Could God forgive without crucifixion?

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yes, the only verse in the Bible that speaks about confessing sins! Also, John says a few pages later who is born of God does not sins... so the literal, traditional exegesis has a little contradiction here.

How can I confess sins if I died to them? And God remembers them no more? Plus, I'm not even under the law! (Romans 6, Hebrews 8)? I can't see how this only verse would make me kneel every night and make a list of my transgressions, if a hundred other verses tell me I don't have to anymore.

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
(1 John 5:16-17)​

Which sins lead to death?
 

Predi

New member
There is a Spiritual transformation that is a process, it is not an instaneous thing.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end eternal life." Romans 6:22

I'm sorry but I can't see "have been set free from sin" as a process. Perhaps because English is not my primary language?
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Yes, the only verse in the Bible that speaks about confessing sins! Also, John says a few pages later who is born of God does not sins... so the literal, traditional exegesis has a little contradiction here.

How can I confess sins if I died to them? And God remembers them no more? Plus, I'm not even under the law! (Romans 6, Hebrews 8)? I can't see how this only verse would make me kneel every night and make a list of my transgressions, if a hundred other verses tell me I don't have to anymore.

The point is to continue to press on, to turn to God more and more...seeking forgiveness along the way... Repentance.

"Not that I have obtained all this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me His own." Philippians 3:12
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
I'm sorry but I can't see "have been set free from sin" as a process. Perhaps because English is not my primary language?

How bout this one... Maybe a little clearer picture.
"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18
 

Predi

New member
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
(1 John 5:16-17)​

Which sins lead to death?

To be honest I have no idea. I can't see enough information in the text to state anything without doubts.
 

Predi

New member
The point is to continue to press on, to turn to God more and more...seeking forgiveness along the way... Repentance.

I'm the kind of guy who always asks, "What if?"

What if a Christian doesn't press on? What if they're... discouraged, lazy, their faith weakens?

Does it mean they're not saved? Or they never were?
 

Cross Reference

New member
Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Gigliotti View Post
There is a Spiritual transformation that is a process, it is not an instaneous thing.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end eternal life." Romans 6:22

Set free from sin?? How 'bout is was only the power sin from which we have been set free?

If you don't agree then please explain what overcoming sin for the Christian is all about?
 
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Lon

Well-known member
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Hebrews 9:22 Those who rep you don't believe the Bible, so unless you want to chuck out your Bible and chuck God as scripture portrays Him, then don't pay much attention. We have a few creeps on TOL.

Back to an answer. God certainly 'can' do anything. What we know is that He chose 'this' way of doing it. I can give you a few reasons why. 1) Life is in the blood Leviticus 17:11 Jesus laid down His life, to save ours. John 15:13 by metaphor, God reached into our dilemma and used powerful statements to show us love and our need for a Savior. 2) Death on a Cross shows us the dire situation of sin. In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told they would surely die. They didn't believe it and neither do/might we. Something dramatic shows not only God's incredible love and a showing of an extent of that love (John 3:16), but that sin places us in a desperate place Ephesians 2:12
3) Substitution. It comes from the greatest love being one laying down His life and it also shows the seriousness of our sin condition, and finally (for my short answer), it destroys the sin barrier between God and man and takes care of the debt. If you wrong me, you owe me a debt. Jesus forgave debt as a foreshadow of what He was going to do on the cross. O.T. saints were forgiven as a foreshadow of the same. The 'act' of forgiveness, which happened to be Christ's life and death, was the impetus of forgiveness. It took care of our debt, our separation from God, our ensuing acts of sin, etc. "What did Christ's death, burial, and resurrection accomplish" is a topic I've seen on the internet and with books directed to answering that. It is a good question. In an overview, His death shows us that we are drastically separated from God and need a Savior. There is no other name, under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Tell those giving you reps for 'questioning' that they are NOT okay with God, that their sins aren't just a sweeping under the rug. They aren't just 'okay' with Him. They have no place to go if they reject the only begotten Son of God. Acts 4:12 John 6:67-68

You have a lot of heretics/cultists giving you feedback in thread. Realize you are getting a lot of information from an incredibly small minority. That kind of maverick lone-ranger opinion is always going to be off-the-wall idiosyncratic. Not always bad, but some of them drink their own koolaid and think that poison is the only drink out there, even among milk and other legitimate beverages :dizzy:

These New-age Christ-rejectors left Jesus just like then. John 6:53-58
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
I'm the kind of guy who always asks, "What if?"

What if a Christian doesn't press on? What if they're... discouraged, lazy, their faith weakens?

Does it mean they're not saved? Or they never were?



He will not give us burden we cannot carry.

If or when we are weary Jesus will tell us to rest.

Jesus says His yoke is easy and burden is light.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
I'm the kind of guy who always asks, "What if?"

What if a Christian doesn't press on? What if they're... discouraged, lazy, their faith weakens?

Does it mean they're not saved? Or they never were?

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh, will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to The Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life." Galatians 6:7-8
Some choose to turn away from God.

"Beloved I urge you as soujouners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul." 1 Peter 2:11
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told they would surely die. They didn't believe it and neither do/might we.

Watch you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Adam not being deceived means he either believed God or was ignorant as to what it meant to die.

Let go of that bible college trash, it's littering up the Holy Ground of yer mind.

Be like Paul, take a trip to the burning bush.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
Watch you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Adam not being deceived means he either believed it or was ignorant to what to die meant.

Let go of that bible college trash, littering up the Holy Ground.
Er, let's let go of the 'vitriol' trash littering up Holy Ground :noway:

I'll respond to you just fine without inane banter. Otherwise? :nono: Try again?
 

Predi

New member
Hebrews 9:22 Those who rep you don't believe the Bible, so unless you want to chuck out your Bible and chuck God as scripture portrays Him, then don't pay much attention. We have a few creeps on TOL.

I believe many of these "creeps" do believe the Bible, but it seems that interpretation is like a life style, everyone has their own one :)

Back to an answer. God certainly 'can' do anything. What we know is that He chose 'this' way of doing it.

I know He can... but what if the doctrine defies logic in my opinion?

Until now I always thought, "If a doctrine defies logic, try to understand it, there must be something wrong with my logic."

But why assume my logic is always wrong and end every conversation with, "It's beyond understanding?". No, I'm not implying you're doing it, it was just a side note :)

He definitely chose His way, the question is if what we think He chose is what He really chose :)

In an overview, His death shows us that we are drastically separated from God and need a Savior.

We still are? I thought we were, what about 2 Corinthians 5:19?

You have a lot of heretics/cultists giving you feedback in thread. Realize you are getting a lot of information from an incredibly small minority.


I don't get impressed with numbers :) Sometimes 1 in a million is right :)


Thank you for your input, I'll have to think about it deeper!
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
To be honest I have no idea. I can't see enough information in the text to state anything without doubts.

James says that God has given us a perfect law. (James 1:25) A perfect law need not be modified by additions or deletions. It is perfect.

James referred to this perfect law as the Law of Liberty. James then gives two of the instructions of this perfect law. (James 2:11-12)

This law was God's covenant and was placed in the ark of the covenant. In addition to the covenant, Israel was given statutes and judgments that were recorded in the Book of the Law and placed beside the ark of the covenant but not in it. (Deuteronomy 31:26)

The Book of the Law was temporary. (Galatians 3:19)

Sin unto death is the violation of God's covenant.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I believe many of these "creeps" do believe the Bible, but it seems that interpretation is like a life style, everyone has their own one :)
Again, you have what the majority of people read, then walk away with as theology, and then you have about 1%. In math class, I mostly got the same answers with 99% of the class. When I didn't? Rarely but wrong.

I know He can... but what if the doctrine defies logic in my opinion?
Well for one, I think I've given 3 points among a few others, that 1) demand it is logical and 2) has it making very good sense. Are either of us stupid? No, but perhaps one isn't as careful as the next.

Until now I always thought, "If a doctrine defies logic, try to understand it, there must be something wrong with my logic."
Something may be wrong with our thinking, but we can 'logically' arrive at wrong answers. I didn't always get math answers right. I am logical.

But why assume my logic is always wrong and end every conversation with, "It's beyond understanding?". No, I'm not implying you're doing it, it was just a side note :)
Percentages. If 99 out of 100 have the same answer, I can rest a little easier. If I am the one with a different answer? Some on here are so stinking confident with that, it is beyond reasonable or intelligent to me. When we put all the classes together (like on TOL) it is even worse. Those one-in-every-99 all have a different answer, come here and spout it off and worse, the have different answers even from one another! Exponentially, it then becomes 10 in 990 and nearly all of them with different answers. It is almost comical, if it weren't sad, that they then argue with each other on TOL after the other 990 of us give up a hopeless cause.

He definitely chose His way, the question is if what we think He chose is what He really chose :)
Again 990 against one or two. When we keep going, it is 99900 to 100, and maybe 5 of the 100 have the same answer. Percentages don't 'prove' a point, but they do indeed show exponential probability. Take the number and it is 99% sure that one guy by himself is wrong. God doesn't depend on percentages, and even says the way is narrow BUT it seems unreasonable to me, among those professing to be Christian 99900 of them don't make it? TOO narrow in my opinion. As far as my expectation, there haven't been many Christians, although the full number is encouraging lately. So, just by the numbers alone, I believe contention is unreasonable. Not only that, I'm one of the guys that came up with the same answer as the 99900. I didn't copy and did my own work. Sure, there are kids in every class that copy. Usually even those kids are smart at it. They aren't copying but the smarter kids. At least they are smart enough at that point. Food for though and I think with at least a little weight and worth a few moments of consideration. "IF" you followed me this far, you are well beyond most. I can't get a cultist to understand the unlikelihood to save my or their life :(

We still are? I thought we were, what about 2 Corinthians 5:19?
You are questioning the very act, so 'we' is inclusive as to the need of the death of Jesus Christ. See John 16:7

At this point, I'd warn about giving the one in 99 answer. For what it is worth, it definitely doesn't look right and I tend to do well on these. For what it is worth.


I don't get impressed with numbers :) Sometimes 1 in a million is right :)
Ah. Interesting. Every last one :think:


Thank you for your input, I'll have to think about it deeper!
Better. Dismissing the numbers has me a bit discouraged.
 
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