Creation vs. Evolution II

Greg Jennings

New member
You answered this yourself Greg. Didn't you say that coelacanths and humans are not found in the same layer because they live in different environments?
Humans and fish are found in different environments.

Rabbits and dinosaurs both inhabit(ed) grasslands and forests. Why wouldn't we find their bones together?

So, are you saying it isn't unusual in the evolutionary paradigm to have no fossil evidence for 65 million years as with coelacanths?

It's a belief based on logic and evidence. This belief system is far more 'scientific' than the atheist beliefs such as nothing created everything, or our bodies are full of useless vestiges, etc.

Thats a whopper. There are few human fossils, and its quite possible they are all post-flood.
You have provided a couple possible answers already.

You are dodging.

Cows and dinosaurs and rabbits and dogs and humans all lived in the same environments. Why are there no dinosaur fossils ever found with any of these modern animals?

We have found human/dog/cow remains with many other extinct creatures, such as sabre-tooth cats and giant armadillos, but none alongside dinosaurs. Why?
 

6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
Humans and fish are found in different environments.
Rabbits and dinosaurs both inhabit(ed) grasslands and forests. Why wouldn't we find their bones together?
You already answered this yourself Greg.*

You in general are agreeing with the global flood model that marine organisms will be found mostly in the lower layers. You also agree that organisms have lived through many supposed geological eras without fossil evidence.*
Greg Jennings said:
Cows and dinosaurs and rabbits and dogs and humans all lived in the same environments. Why are there no dinosaur fossils ever found with any of these modern animals?*
You answered yourself Greg. Or, at least you suggested a couple possible answers. Not finding a fossilized organism in any particular layer does not mean it did not exist. *You seem to believe coelacanths lived the past 65 million years without fossilization. (There are examples of more than 200 million years according to evolutionary dating)


What the fossil record shows is sudden appearance of the created kinds. We see evidence of complex sophisticated designs. And we see evidence throughout the world of a catastrophic flood. The evidence is consistent with the Biblical record.*
 

Greg Jennings

New member
You already answered this yourself Greg.*

You in general are agreeing with the global flood model that marine organisms will be found mostly in the lower layers. You also agree that organisms have lived through many supposed geological eras without fossil evidence.*
You answered yourself Greg. Or, at least you suggested a couple possible answers. Not finding a fossilized organism in any particular layer does not mean it did not exist. *You seem to believe coelacanths lived the past 65 million years without fossilization. (There are examples of more than 200 million years according to evolutionary dating)


What the fossil record shows is sudden appearance of the created kinds. We see evidence of complex sophisticated designs. And we see evidence throughout the world of a catastrophic flood. The evidence is consistent with the Biblical record.*

You're not making sense. Mammals have bones that are preserved reasonably well in the right conditions. Suggesting that for thousands of years the bones of every single mammal just disappeared is silly.

In YOUR "theory" rabbits, humans, dogs, cats, cows, lions, squirrels, hippos, elephants, rhinos and on and on lived alongside dinosaurs, yet there is not one single modern mammal EVER found with a dinosaur. We find many many species alongside dinosaurs, but none are modern. Why?

That's a stake through the heart for your "theory", which relies on the assumption that all animal types existed on Earth together.
 

6days

New member
Cows and dinosaurs and rabbits and dogs and humans all lived in the same environments. Why are there no dinosaur fossils ever found with any of these modern animals?

We have found human/dog/cow remains with many other extinct creatures, such as sabre-tooth cats and giant armadillos, but none alongside dinosaurs. Why?
Keep asking... I will keep pointing out that YOU provided a couple possible answers. And, I will keep pointing out that the fossil record provides great evidence for the truth of scripture. Also...in an*article published in 1998 in Science:

Paleontologists rarely look for mammalian fossils in rocks formed during the Cretaceous period. With luck paleontologists may reconsider, and start looking in these previously neglected strata for mammal fossils during the time of the dinosaurs.

With luck, they may reconsider? That doesn't sound very scientific at all! But guess what: whey they looked for these fossils, they found them.....


http://evolutionissues.com/dinosaurs-modern-mammals-birds-coexisted.php
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Keep asking... I will keep pointing out that YOU provided a couple possible answers. And, I will keep pointing out that the fossil record provides great evidence for the truth of scripture. Also...in an*article published in 1998 in Science:

Paleontologists rarely look for mammalian fossils in rocks formed during the Cretaceous period. With luck paleontologists may reconsider, and start looking in these previously neglected strata for mammal fossils during the time of the dinosaurs.

With luck, they may reconsider? That doesn't sound very scientific at all! But guess what: whey they looked for these fossils, they found them.....


http://evolutionissues.com/dinosaurs-modern-mammals-birds-coexisted.php

That is completely ridiculous. Do you think that while looking for dinosaurs, they just ignore every other bone they find? If that was true, then why have they found any mammal fossils with dinosaurs at all? Why wouldn't they just ignore those too?

Do you think that they can't recognize a cow skull amongst a bunch of dinosaur femurs? Or a human jaw? Or a dog vertebrae? Do you really think professionals are this stupid?

This. Is. Getting. Pathetic.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Yes, sometimes. But sometimes the fossil dates the rock according to evolutionary assumptions. And, sometimes the rock dates the fossil.(circular reasoning). I recently provided an example of this where dates were adjusted by...um, if memory is correct by 200 million years.
No, the rocks were originally observed 100-200 years ago to have different fossil assemblages in different rock layers. When radiometric dating techniques were developed, they used them to date the different rock layers so that a number could be put on how old they were.

Lo and behold, there was a steady chronological progression amongst the rock layers according to radiometric dating, confirming the hypothesis that different faunal assemblages in rock layers are indicators of great changes in the Earth's age
 

6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
6days said:
sometimes the fossil dates the rock according to evolutionary assumptions. And, sometimes the rock dates the fossil.(circular reasoning). I recently provided an example of this where dates were adjusted by...um, if memory is correct by 200 million years.
No, the rocks were originally observed 100-200 years ago to have different fossil assemblages in different rock layers. When radiometric dating techniques were developed, they used them to date the different rock layers so that a number could be put on how old they were.
Now the real story...
*The rocks were dated 48 years ago between 212-230MY.
*No fossils were observed.
Greg Jennings said:
Lo and behold, there was a steady chronological progression amongst the rock layers according to radiometric dating
* Lo and behold, Leaky found a skull in those rocks 3 years later he ASSIGNED a date of 2.9 MY
* Lo and behold, the rocks were redated now at 2.61 MY
* Lo and behold the game of evolutionary dating was still not over. Some determined the skull looked too modern to be 2.61MY so now the rocks were assigned a date of 1.9
* And later...a new assigned date of 1.8 was given.

So, the fossil dated the rocks....the rocks dated the fossils. Dating results were sought out that agreed with evolutionary assumptions....and they still ended up assigning dates. Evolutionists would to this day still be happy with the date of over 200 million years for the rocks had the fossils not been found.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Now the real story...
*The rocks were dated 48 years ago between 212-230MY.
*No fossils were observed.

* Lo and behold, Leaky found a skull in those rocks 3 years later he ASSIGNED a date of 2.9 MY
* Lo and behold, the rocks were redated now at 2.61 MY
* Lo and behold the game of evolutionary dating was still not over. Some determined the skull looked too modern to be 2.61MY so now the rocks were assigned a date of 1.9
* And later...a new assigned date of 1.8 was given.

So, the fossil dated the rocks....the rocks dated the fossils. Dating results were sought out that agreed with evolutionary assumptions....and they still ended up assigning dates. Evolutionists would to this day still be happy with the date of over 200 million years for the rocks had the fossils not been found.


Dear 6days,

It's time to change the subject, I suppose! I guess Hedshaker and Silent Hunter don't realize that their ban has been lifted. I will PM them both, I think!

These are the best times for our generation of Adam and Eve, to be alive during the Return of Jesus!! I guess you can't be joyful because you don't know it for a fact, and I do! You don't know that the first angel that visited me said, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the 'hour' of His judgment is come upon all of the Earth, and worship Him Who made the Heaven and Earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters!" I was sorely amazed and could not take my eyes away from watching the angel because I'd never seen one before and might never see one again. And when he spoke, his voice boomed and echoed resoundingly filling up my parent's bedroom. I was fasting to God to give Him a gift for having visited me 10 days earlier. I thought first to sacrifice an animal, but didn't see that happening. Then I thought of fasting to give Him a gift that way.

Well, it was quite a night. I asked my Mom if we could have a meeting at our house for my family and my best friend's family, and she said okay. So I asked my new girlfriend, Salli, to come by the house for a meeting and she arrived first. My littlest sister, Lila, we let her sleep through the night. Well, will close for now. Realize that this is the time. Look at the world and see what is going on. No peace, just wars and rumors of wars, and look at Israel. They want her to rezone their land to give up the West Bank, etc. Didn't Jesus say that when you see all nations against Israel, know that the time is near. Everyone in the United Nations is rallying against Israel, including the United States. Just cause of Obama, having the U.S. vote against Israel in the upcoming UN meeting this month, I believe. Well, I've got to get going for now, Next time I post something here, I will mention what the 2nd angel said to me. This is enough. Be Exceeding Joyful Right Now!!

Much Love, In His Holy Name,

Michael
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Now the real story...
*The rocks were dated 48 years ago between 212-230MY.
*No fossils were observed.

* Lo and behold, Leaky found a skull in those rocks 3 years later he ASSIGNED a date of 2.9 MY
* Lo and behold, the rocks were redated now at 2.61 MY
* Lo and behold the game of evolutionary dating was still not over. Some determined the skull looked too modern to be 2.61MY so now the rocks were assigned a date of 1.9
* And later...a new assigned date of 1.8 was given.

So, the fossil dated the rocks....the rocks dated the fossils. Dating results were sought out that agreed with evolutionary assumptions....and they still ended up assigning dates.

The margin of error for radiometric dating is 2-5% currently. The example you used above is a bit more than that. I'd like you to post a link about the skull in question so I can examine your claims. From a credible source, if you would: a creationist source asserting something without corroboration won't show anything.

However, any date of over 10,000 years violates your "theory." So you using a 1.8 myo skull to try and lend credence to a 10,000 year old creation myth is a little funny
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Yes...the difference between 1.9 million and 230 million years is "a bit more" than 2-5%!

Here is another example..... This one only 30%
http://phys.org/news/2012-05-faster-ticking-clock-early-solar-evolved.html

That article is about the age of the universe, not about dating rock layers. Even so, it says this: "The new time scale, interestingly, is now consistent with a recent and precise dating made on a lunar rock and is in better agreement with the dating obtained with other chronometers."
The source goes on to say that only the first few hundred million years (out of 13+ billion) are impacted by this finding. It's significant (and VERY interesting thanks) but not really related to what we were talking about

I'm going to have to ask for some source corroboration for your other claim (the 1.8 myo skull). I can't just take your word on it
 

Greg Jennings

New member
I think I'll join in the anti-global flood fun:

Here is a picture of a meandering stream:
800px-Rio-cauto-cuba.JPG


Here is a picture of the Grand Canyon (which according to YECreationists was created in the flood):
aerial-grand-canyon.jpg


And here is another of the Canyon from very high up:
Fashion-Elephant-Ronald-James-Grand-Canyon-from-Space-0001-960x640.jpg



It's clear that a stream cut the Grand Canyon
 

6days

New member
Greg Jennings said:
....but not really related to what we were talking about
Of course you deny its related. We were talking about how dating of fossils and rocks is sometimes simply an assigned date to fit a belief system. We were talking about how radiometric dates from labs are rejected if it isn't consistent with evolutionary beliefs. And we were talking about how the 'error' factor can be much greater than 5% you werw blowing smoke about.

Greg Jennings said:
I'm going to have to ask for some source corroboration for your other claim (the 1.8 myo skull). I can't just take your word on it
Perhaps you should have asked for that before jumping in with nonsense comments. I had mentioned I posted the story recently (along with links). Why did you pretend you knew what you were talking about, rather than to ask for a post number? Now.... you do the search if you wish.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear All,

It all started with me working at a large supermarket called Great Scott. I was just recently promoted to night shift, which paid better and was a snap. We would sleep on the register conveyor belts, for a couple hours. Then we would look for something to eat. Then do our jobs. I had to stock the baby food aisle and the cereal aisle. It took some doing. Back in those days, we had to put a price tag on every item in the aisles. And stock the shelves taking the older cereals in front of the newer cereals, etc. to rotate the groceries.

Anyway, I was stocking the syrups and suddenly felt something behind me, like someone standing over me. I pondered for a minute about it because I didn't have the time to think about it. I had to concentrate on stocking the food, because we wasted a lot of time sleeping and eating, previously. So I thought of it, and just pondered a half minute and then got back to work

Once done, I left after work to drive my new girlfriend to school. I went to pick her up and chatted with her stepmom while Salli was getting ready to go to school. Then, I drove to school. Once at the school, I looked deeply in her eyes and saw so much love in there for me, and suddenly I was told that I was looking at the Spirit of God within her, and I didn't say anything at the time to her.

Once we left the vestibule in the school, we went in and saw about 5 our friends standing in a circle by the water fountains, and we went to speak with them. All of a sudden, I heard my one friend say 'how he was doing,' and I thought what he was saying before he said it. I did the same thing to everyone else and I heard their thoughts before they spoke them audibly with their mouths. I was 'reading minds.' But it was the Lord telling me that in Heaven, that is how they spoke. By speaking the words in my head at the same time as each friend was saying it. I'm having a hard time explaining it, but the Lord said that is how they spoke in Heaven because, as spirits with no mouth or body, you can't speak with no mouth.

Now, we were very nervous when I was leaving our friends, and Salli and I didn't speak all the way to her first class. We just didn't need to speak. I left after dropping her off at her class. Then I went home and went to lie down in bed to go to sleep during the daytime, because I was working night shift. About 5 minutes of laying down, all of a sudden, I felt the strong presence of someone in the room with me. I started trembling and saw my heart beating and my chest rising by my heart. I realized that I was having a heart attack and I thought to call a doctor, but then figured he could not get there in time. Then, I thought of calling my Mother who was in the Family Room down the hall, but figured she couldn't help me. Then I thought of praying to God and ask for help.

I prayed 'please God, help me to live through this and survive to tell my friends and family about what I was going through.' All of a sudden, a loud, commanding, and powerful voice spoke to me in the room, and He said, "Calm yourself, and think of those you love." I instantly knew it is was the Lord's voice, and I quickly tried to do what He said, knowing I probably would not live through the heart attack otherwise. I thought of my mother and my best friend, Rick Brewer, and all I could only imagine them with angry faces and eyes that appeared like fire, and I did not understand that, because it had never happened before.

I started crying and was trembling strongly, and I heard His voice say, "Get your wallet and look upon the faces of those you love." So I hurried out of my bed and grabbed my wallet and opened it. When I looked at their pictures, I saw angry faces with eyes like fire, and realized that the pictures never looked like those before and then I realized it was the devil causing the pictures to be distorted. I then fell onto the bed and was crying uncontrollably, and my heart was beating and I was shaking exceedingly. Once again, I heard the Lord's voice saying, "Call in your Mother."

All of a sudden, I tried to call for my Mother and started hearing the devil say, 'don't call your Mother and get her involved in all of this, and also that my Mother didn't love me.' Well, I knew those were lies and then realized that the devil was fighting for my soul. I went to call in my Mom and could not get any audible words to her. I was so terrified and was not able to get a loud voice to my Mom. I remembered what God said, and kept calling my Mom over and over, until my voice was finally audible and each time got loud enough for her to hear me. She came running into my room and said, "Michael, Michael, what's wrong, what's wrong." Well, I did not know what to tell her because I barely understood what had happened to me, and didn't think she'd understand if I told her everything, so I said, "I thought you didn't love me," even though I knew she did love me. She rocked my head in her lap until I finally fell asleep.

After I awakened, I was ecstatic and on cloud nine, that the Lord had visited me and spoke to me. I was so full of joy and did not even remember the devil or any of it, because my mind was full of love and happiness that it had all happened. Little did I realize that it was only the beginning of a long road and journey. I had three angels speak to me, the first angel was ten days after the Lord visited me, and then the second was a week after the first, and the 3rd angel was another week later. I'll have to go into that at another time. I've got to get going for now, because I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow.

God Bless You All. Don't Think Too Much!! Ponder Slowly And With Love Inside,

Michael
 
Last edited:

Greg Jennings

New member
Of course you deny its related. We were talking about how dating of fossils and rocks is sometimes simply an assigned date to fit a belief system. We were talking about how radiometric dates from labs are rejected if it isn't consistent with evolutionary beliefs. And we were talking about how the 'error' factor can be much greater than 5% you werw blowing smoke about.

Perhaps you should have asked for that before jumping in with nonsense comments. I had mentioned I posted the story recently (along with links). Why did you pretend you knew what you were talking about, rather than to ask for a post number? Now.... you do the search if you wish.

Can you corroborate your 1.8 myo skull story? Or are you just dodging dishonestly? This is now the third time I've had to ask for a source. A post number will do fine
 

Lon

Well-known member
So, you agree that "god" is an abstraction wholly dependent upon believers such as yourself to give it meaning? (Which you go on to describe.)
No, that's egocentrism, Quip. I've already explained why: you and others are only interested in yourselves and your own thoughts. It must be a lonely universe for you....and disappointing where only your thoughts matter. Truth can't exist in that kind of world. The rest of us live as if truth is unchanging and constant.

Sounds to me that your philosophizing is no different than mine...save the respective objects of each's desire.
There are similarities and differences. I for instance, 'know' there is a God. How I know will not be the same way you remain agnostic or atheist. Can't as a matter of fact. Remember there are few atheists in this world and there is a 'reason' for this so "no" you and I philosophize differently. Scripture says a man that denies there is a God does so 'foolishly.' I concur with that because for all practical purposes, God is very evident in the universe (Einstein called atheism "lame" for 'good reason').
 

Lon

Well-known member
I don’t see much relevance of what you posted to what I said, so I will leave most of it without comment. Maybe others can see the connection that I missed.

I will comment on your final statement. Let me move what you said into a less academic setting.

I presume we can agree that the best thing for the students would be to maximize their “learning” during the time they are in school.

Now presume that in the course of a routine physical exam your doctor tells you that you have contracted a rare life-threatening malady. Surely you would want the best of the best treatment to save your life. But that is kinda what we want the students to have as well – the best of the best understanding of how to treat your illness. So, you have a choice. You can avail yourself of the services of an expert in your disease – a person who has spent decades (after grad school) studying, treating, understanding the disease, or you can follow the regimen you allude to – “the better academic approach” – by giving the data to a class of medical students and letting them engage in a spirited debate over how to save your life. If you opt for the experienced expert for your treatments, isn’t the expertise of that person what should be taught to the class?

Obviously this does not preclude the students from discussing the expert’s approach, but in fact students simply do not have the breadth of knowledge that comes only from years of hand-on experience in the field.

This sounds more like your musings over the matter than a completed reasoned response. "If" you describe something well, you don't have to worry about the term or lack thereof where people differ. It is no coincidence that the majority of people of on the planet still question evolutionary theory: again because of lack and failed explanation. The majority of the planet did not, in fact, believe the earth was flat. THAT comparison also falls flat. We need to be 'thinking' individuals. Despite how smart, doctors believe they are, I still don't uncritically do what a lot of them suggest simply because they have and do make mistakes with me. Think of better analogy: The better doctor tends to listen to his/her patients. Without bedside manner, doctors don't last long.
 
Top