Well, I may have been public schooled, but I am certainly smarter than "The Barbarian." I think we have proven that sufficiently, and I haven't even posted in this thread very much.
Christian Kids in the Public School
- Thread starter DXPose
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Well, I may have been public schooled, but I am certainly smarter than "The Barbarian."[./quote]
Incompetent People Really Have No Clue, Studies Find
They're blind to own failings, others' skills
Dunning, a professor of psychology at Cornell, worries about this because, according to his research, most incompetent people do not know that they are incompetent.
On the contrary. People who do things badly, Dunning has found in studies conducted with a graduate student, Justin Kruger, are usually supremely confident of their abilities -- more confident, in fact, than people who do things well.
So your belief in this regard fits the rest of your profile pretty well.
There's enough data to make a good inference, I think.
First, academically our schools don't do well. When people encounter bad education, they have come to expect it.
But it doesn't even matter. Even if our public schools could teach academics well, they teach the kids to have bad character which is much more important than academics.
The current rate of teens engaging in intimate activity is epidemic. It is a symptom of broken characters, and these broken lead to a lot of broken families while the children are in school and when the children go on and start their own families.
Your evidence is so week and ill suited for your argument that I doubt you would know good evidence even if it were stuck directly into your brain.
Wow. You are so smart. You really know about figures of speech. You must be a school teacher; am I right? Oh, if I'd only paid attention in school! Uh-oh... I'm homeschooling so my kids probably don't know about this!The Barbarian said:
Barbarian observes:
See previous page. He was under the impression that public schools in the US are a disaster. In fact, they are better than in most nations of the world. Measurably so, because they test 8th graders in about 40 nations in the same science and math tests. Our kids are above average in both.
As you learned, direct comparision with other nations (TIMSS data) show that ours are better than most. No way to sugarcoat it. You're wrong.
In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
TIMSS summary
Turns out that's not true, either. In fact, almost all schools are using the "Six pillars of character" material:
Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices
Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly
Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment
Of course, you might consider these to be "bad character." We'll just have to disagree on that.
Barbarian observes:
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
It is more common in broken homes, which, as you learned, are more common among those who tend to homeschool. Sorry about that.
Barbarian observes:
Stuff like that. The things you guys don't like. Evidence.
You want me to ignore the comprehensive testing of forty different nations for your personal stories? :chuckle:
Barbarian observes:
Actually, if you had been paying attention in school, you'd know it's a metaphor. It's a term applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, suggesting some sort of resemblance.
Barbarian on a young homeschooler's dismay in learning that his "teachers" lied to him:
In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
Well, I attended public school most of my life. So, of course, they taught me what a metaphor is.
As someone else remarked, you don't have to know about things like metaphors, if you're a garbage collector. Don't worry about it.
See previous page. He was under the impression that public schools in the US are a disaster. In fact, they are better than in most nations of the world. Measurably so, because they test 8th graders in about 40 nations in the same science and math tests. Our kids are above average in both.
As you learned, direct comparision with other nations (TIMSS data) show that ours are better than most. No way to sugarcoat it. You're wrong.
In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
TIMSS summary
Turns out that's not true, either. In fact, almost all schools are using the "Six pillars of character" material:
Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices
Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly
Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment
Of course, you might consider these to be "bad character." We'll just have to disagree on that.
Barbarian observes:
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
It is more common in broken homes, which, as you learned, are more common among those who tend to homeschool. Sorry about that.
Barbarian observes:
Stuff like that. The things you guys don't like. Evidence.
You want me to ignore the comprehensive testing of forty different nations for your personal stories? :chuckle:
Barbarian observes:
Actually, if you had been paying attention in school, you'd know it's a metaphor. It's a term applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, suggesting some sort of resemblance.
Barbarian on a young homeschooler's dismay in learning that his "teachers" lied to him:
In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
Well, I attended public school most of my life. So, of course, they taught me what a metaphor is.
As someone else remarked, you don't have to know about things like metaphors, if you're a garbage collector. Don't worry about it.
Not only is your evidence weak, but their is so much evidence against your's that is stronger that has already been cited. Just repeating your evidence doesn't make it right.
This doesn't even respond to the counter evidence cited. It doesn't even address but a tiny fraction of academic performance. Which, you should already know, isn't as important as character.The Barbarian said:
Which brings up the next rejoinder:
So if you sum all these things up you get the epidemic intimate relations that is common in younger and younger grades as time goes by, right?The Barbarian said:
It doesn't matter if that's common among all schools if the kids aren't actually practicing it.
Unless you connect the evangelicals with broken homes to the evangelicals that homeschool, your stat means nothing. This was already pointed out to you, but you ignored it. It's another case of The Barbarian acting like an idiot.
No, you can have that study, but realize in context it means little to the overall performance of schools. The proof is in the pudding: colleges and companies don't like the public school product because it doesn't work. The kids come out of public schools broken from bad character encouraged in the worldview of public schools.The Barbarian said:
So you aren't a teacher? So all that knowledge about how the figure of speech called a metaphor is being wasted on us garbage collectors when it could be taught to the brilliant willing learners trapped in the public school system. Such a terrible thing.The Barbarian said:
You're so smart I'll bet you even know about another figure of speech called hyperbole.
Barbarian observes:
See previous page. He was under the impression that public schools in the US are a disaster. In fact, they are better than in most nations of the world. Measurably so, because they test 8th graders in about 40 nations in the same science and math tests. Our kids are above average in both.
It's a massive comparison of the academic achievement of students in over 40 nations, by comprehensive tests of math and science. It's about as strong as you can get.
Stamping your foot and insisting that the evidence is wrong, isn't "strong evidence." Be honest with yourself, at least. They have nothing comparable to present. The US, in head-to-head comparisons with about forty other nations, is above average in achievement.
What makes it right is that the study is large, and very well documented. The fact that you are just denying the truth won't make it wrong.
Barbarian observes:
As you learned, direct comparision with other nations (TIMSS data) show that ours are better than most. No way to sugarcoat it. You're wrong.
There is no counter-evidence. We are, in math and science, above average. Obviously, you can't produce comparable tests for language and social studies, because that varies so greatly among nations.
It is about half of the core curriculum. I will, of course, be willing to see your other results, showing the US is behind other nations in other subjects.
I'm kinda old fashioned. I think parents should be teaching their kids character. But if you aren't doing a good job of that to begin with, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling at all.
Barbarian on the foolish notion that public schools don't teach character:
Turns out that's not true, either. In fact, almost all schools are using the "Six pillars of character" material:
Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices
Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly
Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment
Of course, you might consider these to be "bad character." We'll just have to disagree on that.
Well, as you learned, the most common sort of homeschoolers have a higher rate of family dysfunction, so it wouldn't be surprising that sort of thing happens.
Turns out that almost all kids tend to accept the values of their parents. At least that's how it worked for me. So, if you take your responsibility as a parent seriously, things will work out for you. Granted, I'm concerned about the way parents are these days. But that's not the public schools.
Barbarian observes:
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
Not surprising, given that divorce rate. When the marriage vows are not taken seriously, it leads to promiscuity. And to some degree, others in society have been affected. Of course, public schools do teach abstinence, but as I said, your children will pretty much take on your values.
If you did your job as a parent, that is.
I'm open to your evidence that there's a difference, but you've declined to show any. Nothing in Barna's data indicates that.
Barbarian laughs:
You want me to ignore the comprehensive testing of forty different nations for your personal stories?
It means they are performing better than most nations. Of course, you might hypothesize that they are doing great in the things we can measure, but awful in the things we can't.
But if so, it's just your imagination, against the facts.
In fact, they seem to love public school students. The vast majority of top graduates are public school students. As you learned earlier, the number of high achieving people in America in the past 50 years show very few homeschooled kids.
As you learned, public schools are teaching responsibility, fairness, respect, trustworthyness, and citizenship. We'll just have to disagree about these being bad traits.
Barbarian observes:
Actually, if you had been paying attention in school, you'd know it's a metaphor. It's a term applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, suggesting some sort of resemblance.
Barbarian on a young homeschooler's dismay in learning that his "teachers" lied to him:
In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
Well, I attended public school most of my life. So, of course, they taught me what a metaphor is.
As someone else remarked, you don't have to know about things like metaphors, if you're a garbage collector. Don't worry about it.
You're starting to hyperventilate again, Yorzhik.
See previous page. He was under the impression that public schools in the US are a disaster. In fact, they are better than in most nations of the world. Measurably so, because they test 8th graders in about 40 nations in the same science and math tests. Our kids are above average in both.
It's a massive comparison of the academic achievement of students in over 40 nations, by comprehensive tests of math and science. It's about as strong as you can get.
Stamping your foot and insisting that the evidence is wrong, isn't "strong evidence." Be honest with yourself, at least. They have nothing comparable to present. The US, in head-to-head comparisons with about forty other nations, is above average in achievement.
What makes it right is that the study is large, and very well documented. The fact that you are just denying the truth won't make it wrong.
Barbarian observes:
As you learned, direct comparision with other nations (TIMSS data) show that ours are better than most. No way to sugarcoat it. You're wrong.
TIMSS summary
There is no counter-evidence. We are, in math and science, above average. Obviously, you can't produce comparable tests for language and social studies, because that varies so greatly among nations.
It is about half of the core curriculum. I will, of course, be willing to see your other results, showing the US is behind other nations in other subjects.
I'm kinda old fashioned. I think parents should be teaching their kids character. But if you aren't doing a good job of that to begin with, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling at all.
Barbarian on the foolish notion that public schools don't teach character:
Turns out that's not true, either. In fact, almost all schools are using the "Six pillars of character" material:
Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices
Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly
Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment
Of course, you might consider these to be "bad character." We'll just have to disagree on that.
Well, as you learned, the most common sort of homeschoolers have a higher rate of family dysfunction, so it wouldn't be surprising that sort of thing happens.
Turns out that almost all kids tend to accept the values of their parents. At least that's how it worked for me. So, if you take your responsibility as a parent seriously, things will work out for you. Granted, I'm concerned about the way parents are these days. But that's not the public schools.
Barbarian observes:
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
Not surprising, given that divorce rate. When the marriage vows are not taken seriously, it leads to promiscuity. And to some degree, others in society have been affected. Of course, public schools do teach abstinence, but as I said, your children will pretty much take on your values.
If you did your job as a parent, that is.
I'm open to your evidence that there's a difference, but you've declined to show any. Nothing in Barna's data indicates that.
Barbarian laughs:
You want me to ignore the comprehensive testing of forty different nations for your personal stories?
It means they are performing better than most nations. Of course, you might hypothesize that they are doing great in the things we can measure, but awful in the things we can't.
But if so, it's just your imagination, against the facts.
In fact, they seem to love public school students. The vast majority of top graduates are public school students. As you learned earlier, the number of high achieving people in America in the past 50 years show very few homeschooled kids.
As you learned, public schools are teaching responsibility, fairness, respect, trustworthyness, and citizenship. We'll just have to disagree about these being bad traits.
Barbarian observes:
Actually, if you had been paying attention in school, you'd know it's a metaphor. It's a term applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, suggesting some sort of resemblance.
Barbarian on a young homeschooler's dismay in learning that his "teachers" lied to him:
In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
Well, I attended public school most of my life. So, of course, they taught me what a metaphor is.
As someone else remarked, you don't have to know about things like metaphors, if you're a garbage collector. Don't worry about it.
You're starting to hyperventilate again, Yorzhik.
Barbarian-
How many languages do you speak?
How many languages do you speak?
Besides English, I speak German and Tex-Mex, rather poorly. I can read Latin and Greek laboriously. I had to learn German, because all chemistry majors were required to learn it at the university I attended as an undergraduate. I can read a little Latin and Greek, because I became a biologist, and a working knowledge of these languages is a big help because of the terminology.
I can read German, Spanish, and Chinese enough to get around as a tourist. I hardly know any Chinese language at all, but fortunately, Chinese writing is language-independent, so if I have to converse with a Chinese-speaker, I can write it on paper, and he'll get it.
Because of the similarity, I can sound out Cyrillic (used for some Slavic languages) and I know just a bit of Russian. I sound a bit like Boris Badenov, when I try to speak it, though.
I can read German, Spanish, and Chinese enough to get around as a tourist. I hardly know any Chinese language at all, but fortunately, Chinese writing is language-independent, so if I have to converse with a Chinese-speaker, I can write it on paper, and he'll get it.
Because of the similarity, I can sound out Cyrillic (used for some Slavic languages) and I know just a bit of Russian. I sound a bit like Boris Badenov, when I try to speak it, though.
My question is way are we still behind other fist nations in mathematics and science? We have plenty of kids going off to college, but not enough choose engineering or medicine. That is why we have so many Indian Physicians; it is not the result of an exchange program, but the result of not enough kids in college becoming physicians.
We do well at turning out lawyers, so, it seems to be a problem stemming from preparation in the areas I mentioned.
We do well at turning out lawyers, so, it seems to be a problem stemming from preparation in the areas I mentioned.
We aren't. As you may have seen, we are score better than average in math and science, compared to other nations. And the gap gets bigger for our best and brightest. We continue to dominate the world in Nobel prizes for math and science.
We are so dominant, in fact, that (as you note) the brightest from other nations often come to the United States to study those things. Our kids have to compete with top students from all around the world, who have come to learn here. It's not a bad thing. It makes it tougher to get an MD degree, but it also means we have a very, very competitive environment.
A meritocracy. The best.
No, it's a small segment (8th graders) tested on just part of what they should know. And as pointed out to you already, the mediocre results of the test you cite are bolstered by teaching to the test, not by subject comprehension. And beyond that, what makes you think the other nations do such a great job academically? Truth be told, none of the nation's public schools in the 8th grade study do very good teaching kids. Not that the academics matter much.
It isn't that the study didn't really come up with the numbers that it did, but the numbers have little bearing on the state of public schools.The Barbarian said:
First, academically, there are plenty of studies that show public schools don't do well. But that isn't why they are a disaster. The disaster comes from public schools teaching bad character. Where do you think epidemic intimate relations come from? Do you think parents teach that to their children?The Barbarian said:
The proof is in the pudding. remedial English and Math is huge in college freshman, and that's after you take out the adult and ESL students.The Barbarian said:
The people that teach your children are the one's that teach them character. Even if you do a good job of teaching good character against the pubic school's teaching of bad character, even the best parents might run into an adult child having a dalliance with atheism.The Barbarian said:
So which of these pillars created the vast problem of children having intimate relations in public schools?The Barbarian said:
The most common sort of homeschoolers?The Barbarian said:
It is the public schools. Most of today's parents graduated from public schools, and their values follow the public schools' more and more and their parents' less and less.The Barbarian said:
Public schools teach abstinence? The Guttmacher Institute doesn't think so. And they don't want abstinence only taught.The Barbarian said:
You're the one making the claim, you're the one that needs to make the connection.The Barbarian said:
Seeing as academics is a minor part of a child's training, this doesn't mean much. Despite that, the most comprehensive testing shows that homeschoolers are the best students in the US.The Barbarian said:
The problem is top graduates don't do all the work. The vast majority of workers come from the under-performing public school masses. Businesses, like colleges, know they are getting a sub-par product from the public schools and they have found various ways to deal with it.The Barbarian said:
So which of these traits are the students relying on that causes epidemic numbers of them to fornicate?The Barbarian said:
That's so informative. Now I know. Can you tell us about another figure of speech called hyperbole?The Barbarian said:
Your faith in your ability to debate is overrated. The young homeschooler easily has the better argument. In fact, most of his points you never even responded to and I'd wager it was because you were afraid.The Barbarian said:
Do you think that average homeschooler get a better job or a worse job than the average public schooler?The Barbarian said:
My quote looks like hyperventilating to you? You need to brush up on your figures of speech. If you cannot figure it out, I'll let yo know next time.
Barbarian observes:
It's a massive comparison of the academic achievement of students in over 40 nations, by comprehensive tests of math and science. It's about as strong as you can get.
So, you're saying we were just lucky because our public school students are uncharacteristically smart in 8th grade, and just happen to be good in math and science, but nothing else? I'm sure everyone would like to see the evidence.
You've confused "mediocre" with "better than average" again. :crackup:
You're telling me that the teachers involved see the test beforehand? I think you're just making that up to save face. Show me.
Some do. Some are even better than many of our states. Few are better than our best states, of course.
As you learned, our 8th graders are above average, compared to the rest of the world. Not bad. We can do better, of course, but you'd have to be pretty dumb to think that's a bad result.
That would explain why you don't like public schools. Their focus on academics bothers you.
Barbarian observes:
What makes it right is that the study is large, and very well documented. The fact that you are just denying the truth won't make it wrong.
It shows that American 8th graders are better than most of the world's 8th graders in math and science. Since the mission of public schools is to educate kids, that sounds like a very important fact.
Barbarian observes:
There is no counter-evidence. We are, in math and science, above average. Obviously, you can't produce comparable tests for language and social studies, because that varies so greatly among nations.
You just can't find one? Pity.
As I said, they teach responsibility, trustworthyness, respect, etc. We'll just have to disagree about whether or not this is "teaching bad character." I'm glad your kids aren't living in my neighborhood.
I know you're going to find this hard to believe, but long before there were public schools, people were having intimate relations. :rotfl: But most schools I know are teaching abstinence. However, the studies I've seen show that what matters is what their parents are teaching them about it.
Barbarian observes:
It is about half of the core curriculum. I will, of course, be willing to see your other results, showing the US is behind other nations in other subjects.
OK. Show me some. How do we compare with other nations. Facts.
So our universities hold students to a higher standard. That's good. But some facts would be useful for you now. If we are better in math and science than other nations, what makes you think we are worse in everything else?
Barbarian observes:
I'm kinda old fashioned. I think parents should be teaching their kids character. But if you aren't doing a good job of that to begin with, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling at all.
Wrong. Turns out, kids rely more on their parents for values than anyone else:
While teens may argue, question, or simply avoid parents, teens regard parents as their #1 source of support and their #1 role model. Research suggests that teens look more to parents for long-term advice (career, marriage, vs. clothes or lifestyle) and hold many of the same basic values as their parents. Adolescents look more to their peers for short-term advice (activities, appearance). Typically, most of the differences that cause conflict between teens and parents are personal taste issues.
http://www.nc4h.org/greenlight/cyfar/one-adult.php
Surprised? Maybe you need to start talking more with your kids.
Turns out that parents still largely win out. If you think public school would have more purchase on you kid than you do, you probably need to be a better parent.
Barbarian on the foolish notion that public schools don't teach character:
Turns out that's not true, either. In fact, almost all schools are using the "Six pillars of character" material:
Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices
Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly
Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment
Of course, you might consider these to be "bad character." We'll just have to disagree on that.
I know you're going to have a hard time believing this, but following these precepts make a child less likely to have intimate relations. If your kid has disappointed you, look in mirror to fix the blame. I can see why you object to the idea of personal responsibility.
Barbarian
Well, as you learned, the most common sort of homeschoolers have a higher rate of family dysfunction, so it wouldn't be surprising that sort of thing happens.
Evangelicals.
Barbarian observes:
Turns out that almost all kids tend to accept the values of their parents. At least that's how it worked for me. So, if you take your responsibility as a parent seriously, things will work out for you. Granted, I'm concerned about the way parents are these days. But that's not the public schools.
As you just learned, that's wrong. Kids tend to take their parents' values. That's what has you scared, um?
Barbarian observes:
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
Not surprising, given that divorce rate. When the marriage vows are not taken seriously, it leads to promiscuity. And to some degree, others in society have been affected. Of course, public schools do teach abstinence, but as I said, your children will pretty much take on your values.
Then the Guttmacher Institute is stuffed with prune product:
Most U.S. public schools teach abstinence-only or abstinence-first sexuality education. Here is the breakdown of the type of sex education U.S. public schools provide students:
35% teach abstinence-only. These programs require that abstinence be taught as the only morally correct option for unmarried people, and either do not allow discussion of contraceptives or allow discussion only of their failure rates. (Most abstinence-only programs are also abstinence-until-marriage programs, which means they are funded by the U.S. government.)
Abstinence-only programs ignore most teens' reality: Many "controversial" topics are left out of these programs all or most of the time. These are such topics as sexual orientation (like being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender), masturbation, teen sexuality as a healthy choice, contraceptives, and abortion.
51% teach abstinence-first. They require that abstinence be taught as the preferred option for young people, but also teach about contraception as an effective means of protecting against unplanned pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).
http://www.sexetc.org/faq/975/
There is evidence that both programs work, but comprehensive programs are more effective in reducing pregnancies and sexually-transmitted diseases.
The impact of schools and school programs upon adolescent sexual behavior.Kirby D.
ETR Associates, P.O. Box 1830, Santa Cruz, CA, USA. dougk@etr.org
Because most youth are enrolled in school for many years before they initiate sex and when they initiate sex, schools have the potential for reducing adolescent sexual risk-taking. This paper reviews studies which examine the impact upon sexual risk-taking of school involvement, school characteristics, specific programs in school that do not address sexual behavior, and specific programs that do address sexual risk-taking. Multiple studies support several conclusions. First, involvement in and attachment to school and plans to attend higher education are all related to less sexual risk-taking and lower pregnancy rates. Second, students in schools with manifestations of poverty and disorganization are more likely to become pregnant. Third, some school programs specifically designed to increase attachment to school or reduce school dropout effectively delayed sex or reduced pregnancy rate, even when they did not address sexuality. Fourth, sex and HIV education programs do not increase sexual behavior, and some programs decrease sexual activity and increase condom or contraceptive use. Fifth, school-based clinics and school condom-availability programs do not increase sexual activity, and either may or may not increase condom or contraceptive use. Other studies reveal that there is very broad support for comprehensive sex- and HIV-education programs, and accordingly, most youth receive some amount of sex or HIV education. However, important topics are not covered in many schools.
Barbarian suggests
I'm open to your evidence that there's a difference, but you've declined to show any. Nothing in Barna's data indicates that.
Evangelicals are most likely to have dysfunctional families and divorces. Most homeschool families are evangelicals. Again, if you claim homeschool evangelicals are different, I'll be glad to listen to your evidence.
Barbarian on public school results in the TIMSS:
It means they are performing better than most nations. Of course, you might hypothesize that they are doing great in the things we can measure, but awful in the things we can't.
Academics is the part the public schools are supposed to provide. Character and morals are parent's jobs, although the school can help out. Teachers joke about parents calling up and saying "my child is out of control; what are you going to do about it?", but it happens.
Odd then, that so few of them distinguish themselves academically as adults. Ah, but they do spell well. No Nobels for spelling, unfortunately.
Barbarian
In fact, they seem to love public school students. The vast majority of top graduates are public school students. As you learned earlier, the number of high achieving people in America in the past 50 years show very few homeschooled kids.
Someone has to sweep Einstein's office. You have a point.
Barbarian
As you learned, public schools are teaching responsibility, fairness, respect, trustworthyness, and citizenship. We'll just have to disagree about these being bad traits.
Yorzhik, these are the good traits. No wonder you don't like public schools. It's pretty simple. If you don't reinforce the message at home, public schools won't save your kid. It's your job. You have to do it.
(Yorzhik asks the difference between "metaphor" and "hyperbole")
Look here:
A hyperbole is a type of figurative language. It is often confused with a simile or a metaphor because it often compares two objects.
http://volweb.utk.edu/school/bedford/harrisms/hyperbole.htm
Barbarian observes:
Barbarian on a young homeschooler's dismay in learning that his "teachers" lied to him:
In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
He carelessly presented a list of supposed home-schooled high achievers in the past 50 years, without checking it for accuracy. In fact, only a few of them were actually home-schooled, and almost none of them were in the last 50 years. This was a disaster for his argument.
In a real debate, that would have been the end of his chances.
Barbarian observes:
As someone else remarked, you don't have to know about things like metaphors, if you're a garbage collector. Don't worry about it.
I know the average homeschooler doesn't get jobs as good as my public schooled kids. That's unfair because my wife and I both have post-graduate degrees, and we both make a higher than average income. The three best predictors of academic success for a child are:
1. Mom has an advanced degree
2. Dad has an advanced degree
3. High family income.
So to be fair, we'd have to adjust for those differences. My guess is that home-schoolers probably are very unlikely to be among very poor or the wealthy.
Barbarian chuckles:
You're starting to hyperventilate again, Yorzhik.
(denail)
Yep.
It's a massive comparison of the academic achievement of students in over 40 nations, by comprehensive tests of math and science. It's about as strong as you can get.
So, you're saying we were just lucky because our public school students are uncharacteristically smart in 8th grade, and just happen to be good in math and science, but nothing else? I'm sure everyone would like to see the evidence.
You've confused "mediocre" with "better than average" again. :crackup:
You're telling me that the teachers involved see the test beforehand? I think you're just making that up to save face. Show me.
Some do. Some are even better than many of our states. Few are better than our best states, of course.
As you learned, our 8th graders are above average, compared to the rest of the world. Not bad. We can do better, of course, but you'd have to be pretty dumb to think that's a bad result.
That would explain why you don't like public schools. Their focus on academics bothers you.
Barbarian observes:
What makes it right is that the study is large, and very well documented. The fact that you are just denying the truth won't make it wrong.
It shows that American 8th graders are better than most of the world's 8th graders in math and science. Since the mission of public schools is to educate kids, that sounds like a very important fact.
Barbarian observes:
There is no counter-evidence. We are, in math and science, above average. Obviously, you can't produce comparable tests for language and social studies, because that varies so greatly among nations.
You just can't find one? Pity.
As I said, they teach responsibility, trustworthyness, respect, etc. We'll just have to disagree about whether or not this is "teaching bad character." I'm glad your kids aren't living in my neighborhood.
I know you're going to find this hard to believe, but long before there were public schools, people were having intimate relations. :rotfl: But most schools I know are teaching abstinence. However, the studies I've seen show that what matters is what their parents are teaching them about it.
Barbarian observes:
It is about half of the core curriculum. I will, of course, be willing to see your other results, showing the US is behind other nations in other subjects.
OK. Show me some. How do we compare with other nations. Facts.
So our universities hold students to a higher standard. That's good. But some facts would be useful for you now. If we are better in math and science than other nations, what makes you think we are worse in everything else?
Barbarian observes:
I'm kinda old fashioned. I think parents should be teaching their kids character. But if you aren't doing a good job of that to begin with, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling at all.
Wrong. Turns out, kids rely more on their parents for values than anyone else:
While teens may argue, question, or simply avoid parents, teens regard parents as their #1 source of support and their #1 role model. Research suggests that teens look more to parents for long-term advice (career, marriage, vs. clothes or lifestyle) and hold many of the same basic values as their parents. Adolescents look more to their peers for short-term advice (activities, appearance). Typically, most of the differences that cause conflict between teens and parents are personal taste issues.
http://www.nc4h.org/greenlight/cyfar/one-adult.php
Surprised? Maybe you need to start talking more with your kids.
Turns out that parents still largely win out. If you think public school would have more purchase on you kid than you do, you probably need to be a better parent.
Barbarian on the foolish notion that public schools don't teach character:
Turns out that's not true, either. In fact, almost all schools are using the "Six pillars of character" material:
Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices
Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly
Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment
Of course, you might consider these to be "bad character." We'll just have to disagree on that.
I know you're going to have a hard time believing this, but following these precepts make a child less likely to have intimate relations. If your kid has disappointed you, look in mirror to fix the blame. I can see why you object to the idea of personal responsibility.
Barbarian
Well, as you learned, the most common sort of homeschoolers have a higher rate of family dysfunction, so it wouldn't be surprising that sort of thing happens.
Evangelicals.
Barbarian observes:
Turns out that almost all kids tend to accept the values of their parents. At least that's how it worked for me. So, if you take your responsibility as a parent seriously, things will work out for you. Granted, I'm concerned about the way parents are these days. But that's not the public schools.
As you just learned, that's wrong. Kids tend to take their parents' values. That's what has you scared, um?
Barbarian observes:
He was also under the impression that public school families are often dysfunctional, when it's a matter of record that broken families are more common among evangelicals than among normal Christians, or even atheists.
Not surprising, given that divorce rate. When the marriage vows are not taken seriously, it leads to promiscuity. And to some degree, others in society have been affected. Of course, public schools do teach abstinence, but as I said, your children will pretty much take on your values.
Then the Guttmacher Institute is stuffed with prune product:
Most U.S. public schools teach abstinence-only or abstinence-first sexuality education. Here is the breakdown of the type of sex education U.S. public schools provide students:
35% teach abstinence-only. These programs require that abstinence be taught as the only morally correct option for unmarried people, and either do not allow discussion of contraceptives or allow discussion only of their failure rates. (Most abstinence-only programs are also abstinence-until-marriage programs, which means they are funded by the U.S. government.)
Abstinence-only programs ignore most teens' reality: Many "controversial" topics are left out of these programs all or most of the time. These are such topics as sexual orientation (like being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender), masturbation, teen sexuality as a healthy choice, contraceptives, and abortion.
51% teach abstinence-first. They require that abstinence be taught as the preferred option for young people, but also teach about contraception as an effective means of protecting against unplanned pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).
http://www.sexetc.org/faq/975/
There is evidence that both programs work, but comprehensive programs are more effective in reducing pregnancies and sexually-transmitted diseases.
The impact of schools and school programs upon adolescent sexual behavior.Kirby D.
ETR Associates, P.O. Box 1830, Santa Cruz, CA, USA. dougk@etr.org
Because most youth are enrolled in school for many years before they initiate sex and when they initiate sex, schools have the potential for reducing adolescent sexual risk-taking. This paper reviews studies which examine the impact upon sexual risk-taking of school involvement, school characteristics, specific programs in school that do not address sexual behavior, and specific programs that do address sexual risk-taking. Multiple studies support several conclusions. First, involvement in and attachment to school and plans to attend higher education are all related to less sexual risk-taking and lower pregnancy rates. Second, students in schools with manifestations of poverty and disorganization are more likely to become pregnant. Third, some school programs specifically designed to increase attachment to school or reduce school dropout effectively delayed sex or reduced pregnancy rate, even when they did not address sexuality. Fourth, sex and HIV education programs do not increase sexual behavior, and some programs decrease sexual activity and increase condom or contraceptive use. Fifth, school-based clinics and school condom-availability programs do not increase sexual activity, and either may or may not increase condom or contraceptive use. Other studies reveal that there is very broad support for comprehensive sex- and HIV-education programs, and accordingly, most youth receive some amount of sex or HIV education. However, important topics are not covered in many schools.
Barbarian suggests
I'm open to your evidence that there's a difference, but you've declined to show any. Nothing in Barna's data indicates that.
Evangelicals are most likely to have dysfunctional families and divorces. Most homeschool families are evangelicals. Again, if you claim homeschool evangelicals are different, I'll be glad to listen to your evidence.
Barbarian on public school results in the TIMSS:
It means they are performing better than most nations. Of course, you might hypothesize that they are doing great in the things we can measure, but awful in the things we can't.
Academics is the part the public schools are supposed to provide. Character and morals are parent's jobs, although the school can help out. Teachers joke about parents calling up and saying "my child is out of control; what are you going to do about it?", but it happens.
Odd then, that so few of them distinguish themselves academically as adults. Ah, but they do spell well. No Nobels for spelling, unfortunately.
Barbarian
In fact, they seem to love public school students. The vast majority of top graduates are public school students. As you learned earlier, the number of high achieving people in America in the past 50 years show very few homeschooled kids.
Someone has to sweep Einstein's office. You have a point.
Barbarian
As you learned, public schools are teaching responsibility, fairness, respect, trustworthyness, and citizenship. We'll just have to disagree about these being bad traits.
Yorzhik, these are the good traits. No wonder you don't like public schools. It's pretty simple. If you don't reinforce the message at home, public schools won't save your kid. It's your job. You have to do it.
(Yorzhik asks the difference between "metaphor" and "hyperbole")
Look here:
A hyperbole is a type of figurative language. It is often confused with a simile or a metaphor because it often compares two objects.
http://volweb.utk.edu/school/bedford/harrisms/hyperbole.htm
Barbarian observes:
Barbarian on a young homeschooler's dismay in learning that his "teachers" lied to him:
In other words, he was caught off guard to learn that what he had assumed to be true was entirely false.
He carelessly presented a list of supposed home-schooled high achievers in the past 50 years, without checking it for accuracy. In fact, only a few of them were actually home-schooled, and almost none of them were in the last 50 years. This was a disaster for his argument.
In a real debate, that would have been the end of his chances.
Barbarian observes:
As someone else remarked, you don't have to know about things like metaphors, if you're a garbage collector. Don't worry about it.
I know the average homeschooler doesn't get jobs as good as my public schooled kids. That's unfair because my wife and I both have post-graduate degrees, and we both make a higher than average income. The three best predictors of academic success for a child are:
1. Mom has an advanced degree
2. Dad has an advanced degree
3. High family income.
So to be fair, we'd have to adjust for those differences. My guess is that home-schoolers probably are very unlikely to be among very poor or the wealthy.
Barbarian chuckles:
You're starting to hyperventilate again, Yorzhik.
(denail)
Yep.
:blabla:
