Christian Kids in the Public School

[ParsonJefferson]

Just b/c some people magically come out of public schools good does not mean that schools are good. The law issued by God was good; however, the majority of Jews did not go to heaven. The Holocaust was evil; however, many people became rich b/c of it. You cannot base the goodness of something on the feedback. It needs to be based on God's Word, and His moral standards.

And the schools definately do not teach God's moral standards.

This is true. But if you read what I've been writing through this whole thread, my point has been that it's silly to completely cast off the Public School System as broke, of Satan, and of no use. We need to get in and make a difference, rather than sit on the sidelines criticizing.

 

[dataanapar]

This is true. But if you read what I've been writing through this whole thread, my point has been that it's silly to completely cast off the Public School System as broke, of Satan, and of no use. We need to get in and make a difference, rather than sit on the sidelines criticizing.

Of course sitting on the sidelines would be of no use. But it is fundamentally true that every earthly based organization (although it may be based on God's truths in the beginning) eventually turn away from God. The solution is not to beat a dead horse, by trying to fix a Rolex that has been run over by a dump truck. We need to put the family back into education, and do away with government-funded schools.

 

[Nineveh]

This is pointless.

Yet...

You're determined that every public school is of Satan, and that nothing good takes place - ever - in any of them.

Actually, I believe it is a parent's responsibility to teach their own children. It is not the place of the government to tax everyone for other people's kids. It is not in the best intrest of our nation to have a place to indoctrinate children in the political flavor of the day. I believe at one time, the PS was a service in our nation, but it has become a tool of indoctrination. If you really want to see it change to something better for all the kids, not just your own, you would need to attack the NEA and from there remove the fed both it's money and it's influence. It would need to be locally controlled, and we are a far cry from such an idea.

I'm sorry that your experiences have been so negative. But you REALLY need to stop being so nasty to, and start listening to, people who HAVE had positive experiences and had a positive influence in the Public Schools.

And you need to quit with these silly accusations. This happened just a few days ago on another thread, and I pointed out to you in this one you were doing the same thing, and to other people. The common denominator is you.

 

[JustinFoldsFive]

Actually, I believe it is a parent's responsibility to teach their own children.

And if the parent isn't particularly knowledgeable of science, or history, or math...then what?

By the way, do you have the same animosity toward colleges and universities?

 

[dataanapar]

And if the parent isn't particularly knowledgeable of science, or history, or math...then what?

What I do, is there is a shool up in Chicago who sends me my textbooks, tests, books to read etc. and I finish it all up in about a school year. It is a good point that most parents cannot teach their children everything, especially in upper high-school level courses. Therefore, using a curricullum really helps.

 

[Nineveh]

And if the parent isn't particularly knowledgeable of science, or history, or math...then what?

They take advantage of all the resources available to them.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Actually, I believe it is a parent's responsibility to teach their own children.
That is exactly, and precisely, what my wife and I have done with our 3 kids. And we have used multiple resources made available to us - one of which has been our public schools.
Why do you home-schoolers condemn me for that?

It is not the place of the government to tax everyone for other people's kids. It is not in the best intrest of our nation to have a place to indoctrinate children in the political flavor of the day.
Have you ever been to other countries - on a mission trip, perhaps - that do not have public education?

I believe at one time, the PS was a service in our nation, but it has become a tool of indoctrination.
As does everything, and every institution, when good people simply walk away.

If you really want to see it change to something better for all the kids, not just your own, you would need to attack the NEA and from there remove the fed both it's money and it's influence. It would need to be locally controlled, and we are a far cry from such an idea.
And this will NEVER happen unless, and until, Christians get involved and change things both from the outside AND the inside.


And you need to quit with these silly accusations. This happened just a few days ago on another thread, and I pointed out to you in this one you were doing the same thing, and to other people. The common denominator is you.
Again, I'm going to point out that several of you home-schoolers have been nothing short of nasty and unChristian about this whole issue. Are you unable or unwilling to see that, and admit that - even to yourself?
I am a Christian pastor, who has remained married for nearly 25 years, raised CHRISTIAN children, and has gotten deeply involved in our public schools - yet I'm accused of being "irresponsible" with my kids (among all manner of other things).
How is that kind of behavior Christian?

I do not, for a minute, disparage those who choose to home-school your kids.
I certainly wish that those of you who DO choose to home-school your kids would afford that same level of respect to those of us who have our kids in Public School.

Stop being so disrespectful of people who don't agree 100%.
Stop being so disrespectful of the thousands upon thousands of CHRISTIAN public school teachers, who are in the trenches EVERY DAY, making an impact for the Kingdom of Christ, and loving kids despite the problems.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[ShadowMaid]

Parson Jefferson. You continually accuse us of painting with a broad brush, and yet you continue to paint us homeschoolers with a broad brush. Saying that you can't get homeschoolers to score high on their ACT's?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Parson Jefferson. You continually accuse us of painting with a broad brush, and yet you continue to paint us homeschoolers with a broad brush. Saying that you can't get homeschoolers to score high on their ACT's?

Not true.
Re-read what I've written.


Homeschooled children averaged 1.8 points higher, on their ACT tests, than did public school children. That's far from what one homeschooler here claimed would be "nearly perfect" scores for homeschooled kids.

But keep in mind you're comparing 4,600 homeschooled children, nationwide, to well over a million public school children who took the ACT test.

Now... would you care to let me select 4,600 Public School kids, from across the nation, and compare their ACT scores with the 4,600 Homeschooled kids who took it last year?

 

[ebenz47037]

I'm sorry, but I absolutely do NOT believe that "most" home-schooled kids score either perfect, or close to perfect, scores on their ACTs. I evaluated college scholarship applications - for years - where I used to live, and that simply was NOT the case.

I'm still searching through Google for ACT results. But, I did find SAT scores for 1999 and 2000.

At http://archives.seul.org/seul/edu/Jun-2003/msg00093.html:

HSLDA News
May 7, 2001

Home School SAT Scores for 1999 and 2000

Home School Legal Defense Association recently asked The College Board,
publisher of the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT), if they could tell us how
home schoolers were doing on this college preparatory test. The following
information is excerpted from the College Board's May 2, 2001 fax.

The College Board only has data on home-schooled SAT-takers in the high
school graduating classes of 1999 and 2000.

The numbers and percentages of home-schooled SAT takers has risen slightly
in those two years:

* In 1999, 3,116 of 1,220,130 high school graduates with SAT scores
(0.25 percent) said they were home-schooled.

* In 2000, 5,663 of 1,260,278 high school graduates with SAT scores
(0.45 percent) said they were home-schooled.

In 2000, the group of home-schooled SAT takers also had higher SAT
averages:

* The average SAT scores of home-schooled students were 568 Verbal
and 532 Math, above the national averages of 505 Verbal and 514 Math.

* Among home schoolers---men's scores were 568 Verbal and 554 Math
(vs. 507 Verbal and 533 Math nationwide); and women's scores were 568
Verbal and 513 Math (vs. 504 Verbal and 498 Math nationwide).

* Males were 46 percent of both the home-schooled and the national
SAT populations, and women comprised 54 percent of both populations.

Used with permission of The College Board, 45 Columbus Avenue, New York,
NY 10023-6992, 212-713-8000, www.collegeboard.com.

The parts I emboldened should help a little bit with this question. I think I will check out www.collegeboard.com to see if I can get more info.

I cannot find anything comparing the ACT between homeschoolers and public schooled kids. But, I did find out that most colleges that accept homeschoolers require higher ACT scores from homeschoolers than they do from public schoolers. That could explain why homeschoolers test well. We have to achieve more in order to get the same thing that public school families do.

You will need to provide me something, other than your own claim, to back up that statement.

As you can see in my above paragraph, that's easier said than done.

If you got a 33 of 36 on your ACT, you are obviously EXTREMELY SMART! That's great! But I will PROMISE you that you are in the extreme minority - and by that, I do mean EXTREME.

Actually, I don't think I'm that smart. I just test extremely well. I always have.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Actually, I don't think I'm that smart. I just test extremely well. I always have.

Actually Ebenz, if you got a 33 on your ACT you are VERY smart. Don't kid yourself! And as I've read your posts, and PM'd back and forth with you, it is OBVIOUS that you are very, very bright. Okay... enough of the flattery.

Back to ACTs... I just read that the national average for ACT score is 21. Homeschooled kids averaged 22.8 - or 1.8 points higher.

But that's comparing about 4600 homeschooled kids' scores to well over 1 million public school students' scores. And we both know that percentages and comparisons like that are invalid.

Here's the link: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17950

 

[ebenz47037]

I fully understand that. However, I DO NOT appreciate this condescending, mocking, broad-brush criticism that comes from the Home-School Crowd.

Guess what. As a member of "the Home-School Crowd," I can honestly telly you that we get the same attitude from the Public School Crowd, especially from teachers. I know that I've gotten it from all sides from my own family. The only people in my family who either always agreed with my homeschooling or have come to see that sometimes homeschooling is the better option are my cousin (who homeschooled both his children through high school; his son is now in the military and his daughter is teaching in a private school on and Indian reservation to pay back her tuition.) and my mother (who has come to see that my daughter isn't missing much in terms of socialization by being homeschooled).

But, I've gotten into debates about homeschooling with "professional educators." They have given me the same attitude that you're complaining about homeschoolers giving you. Sorry. We've gotten defensive about our choice on how to educate our children.

I fully understand that.
Can you understand that that has NOT been my experience? Can you understand that there ARE a LOT of EXCELLENT public schools in our country - or would that be impossible to admit?

Sure. I can understand that there might be some good schools. But, I've been to twenty-five schools in five states, and my daughter's been to four schools (two public and two private) in two states, and I haven't seen one yet. That is why I'm skeptical about public schools.

Again, that is your experience. It has not been mine.

And, all of us base our reactions in this discussion on our own experiences. Can you understand that?

Your girl sounds a lot like our oldest son, who taught himself to read when he was 3.

Although I know I'm blessed to have a very intelligent child, I sometimes wonder what it would be like to have an "average" child. :chuckle: The things she can think of to get herself into trouble can be pretty outrageous. :chuckle:

No, this is where the "Auto-Defense System of Home-Schoolers" has kicked in.
I have not said it's wrong to home-school your kids, if that's what you honestly believe is best.
I HAVE said it is wrong to just sit on our butts and criticize the public schools, without doing anything constructive to help improve them. I HAVE said that the attitudes expressed - in this thread - by some of the home-school proponents are nothing less than caustic and un-Christian.

And, I'm saying that some of us have tried to improve the public schools. When we were basically told to butt out, we took our kids out of the public schools. And, wanting the best, academically and morally, is not un-Christian. I'd say that some parents who homeschool do so because they want the best for their child/ren, as do some parents who send their kids to public school and some parents who send their kids to private school.

This is likely true.
And one of the reasons is that Christians - who are supposed to be Salt & Light - have been simply absenting ourselves from public schools for the last 25 years. We ARE reaping what we've sown.
Good points. Thank you!

The thing about that is that a person can only take so much before they remove themselves from a bad situation. And, that's what some of us have had with public schools.

 

[Yorzhik]

Tell ya what... Care to put 3 of your kids up - academically - against my 3 "public school educated" kids? I'm talking about my 3 kids that did NOT learn to roll joints and put on condoms in public school.

Let me give you a hint... You would find yourself, and your kids, terribly humiliated. Let me throw in a little :loser: for your home-schooled education!

Academically? Who cares academically! Homeschoolers are easily better people, and despite your claim, happen to also be better academically, too.

And so the question is, if your kids didn't learn to roll a joint and put on a condom in public school, did they learn that at home?

 

[Yorzhik]

I do not, for a minute, disparage those who choose to home-school your kids.
I certainly wish that those of you who DO choose to home-school your kids would afford that same level of respect to those of us who have our kids in Public School.

Stop being so disrespectful of people who don't agree 100%.
Stop being so disrespectful of the thousands upon thousands of CHRISTIAN public school teachers, who are in the trenches EVERY DAY, making an impact for the Kingdom of Christ, and loving kids despite the problems.

Is that too much to ask?

This post paints with a broad brush. The words you use are the same as the words used by people that hate homeschoolers. How are we to tell the difference? Just ask you?

Now, I think generalizing is a good and proper thing to do. But you seem to be a hypocrite about it.

 

[JustinFoldsFive]

Academically? Who cares academically! Homeschoolers are easily better people, and despite your claim, happen to also be better academically, too.

Um, are you being sarcastic? And what exactly do you mean by "better"?

 

[Nineveh]

Why do you home-schoolers condemn me for that?

The only condemning I'm seeing is from you making these sorts of accusations. I haven't spoken against you at all, I've been speaking against the public school system.

Is there some reason why you put half of your reply inside the quotes of the post you are replying to?

And this will NEVER happen unless, and until, Christians get involved and change things both from the outside AND the inside.

I enjoy my responsibility. I wish I could have my tax money back so I could buy some of the nicer items for education, like a better telescope or microscope.

Again, I'm going to point out that several of you home-schoolers have been nothing short of nasty...

Look, I have tried and tried to point this out to you, not just on this thread but others as well, but obviously it's everyone else that is guilty. From here on out, when you level this accusation, I'm simply going to point you out as a hypocrite.

I do not, for a minute, disparage those who choose to home-school your kids.

I'm not even going to bother to go back and get your quotes.

I certainly wish that those of you who DO choose to home-school your kids would afford that same level of respect to those of us who have our kids in Public School.

If by that you mean stop trying to get folks out of PS, sorry, I won't do that.

Stop being so disrespectful of people who don't agree 100%. ...

Hypocrite.

 

[PKevman]

Parson Jefferson in his own words:

Parson Jefferson in his own words:

I do not, for a minute, disparage those who choose to home-school your kids.

PJ Disparaging:

Let me throw in a little :loser: for your home-schooled education

It is the HOME-SCHOOLERS here who are bragging incessantly about the superiority of home-schooling.

PJ bragging about his public schooled kids:

Tell ya what... Care to put 3 of your kids up - academically - against my 3 "public school educated" kids? I'm talking about my 3 kids that did NOT learn to roll joints and put on condoms in public school. You would find yourself, and your kids, terribly humiliated

Stop being so disrespectful of people who don't agree 100%.

PJ being disrespectful:

Let me give you a hint... You would find yourself, and your kids, terribly humiliated. Let me throw in a little :loser: for your home-schooled education!

However, I DO NOT appreciate this condescending, mocking, broad-brush criticism that comes from the Home-School Crowd.

Note the following quote said to a very young homeschooled lady who was not rude in any way to ParsonJefferson: I find it very condescending and mocking

If you want to do nothing but sit on your butt and criticize the Public School System, fine. But don't expect to be taken seriously, because talk is cheap and non-involved critics are a dime-a-dozen. Sorry...

Parson, you need to consider how your own attitudes have shaped the responses you have received from people. You are behaving quite hypocritically right now, and it is loving for me as a fellow believer to come alongside you and encourage you to stop.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Academically? Who cares academically! Homeschoolers are easily better people, and despite your claim, happen to also be better academically, too.

And so the question is, if your kids didn't learn to roll a joint at home and put on a condom in public school, did they learn that at home?

Excuse me?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

PJ Disparaging:

PJ bragging about his public schooled kids:

PJ being disrespectful:

Note the following quote said to a very young homeschooled lady who was not rude in any way to ParsonJefferson: I find it very condescending and mocking

Parson, you need to consider how your own attitudes have shaped the responses you have received from people. You are behaving quite hypocritically right now, and it is loving for me as a fellow believer to come alongside you and encourage you to stop.

Look, once again, I am going to point out to you that the "LOSER" emoticon - :loser: - was a DIRECT RESPONSE TO, and quote of, a post one of your homeschoolers threw at me.

You need to read the garbage that has been thrown at me, then we can talk.

 

[Yorzhik]

Excuse me?

Oops, I fixed it.

The question was, if they didn't learn those from public school, then did they learn them at home? You said specifically that they didn't learn them in public school.