chrysostom

[chrysostom]

says the blinded 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV

I believe that Jesus suffered and died so we might be saved
-why do I see that?
-why don't I see the part that says I don't have to do anything else?

 

[theophilus]

I would say that betraying God was a wicked thing to do.
Or was it?
I mean, the wicked do wicked things because they cannot oppose God's will that they do wicked things.
And the righteous do righteous things because they cannot oppose God's will that they do righteous things.
Soooooo, neither the wicked or the righteous ever oppose God, but are only doing exactly as God wants them to do.
Soooooo, if we judge the wicked to be doing something they are not supposed to be doing, then aren't we essentially just telling them that they shouldn't be doing what God wants them to do????

But only God knows who the wicked are.

Think about this as an illustration...

Most homes in the US have a bible in them. We know we are commanded to read our bibles so that we can be made wise unto salvation.

Because we love our wickedness, we don't read our bibles.

Because we want to be made wise unto salvation we do read our bibles.

God will not force us to read our bibles.

The wicked remain in their wickedness.

The "wise unto salvation" receive eternal life.

Judas was wicked in his heart and God used him for His own Sovereign purpose which was to betray Christ.

The part that amazes me the most is that Judas got +/- three years of "face" time with the Lord and let his greed take him anyway.

 

[theophilus]

What saved you? You can find the answers on how to serve by 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV in Romans through Philemon.

It isn't. You're still not convinced even though Paul writes that salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves....If you apply that which is written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrongly TO yourself as most religious do, you will remain confused.

Building on the foundation a wise masterbuilder Paul laid is for reward 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV.

I know what the bible says about serving. I just want to hear your version. How do you apply the scripture(s) to your self and your life and your walk?

How do you walk with and abide in Christ Jesus?

Can't you just answer the questions?

 

[theophilus]

What saved you? You can find the answers on how to serve by 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV in Romans through Philemon.

It isn't. You're still not convinced even though Paul writes that salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves....If you apply that which is written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrongly TO yourself as most religious do, you will remain confused.

Building on the foundation a wise masterbuilder Paul laid is for reward 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV.

One more thing, when Paul said "2 Timothy 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Who did Paul believe?

And why do you not believe who Paul believed?

 

[heir]

I believe that Jesus suffered and died so we might be saved
-why do I see that?

That's an other gospel Galatians 1:8-9 KJV

-why don't I see the part that says I don't have to do anything else?

Why don't you see the why of the cross (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)? Why don't you see that salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourself (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)? It's because you were shown it, believed not and are blinded (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV).

 

[heir]

One more thing, when Paul said "2 Timothy 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Who did Paul believe?

Paul trusted the Lord (Ephesians 1:12 KJV), the same as we trust the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13 KJV).

And why do you not believe who Paul believed?

I absolutely had a moment in my life when I trusted the Lord believing the why of the cross/the means by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and by which we are fellowheirs and of the same Body (beginning with Paul 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV) and partakers of Christ.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[heir]

I know what the bible says about serving.

Not if you're getting your walking papers from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, you don't.

I just want to hear your version. How do you apply the scripture(s) to your self and your life and your walk? How do you walk with and abide in Christ Jesus?

with the mind (Romans 7:25 KJV)/ endevouring to keep the seven fold unity of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:1-6 KJV). And, whether or not I "abide" does not affect my salvation (2 Timothy 2:13 KJV).

 

[theophilus]

Paul trusted the Lord (Ephesians 1:12 KJV), the same as we trust the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13 KJV).

I absolutely had a moment in my life when I trusted the Lord believing the why of the cross/the means by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and by which we are fellowheirs and of the same Body (beginning with Paul 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV) and partakers of Christ.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Then why do you ditch the gospels. Don't you think there are things in there for you?

Love your neighbor?
Blessings for meakness, peace, poor is spirit, etc..?
Do unto others?

None of that is for you? As a child and an heir?

Why not?

We are all one in Christ. He said so.

Why would you forsake those?

 

[theophilus]

Then why do you ditch the gospels. Don't you think there are things in there for you?

Love your neighbor?
Blessings for meakness, peace, poor is spirit, etc..?
Do unto others?

None of that is for you? As a child and an heir?

Why not?

We are all one in Christ. He said so.

Why would you forsake those?

Maybe you just don't want to obey anybody?

:idunno:

 

[theophilus]

[MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION],

“IN trying to understand the truth of God we are in great danger of being one-sided. One man catches at part of a truth, and says, “That is it, and that is the whole of it.” Another man lays hold of another side of truth, and he says, “This is the whole of it;” and straightaway there arises a contention between them. They are like the men who quarrelled as to the material of which a certain shield was made. One of them said that it was a golden shield; the other was equally sure that it was a silver one: whereas it so happened that it was gold on one side and silver on the other. So they fiercely wrangled when they might very well have been agreed if they had known a little more.

Most truths have two sides, and it is well to try to see both of them. Nearly every doctrine in the Word of God is balanced by some other doctrine, and many of the differences amongst the people of God have arisen from the undue stress which has been laid on one aspect of truth, while the other side has been altogether neglected. This danger very frequently besets us. For instance, some see the sovereignty of God, and are so carried away with that sublime truth, that they deny the responsibility of man; they thus both wrest the doctrine they do know, and fight against the doctrine they do not know. Others can see the universality of the gospel invitation, and with large hearts can urge all men to turn unto God and live; but they have never seen the speciality of this redemptive work of Christ, and so fail to understand the eternal purpose of God to save his chosen people. Running away with half a truth, they are like men that go through the wilderness wearing only one shoe, and they get lame of one foot, and that makes them limp all over. It does not matter which foot it is that is lame; the man is a cripple if either foot is thus afflicted.

It is essential for us to hold our minds ready to receive whatever the Holy Ghost teaches, and frequently to accept truths which we cannot harmonize. I have long ago given up all attempts to reconcile what God has revealed in one part of the Bible with what he has made known in another part. If I find in God’s Word doctrines which appear to me to be at variance with the teaching in other passages, I say to myself, “God knows where these things harmonize, and if he had wanted me to know it, he would have told me. As he has not told me, why should I worry myself about the matter? I am not going to speculate and theorize as to where these truths meet; nor will I cast a bridge of gossamer across the deep gulf which I fancy I see, and then trust myself to a thread that cannot bear my weight.” “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever.”

One said to me, the other day, concerning two great doctrines, “How do you make these two agree?” I answered by first asking another question, “How do I make two things agree that never fell out? There is no need for me to attempt anything of the kind. These two truths are perfectly reconcilable; and as they come from God’s mouth, it would be as difficult for you to show that they do not agree as it is for me to show that they do agree.” God does not say “Yea” and “Nay.” The Lord does not blow hot and cold. If he reveals two doctrines which apparently contradict each other, yet are they both true, since both are spoken by the God who cannot lie; and if I cannot see how they can be both true, it comforts me to think that I am not asked to see it; I am expected to believe it, and God’s grace gives me the faith to do even that. In fact, I rather like a difficulty, for then there is an opportunity for the exercise of faith. It is glorious, when one is sailing, to come right up under the lee of a great rock, and to be compelled to say, “Well, I cannot proceed any further this way.” What then? Why, just let your anchor down, and make a harbour of the rock, and lie there at rest while stormy winds do blow.

That is what you should do with difficult doctrines; make a quiet haven of the mysterious truth, and let it shelter you in time of doubt or despondency. When the storm is passed, you will find that there are other ways for you to go where it is perfectly plain sailing. Seeing that the revelation is divine, there must be mysteries which mortals cannot understand at present. Let us comfort ourselves with our Savior’s words, “What thou knowest not now, thou shalt know hereafter.” Some day the way will be made plain before us; and meanwhile, our attitude should be that of trustful children, who believe implicitly whatever their loving father tells them, whether they comprehend it or not.”

Spurgoen #2233

 

[heir]

Then why do you ditch the gospels. Don't you think there are things in there for you?

Love your neighbor?
Blessings for meakness, peace, poor is spirit, etc..?
Do unto others?

None of that is for you? As a child and an heir?

Why not?

We are all one in Christ. He said so.

Why would you forsake those?

You've been fed a line of bull if you think we "ditch" anything. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable...(2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). It means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. It's all written FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not ALL written TO us or about us.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV). We are to follow him in doctrine (1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV).

The form of sound words of Romans through Philemon (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV) is written directly TO the church, the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:23 KJV, Ephesians 5:30 KJV, Colossians 1:24-29 KJV).

You cannot be built up in the faith by applying someone else's mail TO yourself when it wasn't even written TO you and you were not even in the picture in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV)/when that which is written there is contrary to the dispensation of the grace of God such as~ the Lord and the 12 not sent to us, a different gospel preached there, conditional forgiveness, keeping the law, different requirements, different inheritance as a result of obedience to that which is found therein...

 

[Tambora]

But only God knows who the wicked are.

Think about this as an illustration...

Most homes in the US have a bible in them. We know we are commanded to read our bibles so that we can be made wise unto salvation.

Because we love our wickedness, we don't read our bibles.

Because we want to be made wise unto salvation we do read our bibles.

God will not force us to read our bibles.

The wicked remain in their wickedness.

The "wise unto salvation" receive eternal life.

Judas was wicked in his heart and God used him for His own Sovereign purpose which was to betray Christ.

The part that amazes me the most is that Judas got +/- three years of "face" time with the Lord and let his greed take him anyway.

In your own estimation, do you think Judas did exactly as God willed him to do?
To put another way ...... Are we to think it's wrong for someone to be doing what God's will wants them to be doing?

Let me see if I can ask another way to make the point.

I'm not talking about the fact that something good can happen after something bad happens, and therefore the end result makes up for the bad.
Good things can also happen after good things happen, so it's not necessary to have bad things happen to show that good things can happen.
So I'm not asking if God can make good things happen after bad things happen.

I am asking if the people (that are doing the bad things) are doing what God wants them to be doing?

I do not see how a Calvinist can answer it with a "no", because that would mean they were opposing God's will of what He wanted them to be doing.
God created some to be wicked and some to be righteous, so neither of them are opposing God's will of what he wants them to be.

Make better sense now?

 

[heir]

[MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION],



Spurgoen #2233

As if the Bible all says the same thing to the same people for all time. It doesn't. If it did there would be no reason for Paul to command Timothy to charge some that they teach no other doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3 KJV)! There would be no reason to 2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

 

[theophilus]

You've been fed a line of bull if you think we "ditch" anything. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable...(2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). It means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. It's all written FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not ALL written TO us or about us.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV). We are to follow him in doctrine (1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV).

The form of sound words of Romans through Philemon (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV) is written directly TO the church, the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:23 KJV, Ephesians 5:30 KJV, Colossians 1:24-29 KJV).

You cannot be built up in the faith by applying someone else's mail TO yourself when it wasn't even written TO you and you were not even in the picture in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV)/when that which is written there is contrary to the dispensation of the grace of God such as~ the Lord and the 12 not sent to us, a different gospel preached there, conditional forgiveness, keeping the law, different requirements, different inheritance as a result of obedience to that which is found therein...

Even Jesus claimed sheep "not of this fold."

How do you know that didn't include you?

 

[theophilus]

In your own estimation, do you think Judas did exactly as God willed him to do?
To put another way ...... Are we to think it's wrong for someone to be doing what God's will wants them to be doing?

Let me see if I can ask another way to make the point.

I'm not talking about the fact that something good can happen after something bad happens, and therefore the end result makes up for the bad.
Good things can also happen after good things happen, so it's not necessary to have bad things happen to show that good things can happen.
So I'm not asking if God can make good things happen after bad things happen.

I am asking if the people (that are doing the bad things) are doing what God wants them to be doing?

I do not see how a Calvinist can answer it with a "no", because that would mean they were opposing God's will of what He wanted them to be doing.
God created some to be wicked and some to be righteous, so neither of them are opposing God's will of what he wants them to be.

Make better sense now?

Judas, because of the evil in his heart that was his own choice, did exactly as God purposed him to do before the foundations of the earth had been laid.

God didn't damn Judas, he damned himself.

 

[heir]

Even Jesus claimed sheep "not of this fold."

How do you know that didn't include you?

Gentiles are not likened to sheep in M, M, L and John, but dogs (Matthew 15:26 KJV) and in our case in that time past: double dogs (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)!

 

[Tambora]

Judas, because of the evil in his heart that was his own choice, did exactly as God purposed him to do before the foundations of the earth had been laid.

God didn't damn Judas, he damned himself.

But how can it be said that Judas chose to damn himself unless there was an alternative he could have chose (which is naturally implied by the very word "chose")?
Isn't one of the premises of Calvinism that man cannot chose to be elect or reprobate, but that it was determined what they would be before they were ever even born?
If God determined that Judas would be the one to betray Him, then Judas did do what God wanted.
Judas was not in opposition of God.

 

[Crucible]

It could just as easily be you who has been hardened by God into believing that others are hardened so that you won't trust in the truth they are telling.

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: you therefore do greatly err.


He is God of the elect, and speaks to the elect- they will hear it, and follow.

 

[theophilus]

Gentiles are not likened to sheep in M, M, L and John, but dogs (Matthew 15:26 KJV) and in our case in that time past: double dogs (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)!

Still Jesus healed and forgave Gentiles. Just as He does now.

WOOHOO!!!

 

[theophilus]

But how can it be said that Judas chose to damn himself unless there was an alternative he could have chose (which is naturally implied by the very word "chose")?
Isn't one of the premises of Calvinism that man cannot chose to be elect or reprobate, but that it was determined what they would be before they were ever even born?
If God determined that Judas would be the one to betray Him, then Judas did do what God wanted.
Judas was not in opposition of God.

I'll bring my best thoughts on that tomorrow.

opcorn:

*wait for me.