ShadowMaid
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I don't understand your comment.
Could you please explain?
Courtship vs. Dating
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I don't understand your comment.
Could you please explain?Originally posted by ShadowMaid
I don't understand your comment.
If I didn't already know, I would be able to tell by that statement alone that you were home-schooled. I can safely say that more than half of the lies I've heard people my age tell were to their parents, with the rest split between their peers and other authority figures. Maybe it's different in your family, and I think that's wonderful, but most parents have no idea what their children are up to or often even who they really are.
ShadowMaid
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So we are talking about society now? O.K.
If the public schools didn't teach the kids to lie like that to their parents, it wouldn't be such a norm.
Actually, the only person I've met(outside of TOL) that was home-schooled is a habitual liar and something of a moron. His parents didn't care enough to teach him any morals. Thus he learned them
from them from the outside world. Parental involvement is the key factor in developing morals in a child, not whether or not they went to public school. I wouldn't blame it on the schools. Even parents who send their kids to those evil public skills could instill values in their children when they're not at school, if they would take the effort.
But how much time do the kids really get to spend with their parents? They have to spend five or six hours a day (not counting weekends, of course,) in the classroom, under the authority of teachers who may or may not try to "develop morals." Public school students also have to spend an average of two hours each evening on homework. Plus the hours spent in the classroom, that leaves a student four hours only, on average, to spend with their family per twelve-hour waking day. This is not counting time spent in transit to and from the school, extracurricular activities, and field trips.
Which do you think would make the bigger impression? The parents, or the school?
Which do you think would make the bigger impression? The parents, or the school?
The parents. Schools generally try to promote things like honesty and showing up on time(i.e. through punishments for cheating and being late, respectively). However, they cannot as much time teaching morals as would be best because they have more of an obligation teaching math, science, et al. Parents generally have the time but lack the inclination to spend time teaching their child right from wrong. They wrongly assume public schools will do it all for them despite the fact that studies have shown time and time again that parents are a bigger influence on their children than teachers, other authority figures, and even their peers.
ShadowMaid
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Is that your final answer?
My father spent 27 years as a teacher in the public school system, and he says he could count on one hand the number of students during that period which he could tell were Christians by their actions. The rest just blended right in with all the other students. Thus we can conclude that the school environment, the teachers, and the "peers" made the greater impression. Also, which studies are you referring to? Read the Shema. See what it says about teaching children.Originally posted by Elaine
Anecdotal evidence and an unquoted book make a poor basis for any conclusion. I was referring to government studies thata show that parent's are the biggest influence in whether a kid smokes or does drug. These tests were so conclusive that recent television campaigns against cigarette and drug use focus on the parents even more than the teenagers.
There were also studies cited in my high school psychology book that came to the same conclusion. Unfortuneately I had to turn in my old textbooks after graduating. This may be just as well since, despite their being peer reviewed and subject to stringent criteria before being used they were from those "evil" public schools and you might not have accepted anything in them as evidence.
In case that's not enough, here's what a few experts have to say:
Yet an inborn sense of empathy is just a starting point, says William Damon, a developmental psychologist at Stanford University. "
Friends can affect a child's moral thinking, but parents are the most powerful force, Damon says. "Usually if kids have a stable influence with their parents, they'll end up in the long run choosing the right peers, and they'll be on the same page."
Most children ages 5 or 6 have developed the basic components of conscience, a sense of guilt, the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, and the capability to be empathetic. But none of these elements of a child's moral development will become fully functional for years.
This in-between period is the ideal time for laying a solid moral foundation, says an educator at North Dakota State University. And what group of adults is best suited for that job? Parents, the first moral teachers and role models young children have.
"At this early age, parents have an opportunity to begin teaching a respect for life and for others," says Helen Danielson, extension child development specialist at North Dakota State University. "This teaching occurs as parents explain and reason with their children. It is through this process that you pass on your morals and beliefs."
This one's from Judith G. Smetana of the University of Rochester and was printed in the Journal of Moral Education:
"Parents are centrally important by virtue of their concern with their child's development and welfare, their affective relationship and extensive interaction history with their child, and their ability to provide the types of interactions that facilitate moral development."
This one is from a website with notes from a college class in the University of Idaho.
"It has become traditional in developmental psychology to consider that the personality of the child is the result of his upbringing" (Baldwin 539). In all of my own personal observations, this quote from Alfred L. Baldwin, professor of psychology at the New York University, rings very true. Ask yourself with whom do you spend most of your time? Your family members are the people around you for the majority of your earlier years. For the eighteen or nineteen years that they have you in thier[sic] grasp, they are secretly plotting your future in the values that they teach you and the pressure that they put on you. Whether you realize it or not, your parents, most likely, have already determined your future.
I'm sorry they weren't better organized, but I had about 5 minutes to find these and put them here before having to go to work.
P.S. Isn't it rude to roll your eyes at an elder and so much like something a public school student would do!
When the "anecdotal evidence" comes firsthand from my father, instead of being strained through the news media and other sources, I, for one, am willing to trust it.
Unquoted book? Don't you know the Shema is Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (at least the part I'm referring to)?
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates."
I'm talking about morals, not smoking and doing drugs. I still would like the specific studies, though, if they could be provided.
:doh: No fear of that. I use a public school math textbook...hey!! When did I say that I thought public school books were "evil?"
Yes, but how many public school kids have a "stable influence with their parents?"
Actually, if they aren't trained up by their parents from an early age, a child's senses of guilt and right from wrong will become dulled, like an unused muscle that is beginning to atrophy. Now, if the child spends most of its time away from the influence of its parents...
:thumb: Exactly. That's why their parents should teach them all the time.
And how can you pass them on, if you can't spend much time at it?
Again, that's why parents teaching their children is so important. Now, what do you suppose happens when a child spends time under the authority of someone with a different set of values? Especially with a young child, what are they going to do if a teacher tries to push their system of beliefs?
Prof. Baldwin has not taken into account school time...
I thought you did pretty well, considering.
:shocked: Didn't your parents teach you not to wink at girls?!? How old are you, anyway, Zimfan?P.S. Isn't it rude to roll your eyes at an elder and so much like something a public school student would do!
Originally posted by Elaine
When the "anecdotal evidence" comes firsthand from my father, instead of being strained through the news media and other sources, I, for one, am willing to trust it.
Unquoted book? Don't you know the Shema is Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (at least the part I'm referring to)?
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates."
I'm talking about morals, not smoking and doing drugs. I still would like the specific studies, though, if they could be provided.
You don't believe doing drugs is a moral issue? Also, their is a fine Jewish tradition of trained rabbis teaching the kids such things as Deuteronomy, not just parents, who may not understand completely.
:doh: No fear of that. I use a public school math textbook...hey!! When did I say that I thought public school books were "evil?"
Yes, but how many public school kids have a "stable influence with their parents?"
It is not the influence of the fellow students, but that of the parents that have the largest effect on how a kid ends up.
Actually, if they aren't trained up by their parents from an early age, a child's senses of guilt and right from wrong will become dulled, like an unused muscle that is beginning to atrophy. Now, if the child spends most of its time away from the influence of its parents...
:thumb: Exactly. That's why their parents should teach them all the time.
However, not all parents can. Sometimes, parents have to both work to support their children. Mine did, and I believe I am stronger for it.
And how can you pass them on, if you can't spend much time at it?
Again, that's why parents teaching their children is so important. Now, what do you suppose happens when a child spends time under the authority of someone with a different set of values? Especially with a young child, what are they going to do if a teacher tries to push their system of beliefs?
Parents are still the earliest and biggest influence on their children.What if that teacher is a zoroastrian, or muslim? There are still things to be learned from that person that couldn't be learned elsewhere. I believe a kid shoudl be introduced to as many viewpoints as possible and decide from them what to believe. One will still spend more time with one's parents than any one or two peers no matter how one is schooled.
I thought you did pretty well, considering.
:shocked: Didn't your parents teach you not to wink at girls?!? How old are you, anyway, Zimfan?
I'm only twenty. Still, from what I know that is 50% percent older than I believe you are(about 14 I guess?). You are very intelligent for such a young woman. The only point I'm trying to make is that no matter what type of schooling one has, it's how parents interact with a child outside of school that matters most in a child's development. Parents who home school generally have more interest in how their kids turn out that those who don't and are often better parents. I am trying to say that it's important that pblic schools are around for parents who both have tp work and that sending their kids to a public school is no excuse for how they turn out, not that public schooling is better than home schooling. I hear too many people complain about public schools and using them as a scapegoat. They can only teach morals that most in our society agree on,. I f they took more of an interest in the moral development of children even more people would complain that that isn't how they would teach their children
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:hammer: Actually, I do. Sorry, but it was late when I wrote that. :yawn: I was referring a little more to the Ten Commandments as well, though drugs would work, too.
Which is not a good tradition, IMO, since the verse is obviously commanding the parents to do it. They should study it to understand it.
:nono: I know that's not true if a kid spends most of their time under the influence of other students. I have (at least) two cousins whose parents took them to church, tried to teach them morals, and sent them to the public school. One is now into far eastern religions. The other calls himself a "Christian agnostic" and confesses that the public schools are what shook his faith.
Most parents could sacrifice something to be able to have at least one of them teach the children. And, both parents working does not make home education an impossibility. My mom stays at home, while my dad works two days a week, part time, and we get along fine. Dad teaches us most of the time. Two other homeschooling families we know have both parents working, but the kids can pretty much teach themselves or get along with help from one parent. Thanks to the children's staying at home more, their parents can still teach them and they don't have to be immersed in the public school system.
Then most children are too weak to combat any "witnessing" which that person might do. That's one of the reasons my father decided to homeschool. One of the science teachers which my sister and I would have had to deal with was a very staunch humanist and evolutionist. Also, the elementary gym teacher was a lesbian. I think the parents are the ones who should teach their kids about things like that, particularly at such a young age.
Like what, how to call up demons during "meditation?" How to "tolerate" homosexuality and anything which is an abomination unto God? Any sort of good which could possibly be gotten out of such an experience could be better taught from the proper viewpoint by the child's parents.
I believe a kid's parents should introduce the child to as many viewpoints as possible from a Christian perspective and then show them what is wrong with those viewpoints according to God's Word. I know my parents have.
If my father worked full-time, I would only get to see him on the weekends (if I attended public school.) He works second shift. If my mother worked, too, as so many mothers do, I probably wouldn't get to see her very much, either. And what about the teachers in the public schools?
Close enough...:chuckle:
That's just what I am trying to say.
I would want to homeschool my children to make sure that they got the right morals, etc. A job like that is too important to give to anyone else. Of course the public schools aren't an excuse! It's the parent's fault that they sent their children to it in the first place.
I think we need teachers for the same reason we need pastors. pastors are experts when it comes to the bible and moral teaching. Teaching faith starts at home, but it's still good to take your kids to church. Teachers are experts in the filed they teach. Even a lot of the home-schooling parents I've talked to here say that if a parent feels unqualified to teach a certain class they often get help from a local college or friend who knows the subject better.I don't think the issue here is whether or not the profession of teaching is a valuable and moral one. I would hope that that is self-evident. The issue is whether the influence of peer groups for kids who go to public school is greater than that of their parents. I'd also note that as Christians we are not under the Law.
:nono: More anecdotal evidence. I went to public school and while my faith was briefly shaken it came out stronger than ever in the end. All of the Christians I've met off of TOL went to public schools and I've never heard any story like that from them. What exactly was it that was taught by the school that shook his faith? Was it the students?
My parents couldn't. I don't think it was through any fault of theirs. Growing up in Pittsburg I knew very few people who could pay the bills without both parents working.
Originally posted by Elaine [/QUOTE]Then most children are too weak to combat any "witnessing" which that person might do. That's one of the reasons my father decided to homeschool. One of the science teachers which my sister and I would have had to deal with was a very staunch humanist and evolutionist. Also, the elementary gym teacher was a lesbian. I think the parents are the ones who should teach their kids about things like that, particularly at such a young age. [/QUOTE]
If the parents taught their children well their faith wouldn't be so weak as to crumble merely by being in the presence of a homosexual or humanist. I've never met a teacher who taught his/her faith in class, or tried to coerce children into believing what he/she did.
Originally posted by Elaine [/QUOTE] Like what, how to call up demons during "meditation?" How to "tolerate" homosexuality and anything which is an abomination unto God? Any sort of good which could possibly be gotten out of such an experience could be better taught from the proper viewpoint by the child's parents.[/QUOTE]
No teacher ever told me how to call up demons, though I had a karate instructor who showed me how to meditate. He was a Christian. Meditating on the glory of God is an admirable thing to do and something many ministers do. Even if You're merely trying to clear your mind of distractions that isn't immoral in and of itself.
Originally posted by Elaine [/QUOTE] I believe a kid's parents should introduce the child to as many viewpoints as possible from a Christian perspective and then show them what is wrong with those viewpoints according to God's Word. I know my parents have. [/QUOTE]
That's exactly what the parents should do. They should explain what they believe and why. They should also tell the child what they disagree with and why. Mine did, and my faith was never so weak as to crumble by being in a classroom or talking to people who didn't believe as I did.
Originally posted by Elaine [/QUOTE]If my father worked full-time, I would only get to see him on the weekends (if I attended public school.) He works second shift. If my mother worked, too, as so many mothers do, I probably wouldn't get to see her very much, either. And what about the teachers in the public schools? [/QUOTE]
Teachers do not teach their religious beliefs.
Originally posted by Elaine [/QUOTE]I would want to homeschool my children to make sure that they got the right morals, etc. A job like that is too important to give to anyone else. Of course the public schools aren't an excuse! It's the parent's fault that they sent their children to it in the first place. [/QUOTE]
How dare the parents be poor! How dare they think that trained people should teach their children about things like math and science! They're evil, evil I tell you! :chuckle:
There are good reasons both to home-school and to send kids to public school. In the end it's the parents decision, and I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their children. The real problem is that many parents who send their kids to public school are just lazy and don't want to work to instill ethics in their children. They think they can just pack their kids off to school and that the school will do everything for them. It doesn't work that way and it's about time people realized that.
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erinmarie
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Although I will homeschool my daughters, I went to a public school, (a large one, albeit not very diverse). I believe that everything I took from my classes, friends and experiences at public school were very positive and helpful. I had a much better education than most of the othe girls at the college I attended and not only that, but was very well equipped to deal with the crowded campus, and people of different religions, cultures and beliefs. My mother, the great and wonderful stay at home mom that she is, was not equipped to give me the extensive education I recieved in high school. And although I did not finish college I believe that I am an aware, moral and good person, equipped to face situations that require tact, understanding and the general acceptance you have to have to be in this world today. You're children will meet Homosexuals, atheists, buddhists, people of all different types of cultures, races, beliefs. If they are not aware of them, if they are not taught to love and be accepting of all people, what happens when they leave your loving protection to enter the world that will not accomodate they're ignorance? I'm not saying that homeschooling is wrong, quite the contrary. What i am stating is that there HAS to be some happy medium when you homeschool children, so that they will be aware and up to speed with public school students in the matters of education AND public awareness.
LightSon
New member
"Christian agnostic"?
There's a handle I've not heard before; sounds rather oxymoronic.
I refuse to believe Elaine is only 14. 14 year olds don't have such adept polemical skills, unless they are possess a high degree of precocity.
Anyway, if Elaine is a typical example of what home schooling can produce, I say let’s home school everybody.
There's a handle I've not heard before; sounds rather oxymoronic.
I refuse to believe Elaine is only 14. 14 year olds don't have such adept polemical skills, unless they are possess a high degree of precocity.
Anyway, if Elaine is a typical example of what home schooling can produce, I say let’s home school everybody.
I agree with you on your conclusion of what the issue at hand is, but I would like to clarify it as follows: The issue in discussion is whether the influence of peer groups, public school teachers, public school textbooks, and the public school environment for kids who go to public school is greater than that of their parents.
Definitely not. But that doesn't justify murder, for a quick example. We are simply under a "higher law."
What exactly is wrong with anecdotal evidence? Not broad enough? Or do you think I made those things up?
:nono: Anecdotal evidence!!
I think it was both the teachers and the students. I'd have to get it from him again to be sure, though. Another interesting bit of information is that a teacher got his brother onto dope...
I can't discuss that since I don't know the extent of your family's resources. :idea: Hey! Aren't you using "anecdotal evidence" again? :think:
And how can their parents really teach them well, when they can't spend a lot of time with them?
What do you call teaching evolution? I know a boy who was in the second grade when a teacher tried to force him to write an answer on a test which conflicted with his beliefs.
Would you try to explain what sort of meditation you are referring to?
Then we agree on that much! :chuckle:
I know, there are still some which can make it through the public school system, but not many do, and I certainly wouldn't want to risk it with my children.
Sometimes they do.
Do you believe in creation or not, Zimfan? Most schools include teaching evolution as a fact in their science curricula.
Do I detect sarcasm? :angel:
It is the parent's decision, but I believe the right choice is homeschooling.
Probably true. They send their kids off to daycare, school, and college, and then they wonder why their kids don't have good morals. :sigh: