Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

[DFT_Dave]

You've ignored Clete's question in your supposed response to Clete.

Clete's question was rhetorical, of coarse Adam sinned, that's indisputable.

It's blaspheme to claim to speak for Paul when you quote scripture.

I quoted Paul and agreed with him. Blaspheme is the act of insulting or showing contempt.

It's not about the quantity of sin, Dave. Why are you so dense?

It's about not having to have to sin, our new nature is not like our old nature.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

It's about not having to have to sin, our new nature is not like our old nature.

Do you think that the old nature disappears completely the moment that we believe?

Do you think that the law helps us not to sin?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Do you think that the old nature disappears completely the moment that we believe?

Do you think that the law helps us not to sin?

Old nature vs New nature
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 5: 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself...16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Jesus, Peter, Paul, and all the apostles taught that Temple sacrifices, that were meant to atone for sins, were no longer necessary. They all taught everyone must repent of sin, be baptized in water, and follow the teaching of Christ. They all taught the same thing.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized [in water] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized [in water]: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16 [Ananias tells Paul] And now why tarry thou? arise, and be baptized [in water], and wash away thy sins,

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

Old nature vs New nature
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

So you think that "we should not serve sin" means "we never sin"?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So you think that this means that Christians are all perfect sinless the moment that they believe?

Galatians 5: 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself...16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Are you sinless Dave?

Paul makes it clear in 1 Cor that some saved people are sinning.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus, Peter, Paul, and all the apostles taught that Temple sacrifices, that were meant to atone for sins, were no longer necessary. They all taught everyone must repent of sin, be baptized in water, and follow the teaching of Christ. They all taught the same thing.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Paul never tells anyone to "repent and be baptized".

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized [in water] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized [in water]: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Note that they (the twelve) were not preaching the cross as GOOD NEWS.

Peter preached the cross as A MURDER WEAPON and his fellow Jews as the perpetrators.

Acts 2:22-24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (2:24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.​

No "preaching the cross" per Paul there.

 

[Right Divider]

@DFT_Dave Please show us all where Jesus and Peter preached the following:

Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

​

P.S. Make sure it's before Paul told Peter about it.

 

[DFT_Dave]

So you think that "we should not serve sin" means "we never sin"?

So you think that this means that Christians are all perfect sinless the moment that they believe?

Are you sinless Dave?

Paul makes it clear in 1 Cor that some saved people are sinning.

I don't want this thread to be about the old nature vs new, etc. This thread is about Mid Acts, although I did not intend it originally.

The Mid Acts belief is that Jesus, Peter, and the disciples preached faith plus works and they preached only to the Jews; and that only Paul preached faith alone without works and he preached only to the Gentiles.

The other view is that they all preached the same thing to both Jews and Gentiles.

Paul never tells anyone to "repent and be baptized".

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16 [Ananias tells Paul] And now why tarry thou? arise, and be baptized [in water], and wash away thy sins,

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

In Acts 20:20 Paul is speaking about himself that he preached repentance. In Acts 22 it says he was baptized and in 1 Corinthians that he baptized others but not many, meaning he believed in both repentance and baptism in water.

The same gospel was preached to both Jews and Greeks / Gentiles.

Sorry, Mid Acts is not winning this debate.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

The Mid Acts belief is that Jesus, Peter, and the disciples preached faith plus works and they preached only to the Jews; and that only Paul preached faith alone without works and he preached only to the Gentiles.

You're... AGAIN... beating up a straw-man.

The twelve (which includes Peter) agreed to limit their ministry (i.e., preaching) to the CIRCUMCISION only.

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. ​

Paul did NOT preach to "only Gentiles". Paul preached to the HEATHEN (i.e., the UNSAVED, be they Jew or Gentile).

Acts 11:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:19) ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. ​

The other view is that they all preached the same thing to both Jews and Gentiles.

You mean the false view.

Perhaps it has escaped your notice that the twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom for YEARS and YET did not even know that Christ would die. Luke 18:31-34

That proves beyond any doubt that the gospel of the kingdom and gospel of the grace of God are NOT identical.

Checkmate -- game over -- thanks for playing.

 

[Right Divider]

Category	Jesus and the Twelve (Earthly)	Paul (Post-Ascension)
Primary Audience	The nation of Israel (Matthew 10:5-6)	All nations and Gentiles (Romans 11:13)
Core Message	The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand	The Gospel of the Grace of God
Legal Status	Under the Law of Moses (Matthew 23:2-3)	Under Grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)
Source of Truth	Jesus' spoken words on earth	Revelations from the glorified Christ
The Cross	A mystery and a cause for grief	The center of salvation and glory
Baptism	Water baptism for remission of sins	Baptism by the Spirit into one body
Requirement	Repentance and works of the Law	Faith in Christ’s finished work

 

[Clete]

To commit a sin is not the same as to live in sin which means to keep on sinning. We can all sin but that does not mean we sin all day long.

Romans 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Newness of life does not mean we will never sin again, newness of life means we do not have to live in sin--sin every day.

It's simply stunning to me how people can read a passage that says one thing (Romans 6) and think it means it's opposite!

--Paul and Dave

You are in unresponsive mode, Dave. Conversations are supposed to be two way responsive interactions, not repeated opportunity to simply put forward your doctrine and ignore everything anyone says to you in response.

PLEASE answer the question...

Did Adam sin?

It isn't a trick question. It's flatly obvious to the point of my not really needing even ask it. Just tell me the answer you already know is correct.

 

[Clete]

Clete's question was rhetorical, of coarse Adam sinned, that's indisputable.

It flat out was NOT rhetorical!

You made a point about how we still sin in a discussion about whether we should follow the Ten Commandments. The fact that Adam sinned centuries before anyone ever heard of the Ten Commandments, is proof that the two points are not mutually exclusive. That is to say that holding the position that we ought not pay any attention at all to the Ten Commandments, is not the same thing as saying that it's okay for us to be immoral. You do not need the Ten Commandments to be either righteous or wicked.

It's about not having to have to sin, our new nature is not like our old nature.

--Dave

Paul explicitly contradict you...

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

​

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

 

[Nick M]

Is there any commandment that Christians should not practice today?

All of them.

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Category	Jesus and the Twelve (Earthly)	Paul (Post-Ascension)
Primary Audience	The nation of Israel (Matthew 10:5-6)	All nations and Gentiles (Romans 11:13)
Core Message	The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand	The Gospel of the Grace of God
Legal Status	Under the Law of Moses (Matthew 23:2-3)	Under Grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)
Source of Truth	Jesus' spoken words on earth	Revelations from the glorified Christ
The Cross	A mystery and a cause for grief	The center of salvation and glory
Baptism	Water baptism for remission of sins	Baptism by the Spirit into one body
Requirement	Repentance and works of the Law	Faith in Christ’s finished work

I made a few adjustments in order to compare the other view

Category	Jesus and the Twelve Pre-Ascension 1.	The Twelve and Paul Post-Ascension 2.
Primary Audience	The nation of Israel (Matthew 10:5-6)	All nations, Jews and Gentiles (Romans 11:13) 3.
Core Message	Jesus the Messiah has come 4.	Jesus the Messiah has risen 5.
Legal Status	Under the Law of Moses (Matthew 23:2-3)	Under Grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)
Source of Truth	Jesus' words to Apostles	Jesus' words to Apostles also spoken to Paul 6.
The Cross	A mystery and a cause for grief	The center of salvation the final sacrifice for sin. 7.
Baptism	Water baptism for remission of sins	Water baptism into Christs death and resurrection to newness of life 8.
Requirement	Repentance and obedience to Jesus teaching 9.	Repentance and obedience to Jesus teaching 10.

1. Pre-Ascension is the same thing as earthly, just sounds better when comparing it with Post-Ascension
2. Just Paul in the Post-Ascension contradicts that you also include the Apostles and not just Paul, so I added them.
3. I think you also include Jews as all nations but I just didn't take that for granted.
4. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand means the Messiah has come, "Behold the Lamb of God."
5. Jesus, the Messiah, has risen from the dead is more "core" to, and answers, the kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and the grace of God is the answer under legal status.
6. Peter, the other Apostles, and Paul received the same message, the former by Jesus in the flesh, the later by Jesus spirit.
7. I thought Jesus as the final sacrifice for sin was more specific than glory.
8. Water baptism into Christs death and resurrection to newness of life is exactly what Paul says in Roman 6. Water baptism for remission of sins is because Christ had not yet died and risen.
9. Jesus never preached anyone was saved through the works of the law, he said to do them because there was nothing wrong about doing them. Temple sacrifices saved them when they sinned, not just obeying the law. If Jesus taught the works of the Law he would not have be killed.
10. Jesus teaching was that believing in him was the way to eternal life, not by the law of Moses, which is why he was killed.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

It isn't a trick question. It's flatly obvious to the point of my not really needing even ask it. Just tell me the answer you already know is correct.

It flat out was NOT rhetorical!

A Rhetorical Question: A question asked for effect, not an answer, that is so obvious that it need not be answered.

Saying, "It's flatly obvious to the point of my not really needing even ask it. Just tell me the answer you already know is correct" is a rhetorical question. Don't worry, it's a minor mistake.

Problem Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Answer Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

All of them.

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We are no longer under a tutor does not mean we can freely sin all we want, it means we don't have to keep on sinning.

But for those of you who think you can sin with impunity, you better also believe you can never lose your salvation.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

I made a few adjustments in order to compare the other view

If you want to make your own table... make your own table.

1. Pre-Ascension is the same thing as earthly, just sounds better when comparing it with Post-Ascension

Just so long as you understand that no ministries began or ended at the ascension.

2. Just Paul in the Post-Ascension contradicts that you also include the Apostles and not just Paul, so I added them.

The Bible calls Paul the apostle of the gentiles (Rom 11:13), but the Bible also says this:

Acts 9:15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:15) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

So try not to confuse yourself.

3. I think you also include Jews as all nations but I just didn't take that for granted.

Paul's primary audience is gentiles per Rom 11:13

Again, try not to confuse yourself.

4. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand means the Messiah has come, "Behold the Lamb of God."

No, the kingdom at hand meant that it was near. But that kingdom did not come because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah.

AT HAND means NEAR.

It is a SINGLE Greek word:

G1448 ἐγγίζω eggizo (en-ğiy'-zō) v.​

1. to make near.​

2. (reflexively) to approach.​

[from G1451]​

KJV: approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh​

Root(s): G1451​

5. Jesus, the Messiah, has risen from the dead is more "core" to, and answers, the kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and the grace of God is the answer under legal status.

Total insanity on your part.

6. Peter, the other Apostles, and Paul received the same message, the former by Jesus in the flesh, the later by Jesus spirit.

That is just plain FALSE! Paul received NEW and previously UNKNOWN information.

You are either dumb or lying.

7. I thought Jesus as the final sacrifice for sin was more specific than glory.

I don't even understand what you're talking about. You communicate very poorly.

8. Water baptism into Christs death and resurrection to newness of life is exactly what Paul says in Roman 6. Water baptism for remission of sins is because Christ had not yet died and risen.

There is no such thing as "water baptism into Christ's death".
We are baptized into Christ and His death by the SPIRIT and not water.

9. Jesus never preached anyone was saved through the works of the law, he said to do them because there was nothing wrong about doing them. Temple sacrifices saved them when they sinned, not just obeying the law. If Jesus taught the works of the Law he would not have be killed.

You need to get a Bible and study it.

Faith AND works.

Matt 19:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(19:16) ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (19:17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. ​

Listen to Jesus, Dave.

10. Jesus teaching was that believing in him was the way to eternal life, not by the law of Moses, which is why he was killed.

Go back to the drawing board Dave, you are so far off.

According to your theory, there is no need for Paul at all. Why did God call him if not needed?

 

[Right Divider]

We are no longer under a tutor does not mean we can freely sin all we want, it means we don't have to keep on sinning.

But for those of you who think you can sin with impunity, you better also believe you can never lose your salvation.

--Dave

People like you always like to point the finger at others.

You're a legalist Dave.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Matt 19:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)(19:16) ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (19:17) And he said unto him, Why call thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus was being consistent with Mosaic Law, but this verse tells us nothing about what Jesus was teaching, but these verses do:

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

According to your theory, there is no need for Paul at all.

There was no special need for Paul as concerns the Gospels message. Paul was not a prototype, he was an example just as other were who were sent to preach the Gospel to world. Paul was one of many, not the one and only. Paul understood Hellenistic culture, he knew the Greek language and Greek philosophy which is why he was sent to Athens and Rome. Other apostles went to Persia, India, Asia Minor, Turkey, Ethiopia, and Spain.

People like you always like to point the finger at others.

Those of who think they can sin with impunity, better also believe they can never lose their salvation
is a logical conclusion.

--Dave