Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

beloved57

Well-known member
1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30


that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversly for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
So if a child dies not of the elect. Do they go to hell?

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it" (Deut. 1:39).
 

Nanja

Well-known member
1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30


that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversly for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.

Amen Brother! The Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively for all those whom the Father has not appointed to wrath,
but rather they were predestinated to Eternal Life in His Son Eph. 1:4-11; for He knew them even before the foundation of the world.

Acts 15:18 - Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

And He most certainly has a right to make His Creatures for whatever Purpose He so Chooses.

Dan. 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

The God we Serve Brother, is that which He Desires He Performs !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Amen Brother! The Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively for all those whom the Father has not appointed to wrath,
but rather they were predestinated to Eternal Life in His Son Eph. 1:4-11; for He knew them even before the foundation of the world.

Acts 15:18 - Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

And He most certainly has a right to make His Creatures for whatever Purpose He so Chooses.

Dan. 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

The God we Serve Brother, is that which He Desires He Performs !
Amen Sister!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
So if a child dies not of the elect. Do they go to hell?

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it" (Deut. 1:39).
Yes!
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
I believe in John 3:16. What did Jesus say about election.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

everyone
πᾶς (pas)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

who
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

believes
πιστεύων (pisteuōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 4100: From pistis; to have faith, i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust.
 

OZOS

Active member
Jesus died for ALL sins, of ALL men, for ALL time.
To believe otherwise is reject the gospel that saves.

And...

To say that any man is saved BY His death, is blasphemy.

Saved by His death was/is the false foundation established by the heretic, John Calvin, and permeates the cult of reformed theology today.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I believe in John 3:16. What did Jesus say about election.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

everyone
πᾶς (pas)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

who
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

believes
πιστεύων (pisteuōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 4100: From pistis; to have faith, i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust.
Do you care to discuss the OP ?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jesus died for ALL sins, of ALL men, for ALL time.
To believe otherwise is reject the gospel that saves.

And...

To say that any man is saved BY His death, is blasphemy.

Saved by His death was/is the false foundation established by the heretic, John Calvin, and permeates the cult of reformed theology today.
Do you care to discuss the OP ?
 

OZOS

Active member
1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ?
I'm sure you do believe that, but by saying "who died for us" does not exclude anyone else. Example: If you are having a wedding and you send out wedding invitations to everyone, only those who come to the wedding are included in the event, and it would be correct to say "who invited us".

Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


Yes, I'm very familiar with the word ποιέω, and you are adding to the broad spectrum of it's meaning to force your interpretation of the text. God has "made/created" all things. He has indeed created some for honor and some for dishonor. Romans 9 is about Jews and Gentiles.

Try reading the whole Bible and leave the heretic John Calvin where he belongs, among those appointed to wrath.

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


In the gospel, delivered unto the apostle Paul, he brings his message to both Jews and Gentiles, who are saved by grace through faith. Abraham is the father of "many nations", not just Israel, because salvation is available to ALL men who believe, just as Abraham believed. Even though God sovereignly chose for Israel to bring forth the seed, it does not exclude anyone else, outside of Israel to receive the promise. Jacob had preeminence over Esau, just as Israel had preeminence over the Gentiles. But God broke down the dividing wall, so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

No matter what view and opinion the Jews may have about the Gentiles being made partakers, it is up to God as to HOW men are saved. If God wants to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, having compassion and mercy on them, that is His own sovereign will, and who are you (Jews) to tell God whom He can have mercy on?

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

The arrogance of the Jews, that they are God's chosen people because they have the Law, etc., does not exclude God's mercy being extended to the Gentiles. God used the nation of Israel to make His name known, so that He could bring salvation to ALL.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

God endured all those among both Jews and Gentiles who did not believe, in order to bring salvation to those who do believe.

"As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."

Only those who come to God by faith, and not by the works of the Law are made righteous. It matters not if they are Jews or Gentiles, which is what this chapter is about, and not the perverted distortion being presented by the reformers, who arrogantly conclude that they are hand picked by God for salvation.

How do we know this is all about Gentiles being offered mercy and compassion apart from the works of the Law or the covenants given to Israel?

We finish the chapter...

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

You no longer have any excuse for your confusing distortions of Romans 9
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I'm sure you do believe that, but by saying "who died for us" does not exclude anyone else. Example: If you are having a wedding and you send out wedding invitations to everyone, only those who come to the wedding are included in the event, and it would be correct to say "who invited us".




Yes, I'm very familiar with the word ποιέω, and you are adding to the broad spectrum of it's meaning to force your interpretation of the text. God has "made/created" all things. He has indeed created some for honor and some for dishonor. Romans 9 is about Jews and Gentiles.

Try reading the whole Bible and leave the heretic John Calvin where he belongs, among those appointed to wrath.

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


In the gospel, delivered unto the apostle Paul, he brings his message to both Jews and Gentiles, who are saved by grace through faith. Abraham is the father of "many nations", not just Israel, because salvation is available to ALL men who believe, just as Abraham believed. Even though God sovereignly chose for Israel to bring forth the seed, it does not exclude anyone else, outside of Israel to receive the promise. Jacob had preeminence over Esau, just as Israel had preeminence over the Gentiles. But God broke down the dividing wall, so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

No matter what view and opinion the Jews may have about the Gentiles being made partakers, it is up to God as to HOW men are saved. If God wants to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, having compassion and mercy on them, that is His own sovereign will, and who are you (Jews) to tell God whom He can have mercy on?

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

The arrogance of the Jews, that they are God's chosen people because they have the Law, etc., does not exclude God's mercy being extended to the Gentiles. God used the nation of Israel to make His name known, so that He could bring salvation to ALL.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

God endured all those among both Jews and Gentiles who did not believe, in order to bring salvation to those who do believe.

"As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."

Only those who come to God by faith, and not by the works of the Law are made righteous. It matters not if they are Jews or Gentiles, which is what this chapter is about, and not the perverted distortion being presented by the reformers, who arrogantly conclude that they are hand picked by God for salvation.

How do we know this is all about Gentiles being offered mercy and compassion apart from the works of the Law or the covenants given to Israel?

We finish the chapter...

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

You no longer have any excuse for your confusing distortions of Romans 9
Its obvious you cant receive this sacred truth.
 

OZOS

Active member
Its obvious you cant receive this sacred truth.
LOL. That's all you have? What a pathetic loser, you are. Romans 9 does not fit into your demonically inspired box, so you run away like a little swine and wallow in the mud. ALL those who adopt Calvinism, in any form, are elected, chosen and predestined for eternal destruction.

Romans 9 concerns God's sovereign choice to extend His mercy and compassion to Gentiles. You're a moron.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Those who were appointed to wrath were never objects of Gods Love, but conversely objects of His Hatred Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I believe this hatred for the non elect vessels of wrath is as everlasting as His Love for His elect vessels of mercy.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
Those who were appointed to wrath were never objects of Gods Love, but conversely objects of His Hatred Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I believe this hatred for the non elect vessels of wrath is as everlasting as His Love for His elect vessels of mercy.
"See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son" (Heb. 12:16).

That is why God was upset with Esau. Plus Esau married out of the tribe.
 

OZOS

Active member
Those who were appointed to wrath were never objects of Gods Love, but conversely objects of His Hatred Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I believe this hatred for the non elect vessels of wrath is as everlasting as His Love for His elect vessels of mercy.
"And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren."

You lack maturity and the knowledge of both the Bible and the gospel to openly discuss the things of God.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Those who were appointed to wrath were never objects of Gods Love, but conversely objects of His Hatred Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I believe this hatred for the non elect vessels of wrath is as everlasting as His Love for His elect vessels of mercy.

I believe so also Brother, as scripture does not teach that we should love and pray for workers of iniquity, i.e, false teachers; but just as Paul,
when he prayed that they go to hell, as they were appointed Gal. 1:8-9. So then likewise, as God hates these people Ps. 5:5, we who are His Vessels of Mercy, are wrong to love them whom God hates. But yet, for His Vessels of Mercy, His Everlasting Love!
 

OZOS

Active member
I believe so also Brother, as scripture does not teach that we should love and pray for workers of iniquity, i.e, false teachers; but just as Paul,
when he prayed that they go to hell, as they were appointed Gal. 1:8-9. So then likewise, as God hates these people Ps. 5:5, we who are His Vessels of Mercy, are wrong to love them whom God hates. But yet, for His Vessels of Mercy, His Everlasting Love!
You have an evil, unbelieving heart, and the ONLY words you will ever hear, from the Lord Jesus Christ, are "I never knew you".
Reformers, and all those who belong to the anti-Christ cult of Calvinism, are predestined, elected, and chosen for eternal separation from the life of God, for having rejected the gospel that saves, which is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
You have an evil, unbelieving heart, and the ONLY words you will ever hear, from the Lord Jesus Christ, are "I never knew you".
Reformers, and all those who belong to the anti-Christ cult of Calvinism, are predestined, elected, and chosen for eternal separation from the life of God, for having rejected the gospel that saves, which is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
Which is the Whole World [kosmos]of God's Elect exclusively !
 
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