Can a Christian lose their salvation

JudgeRightly

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Thus the law of God converts our hearts. I've never heard a dispensationalist say this, yet it is scriptural. It's one of many reason's I am not a dispensationalist.

Paul says the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ.

After which, we no longer need a tutor, and are no longer under the law.

If that's not conversion, I don't know what is.

You might also read Hebrews 11 known as the faith chapter. It's full of the names of people the Bible lists as heroes of faith yet I've never seen. or heard, a MADist admit that faith has anything to do with OT times.

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" according to Paul.

Did you somehow miss that teaching of MADs?

You all say the OT people were legalists.

No, we don't.

We say that they were required to follow the law, which included having faith in God.
 

Gary K

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Paul says the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ.

After which, we no longer need a tutor, and are no longer under the law.

If that's not conversion, I don't know what is.



"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" according to Paul.

Did you somehow miss that teaching of MADs?



No, we don't.

We say that they were required to follow the law, which included having faith in God.
I didn't know that.

We are required to follow the law too.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 

JudgeRightly

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I didn't know that.

Now you do.

We are required to follow the law too.

Gary, would you mind not using the "QUOTE" tags when quoting scripture. It may seem counter-intuitive, but it actually makes it more difficult to respond to what you quote.

If you feel you must differentiate scripture by some means from the rest of your words, use the "BOX" tags. That way whenever someone quotes your posts to respond to them, they can still see what you've copied and pasted or written.

Now, to address what you said:

No, we are not to follow the law.

Paul says "we establish the law."

What does that mean?

It means that we don't tell nonbelievers that the law is done away with. It means that the world is still under the law.

But Paul explicitly states "We are not under law, but under grace" and that those in the Body of Christ are "dead to the law," no longer required to keep it.
 

Gary K

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Now you do.



Gary, would you mind not using the "QUOTE" tags when quoting scripture. It may seem counter-intuitive, but it actually makes it more difficult to respond to what you quote.

If you feel you must differentiate scripture by some means from the rest of your words, use the "BOX" tags. That way whenever someone quotes your posts to respond to them, they can still see what you've copied and pasted or written.

Now, to address what you said:

No, we are not to follow the law.

Paul says "we establish the law."

What does that mean?

It means that we don't tell nonbelievers that the law is done away with. It means that the world is still under the law.

But Paul explicitly states "We are not under law, but under grace" and that those in the Body of Christ are "dead to the law," no longer required to keep it.
I disagree.

Paul also tells us that that the HS enables us to keep the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

BTW, where is the box function?
 

JudgeRightly

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I disagree.

With what, specifically?

Because I was quoting scripture verbatim in some of what I said in response to your claim that "we are required to follow the law too."

Paul also tells us that that the HS enables us to keep the law.

Galatians 5:22-23 does not say that the Holy Spirit enables us to keep the law.

BTW, where is the box function?

 

Gary K

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With what, specifically?

Because I was quoting scripture verbatim in some of what I said in response to your claim that "we are required to follow the law too."



Galatians 5:22-23 does not say that the Holy Spirit enables us to keep the law.



Then what does it tell us when it tells us the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law? That includes the 10 commandments.
 

7djengo7

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OK. It's that you're one of only two people I know of in decades of being a Christian and being on line who cling to this belief of sinlessness.
I doubt he believes he is sinless. But he definitely clings to telling us that he believes he is sinless.
 

Gary K

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I doubt he believes he is sinless. But he definitely clings to telling us that he believes he is sinless.
Both people I have talked to really believe they are sinless. It just goes to show how the devil can lead people around by the nose and they don't know it He's not known as the biggest con artist in the universe for no reason.
 

JudgeRightly

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Then what does it tell us when it tells us the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law? That includes the 10 commandments.

That's not what it says at all.

It says:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

There is no law against those things!

That's the complete opposite of what you said.
 

Right Divider

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Paul also tells us that that the HS enables us to keep the law.
Quote it.

Paul tells us that we are not under the law.

Rom 6:14 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Why would be need the HS to enable us keep the law if we are not under the law?
 
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Gary K

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Quote it.

Paul tells us that we are not under the law.

Rom 6:14 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Why would be need the HS to enable us keep the law if we are not under the law?
Easy enough to do.



Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

Hoping

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OK. It's that you're one of only two people I know of in decades of being a Christian and being on line who cling to this belief of sinlessness.
I am convinced that Paul, Peter, John, and James all believed the same thing.
It is written...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
 

Gary K

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In this passage, where does Paul say anything about keeping any law? Nowhere.
Do you have trouble understanding what "violates no law" means? And what about the previous several verses?


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Paul makes it plain that those who violate the 10 commandments will not go to heaven. Thus they are a requirement.

Let me tell you a story about myself. After my wife and I got married and I finished the schooling I was taking I started collecting old books at garage sales. I found a text book on physics from the 1890s. I took it home and taught myself the basics of Physics in about a half hour. About 10 years ago I struck up a conversation with a guy in a Walmart parking lot. He was loading his groceries in thew back of his SUV. We talked for quite a while and turned out he was a retired head of sales for a large corporation. He had an mba and a phd in math. While we were talking I mentioned to him that I had taught myself basic physics from an old physics text book in about a half hour and realized that physics was all about ratios. We kept on talking for a while and about 15 minutes later he says you're right. I didn't know what he meant so I asked, what. He said physics is all about ratios. Here he had two post graduate degrees with one of them a phd in math and he'd never realized what I had figured out in less than a half hour. I was astonished to say the least because I had never considered myself all that smart.

I just tell you that so next time you decide I'm stupid maybe you won't go on to embarrass yourself. BTW, I told him about all the reading I have done over the decades and he told me my self education was at least the equivalent of a masters degree.
 
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