!
We have Won!!!

Behold Your Servants Lord! The Kingdom of God is At Hand, your Servants are Here!

Praise Be to God!!!
 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Stuart,

Give it up man. Mark is overwhelming you with evidence and structural support. What exactly do you need? A house to fall on you like the wicked witch of the east??

Michael
 

6days

New member
If only you could bring yourself to take Galileo's advice.

Stuart
Yes... Don't accept ideas that conflict with scripture. Church leaders can be wrong... 'science' of the day can be wrong... God's Word will never be wrong.
 

Stuu

New member
Dear Stuart,

Give it up man. Mark is overwhelming you with evidence and structural support. What exactly do you need? A house to fall on you like the wicked witch of the east??
Neither of you actually know what evolution by natural selection is.

So who are you to even comment on it?

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
I don't expect you to Reply and answer Questions, that you don't understand; thereby not knowing the Answer or Reason for the Questions in the First Place.
Just as long as you are prepared at least not to indulge in childish name-calling with me. You might care to take the same approach with others, too.

Creationists!!!!

Be Strong, Be Strong, Be Strong Again!!!

The Theory of Evolution has Fallen!!!
We have Won!!!
Sounds desperate.

But creationism lost so long ago that no one even remembers.

Read about William Paley's Watchmaker Argument. That is essentially what you have been putting forward most recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

Stuart
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Entropy, the fact that all things that are of Order, are working towards maximum Entropy, proves that Order works to Disorder in the Universe.

No. It is not about order/disorder. Further, the evidence shows, as Christian theologians wrote, that the universe has moved from disorder to order. Mountains rise up, hurricanes form, river systems develop, plants grow, and many other complex systems form as a consequence of a few natural laws. No mere designer could make a universe in which this happens. You need a Creator, not your "space alien" designer.

Which means, Unless acted upon by an Outside force, all things in the Universe, are moving from Order to Disorder.

See above. God is a lot smarter than you're willing to let Him be.

That Proves that the Order in the Universe, to Exist, Requires an All Powerful Designer.

Nope. No sign of a designer. But as St. Paul writes, the universe is stamped with the imprint of a Creator.

Learn the difference and you won't hate science anymore.
 
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