Clete's POTD 11-17-04

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Clete

Truth Smacker
Originally Posted by Hilston...
Prodigal writes:
If I want to validate the correctness of my brain, or the validity of my senses, I can just go to a doctor.

And how will you then process the information he gives you? By the senses and reasoning faculties that you cannot validate? The doctor may be giving you an accurate assessment of your senses and reason, but without validating them, you don't know if what you're hearing from him is being accurately perceived by your ears and correcty processed by your brain.
Prodigal writes:
I'm not entirely sure if there's any way for anyone to validate their senses.

So then you need to shuttup about denying "claims that have no proof to verify their validity." Until you can validate that very statement, which you admittedly cannot, you have no grounds to deny anyone's belief about anything.
Prodigal writes:
I can go to college and learn that the sky is in fact blue and I can be shown color samples of blue and red and see the difference between the two.

Not if your senses are invalid, Prodigal!!!
Prodigal writes:
I don't really know what you want from me.

An admission that you have an irrational blind faith assumption, the very thing you criticize of others.
Prodigal writes:
What criteria is there for validating my senses? If there's none than everyone is in doubt and uncertainty and in which case no one should believe anything.

Yes, you get it now. Excellent.
Prodigal writes:
Hilston, if I'm reading you correctly, there's no way anything can be proven so long as there's the possibility that our eyes are actually seeing something that isn't there.

Bingo!
Prodigal writes:
What's the criteria for knowing that what you see is indeed not what you're seeing?

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Prodigal writes:
You can use big words, philosophical arguments and you can talk down to me, but you have no solutions to any of the problems you point out so far, so my only assumption can be that you're just trying to confuse me.

I apologize for talking down to you, Prodigal. I was about ready to give up on you because you weren't getting this. But with your most recent post it seems you now get it. No, I'm not trying to confuse you. I'm actually trying to bring clarity to this question, to get you and others to face the problem we all have with our most basic assumptions about life, existence, experience, etc.
Prodigal writes:
Hilston, you're a lot smarter than I, but you haven't convinced me of anything.

I would hope that I've convinced you that you can't go around demanding proof and validation when you yourself cannot prove or validate the means by which you presume to assess someone else's proof or validation.
Prodigal writes:
I don't have to validate my senses, like I said, I'm a healthy person, but saying the sky is red when in fact it is for everyone to see, blue doesn't make sense to me.

What if you see blue as red, Prodigal? How would you ever know? Color blind people sometimes go a very long time thinking dark grey is "red" and light grey is "green." Sometimes they're lucky enough to find out that the concensus differs from their perception, but that in itself doesn't make the consensus correct. Maybe the so-called "color blind" people are correct, and the rest of us are seeing something that isn't really there?
Prodigal writes:
In a world where blue can be red and six can be nine, wouldn't you agree that it's not safe to believe anything?

Based only on what you've offered thus far, I would agree. Your world is a dangerous, uncertain, and dubious place.
Prodigal writes:
Oh, and how do I go about validating my senses?

See below.
Prodigal writes:
You seem to know all about it, can you refer me to a local sense validator, or whatever they call them? If it's so darn important to you, I'd like to get it done, if it is at all possible, and if it's not than your questions to me are pointless, hostile and worth nothing more than my middle finger. If there is a way for me to validate my senses than I can move up the ladder and be closer to you and I won't frustrate you so much?

We all presume to be rational people. But if we want to be authentically rational, we need to find a way to validate our presumed rationality, as well as our sense functions. Your way obviously doesn't work. This was the sin of the Garden. Adam tried to validate his own reasoning by declaring, by his actions, that he would go it alone. He would make judgments and assessments based on his own autonomy, his own senses, his own reasoning. Determining good and evil is the essence of deity. By presuming to discern good and evil apart from God, Adam unlawfully usurped God's authority and sought to become his own lawmaker, knowing good and evil. Eating the fruit was almost incidental. That action manifested what was already in Adam's heart. And with that act, all of Adam's certainty went out the window, and he found himself in the same shoes that you are in right now. And if you do not repent of being your own lawmaker and throw yourself upon the mercy of The Court, you will burn in hell with Adam.

Only trust in Christ as revealed in the Scripture can validate your reasoning and sense faculties. With trust in Christ comes the gift of certainty, by which you can be certain about the verity of the Scriptures. By acknowledging Christ as the Source of all truth, and the Scriptures as His inerrant and infallible Word, you won't have to toss an apple in the air a million times to know that induction works. You will see it attested in the Scriptures, and since you will have certainty regarding the Scriptures, you can then be equally certain about what they infer, including the verity of the senses and the validity of logic and reason.


The context is made clear by the post itself but the link will take you to the thread if you're interested.

It is a bit like being in the twilight zone for me to be giving a POTD to Jim Hilston but now that I understand where he's going with his debating style it's just seems incredibly brilliant.

Very good Jim! Keep it up! :thumb:

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

I'm not sure if I'd agree that Adam's burning in hell. How do we know God didn't forgive him?

Quite right!

I intend to question Jim about that. In fact, Jim, if you see this, how about a breif explanation. Do you have any Biblical evidence to support the idea that Adam never repented and followed God before his natural death?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Hilston

Active member
Ge 6:1 And it came to pass, when men [in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam] began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them [i.e. Adam and Eve],
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men [singular in Hebrew, ha-'adham, "the man Adam"] that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam], for that he [this is emphatic in the Hebrew; HE, i.e, precisely Adam] also [i.e., as well as other men] is flesh ["flesh" taken as a verb in Hebrew="in their erring"]: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years [Adam would live another 120 years, i.e. Adam is 810 years old when these words were spoken].

(These notes and more detail are provided in the margin of the Companion Bible.)

My view is that Abel was the first elect man.

Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

I believe it is fitting to view Adam as a steadfast, persistent rebel and enemy of God, especially given the above, combined with the fact that he is described as the antithesis of Christ.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Originally posted by Hilston

Ge 6:1 And it came to pass, when men <in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam> began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them <i.e. Adam and Eve>,
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men <singular in Hebrew, ha-'adham, "the man Adam"> that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man <in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam>, for that he <this is emphatic in the Hebrew; HE, i.e, precisely Adam> also <i.e., as well as other men> is flesh <"flesh" taken as a verb in Hebrew="in their erring">: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years <Adam would live another 120 years, i.e. Adam is 810 years old when these words were spoken>.

(These notes and more detail are provided in the margin of the Companion Bible.)

My view is that Abel was the first elect man.

Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

I believe it is fitting to view Adam as a steadfast, persistent rebel and enemy of God, especially given the above, combined with the fact that he is described as the antithesis of Christ.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

:think: I have a feeling a new thread will be forthcoming. :think:
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by Hilston

Ge 6:1 And it came to pass, when men <in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam> began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them <i.e. Adam and Eve>,
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men <singular in Hebrew, ha-'adham, "the man Adam"> that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man <in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam>, for that he <this is emphatic in the Hebrew; HE, i.e, precisely Adam> also <i.e., as well as other men> is flesh <"flesh" taken as a verb in Hebrew="in their erring">: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years <Adam would live another 120 years, i.e. Adam is 810 years old when these words were spoken>.

(These notes and more detail are provided in the margin of the Companion Bible.)

I don't agree with those notes. I think the 120 years refers to the time of the upcoming flood. Adam had been dead for at least 500 years by the time these words were spoken.

My view is that Abel was the first elect man.

Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Jesus is speaking here of people that had been murdered. Adam wasn't slain -- he just died. I don't think this verse supports your view very well. Do you have any others?

I believe it is fitting to view Adam as a steadfast, persistent rebel and enemy of God, especially given the above, combined with the fact that he is described as the antithesis of Christ.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We're all living souls. Is everybody the antithesis of Christ?
 

Hilston

Active member
For some reason the formatting and insertions I originally included in the Gen 6 excerpt above got lost in my first post. I edited it, and I will paste below the excerpt again:

Ge 6:1 And it came to pass, when men [in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam] began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them [i.e. Adam and Eve],
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men [singular in Hebrew, ha-'adham, "the man Adam"] that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam], for that he [this is emphatic in the Hebrew; HE, i.e, precisely Adam] also [i.e., as well as other men] is flesh ["flesh" taken as a verb in Hebrew="in their erring"]: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years [Adam would live another 120 years, i.e. Adam is 810 years old when these words were spoken].
 

Hilston

Active member
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I don't agree with those notes. I think the 120 years refers to the time of the upcoming flood.
Then Adam no doubt drowned in the flood. That's a fitting end for the man responsible for bringing the sin nature and the ensuing sentence of death upon all mankind.

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Adam had been dead for at least 500 years by the time these words were spoken.
Really? Where's your proof?

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Jesus is speaking here of people that had been murdered. Adam wasn't slain -- he just died.
It's funny that you minimize the death of Adam. God sure didn't.

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I don't think this verse supports your view very well. Do you have any others?
I don't care what you think. I was asked a question. I answered it. You can go on believing anything you want. Take Journey's advice: "DOE-OWNn't Stop. Bee-LEEE-eeeving."

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
We're all living souls. Is everybody the antithesis of Christ?
We are not all "made a living soul" as Adam was. The implication and ellipsis of this verse is that the one who was made a living soul rebelled against the one who made him a living soul and brought the sin nature and death upon his race as a result.
 

Yorzhik

New member
I'm pitching in with OEJ on this one. I think the case is fairly strong that Adam did not die in the flood.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
 

Turbo

Friendly Neighborhood Admin
Originally posted by Hilston

Then Adam no doubt drowned in the flood. That's a fitting end for the man responsible for bringing the sin nature and the ensuing sentence of death upon all mankind.


Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Adam had been dead for at least 500 years by the time these words were spoken.

Really? Where's your proof?

From Genesis 5:
<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD></TD><TD>Date of birth <br>(After Creation)</TD><TD>Age when son is born</TD><TD>Date when son is born</TD><TD>Age at death*</TD><TD>Date of death*</TD></TR><TR><TD>Adam</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>130</TD><TD>130</TD><TD>930</TD><TD><b>930</b></TD></TR><TR><TD>Seth</TD><TD>130</TD><TD>105</TD><TD>235</TD><TD>912</TD><TD>1042</TD></TR>
<TR><TD>Enosh</TD><TD>235</TD><TD>90</TD><TD>325</TD><TD>905</TD><TD>1140</TD></TR><TR><TD>Kenan</TD><TD>325</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>395</TD><TD>910</TD><TD>1235</TD></TR><TR><TD>Mahalalel</TD><TD>395</TD><TD>65</TD><TD>460</TD><TD>895</TD><TD>1290</TD></TR><TR><TD>Jared</TD><TD>460</TD><TD>162</TD><TD>622</TD><TD>962</TD><TD>1422</TD></TR><TR><TD>Enoch</TD><TD>622</TD><TD>65</TD><TD>687</TD><TD>365</TD><TD>987</TD></TR><TR><TD>Methuselah</TD><TD>687</TD><TD>187</TD><TD>874</TD><TD>969</TD><TD>1656</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lamech</TD><TD> 874</TD><TD>182</TD><TD>1056</TD><TD>777</TD><TD>1651</TD></TR><TR><TD>Noah</TD><TD><b>1056</b></TD><TD>500</TD><TD>1556</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>

  • Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth. Genesis 7:6
Since Noah was born about 1056 years after Adam was created, the flood occured around 1656. But according to Genesis 5:5, Adam only lived to be 930 years old:
  • So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

(Notice the date of Methuselah's death on the table. Either he died in the flood, or shortly before.)

It's funny that you minimize the death of Adam. God sure didn't.
He's just pointing out that Jesus is talking about all the righteous men who were murdered, from the first case to the last recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures.
  • Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
On a side note Hilston, do you know whether the Hebrew letters that are transliterated A and Z are the first and llast letters of their alphabet? It's pretty neat that it works out that way in English, so that when Jesus says "from Abel to Zecharias" it's like our expression "from A to Z." I'm wondering if that's the case in Hebrew as well.




*except for Enoch. (see Gen 5:24)
 
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Hilston

Active member
Turbo,

Sounds good to me. I was wrong and stand corrected. Thanks for posting the info.

I didn't know we could post tables. That's quite sweet.
 
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Turbo

Friendly Neighborhood Admin
Originally posted by Hilston

I didn't know we could post tables. That's quite sweet.
Only in forums/threads that say HTML code is ON in the bottom left corner. It's turned off in most forums. I'm lucky this conversation happened to be going on in the SPOTD forum.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Turbo,

WOW! That was an excellent post! Why is the html code option off everywhere but here? Knight should change that for sure!



Jim,
Originally posted by Hilston
Sounds good to me. I was wrong and stand corrected. Thanks for posting the info.

Are you saying that you were wrong just about Adam having died in the flood, or about the whole issue? :confused:
 

Hilston

Active member
Clete writes:
Are you saying that you were wrong just about Adam having died in the flood, or about the whole issue?
The former. It has no bearing on my thesis at all. He could've been eaten by a t-rex or trampled by a herd of brachiosaurs; it wouldn't matter. I still stand by the evidence of the following paragraph, which OEJ's and Yorzhik's and Turbo's evidence does not contradict.

Ge 6:1 And it came to pass, when men [in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam] began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them [i.e. Adam and Eve],
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men [singular in Hebrew, ha-'adham, "the man Adam"] that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [in Hebrew, this is singular, with the definite article, "the man", i.e. Adam], for that he [this is emphatic in the Hebrew; HE, i.e, precisely Adam] also [i.e., as well as other men] is flesh ["flesh" taken as a verb in Hebrew="in their erring"]: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years [Adam would live another 120 years, i.e. Adam is 810 years old when these words were spoken].
 
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