Calvinism's Reprobate & Matthew 5:43-48

[7djengo7]

One Calvinist wrote the following:

The simple answer is "Yes, God does have a love that extends even to the reprobate," since He has a love of benevolence over all His creation, which, obviously, includes the reprobate (Matthew 5:43-48, Acts 14: 14-18).

Let's take a quick look at the first of those attempted (and failed) proof-texts to which he sought appeal for his claim that God loves Calvinism's eternally reprobate (which is, manifestly, one of the most stupid claims imaginable, when you realize that, according to Calvinism, God eternally hates those same eternally reprobate!) In Matthew 5:43-48, we read:

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The question that arises against the Calvinist upon a careful reading of this passage is, Where, in this passage, is there the least hint of a reference to Calvinism's eternally reprobate? The fact is, it's nowhere!

But, at least one Calvinist has apparently decided to try to make out certain phrases in the passage--viz., "thine enemy", "your enemies", "them that hate you", "them that curse you", "them that despitefully use you, and persecute you", "the evil", and "the unjust"--as indicating Calvinism's eternally reprobate or non-elect. It's astonishing how ridiculous such an idea is, however, since, if it were true, then all of Calvinism's eternally elect must necessarily be debarred from having ever been enemies of Christ's saints. That is, no Christian will have ever been a hateful enemy of Christ and His saints, even prior to his/her becoming a Christian, and his/her regeneration by the Holy Spirit! And, every person who, at any time, was the hateful enemy of Christ and Christians, will necessarily be one of Calvinism's eternally reprobate. So, if Matthew 5:43-48 is really talking about Calvinism's reprobate, then you may as well rip out and reject all the Pauline Epistles from your Bible as the product of a reprobate mind, since, according to Calvinism's wresting (to its own destruction) of the Matthew passage, Saul of Tarsus, a zealously, murderously hateful enemy of Christ and His saints, must be counted among Calvinism's eternally reprobate.

Now there's a glaring sample of Calvinistic eisegesis upon the New Testament for your consideration!

 

[Lon]

One Calvinist wrote the following:



Let's take a quick look at the first of those attempted (and failed) proof-texts to which he sought appeal for his claim that God loves Calvinism's eternally reprobate (which is, manifestly, one of the most stupid claims imaginable, when you realize that, according to Calvinism, God eternally hates those same eternally reprobate!) In Matthew 5:43-48, we read:



The question that arises against the Calvinist upon a careful reading of this passage is, Where, in this passage, is there the least hint of a reference to Calvinism's eternally reprobate? The fact is, it's nowhere!

But, at least one Calvinist has apparently decided to try to make out certain phrases in the passage--viz., "thine enemy", "your enemies", "them that hate you", "them that curse you", "them that despitefully use you, and persecute you", "the evil", and "the unjust"--as indicating Calvinism's eternally reprobate or non-elect. It's astonishing how ridiculous such an idea is, however, since, if it were true, then all of Calvinism's eternally elect must necessarily be debarred from having ever been enemies of Christ's saints. That is, no Christian will have ever been a hateful enemy of Christ and His saints, even prior to his/her becoming a Christian, and his/her regeneration by the Holy Spirit! And, every person who, at any time, was the hateful enemy of Christ and Christians, will necessarily be one of Calvinism's eternally reprobate. So, if Matthew 5:43-48 is really talking about Calvinism's reprobate, then you may as well rip out and reject all the Pauline Epistles from your Bible as the product of a reprobate mind, since, according to Calvinism's wresting (to its own destruction) of the Matthew passage, Saul of Tarsus, a zealously, murderously hateful enemy of Christ and His saints, must be counted among Calvinism's eternally reprobate.

Now there's a glaring sample of Calvinistic eisegesis upon the New Testament for your consideration!

Actually, its an example, glaring or otherwise, of your reasoning, right? One point necessarily has to lead to the other or everybody cannot get on board. Perhaps you need to explain how to get to the obvious conclusion. If so, maybe I'll stop being a Calvinist.... To be honest, because I'm not seeing it, it is likely the reason it took months for anybody to respond.

Matthew 5:45;43-48 If God calls you to love all, certainly He loves all. Some Calvinists will argue this point, but AMR (In Our Precious Savior's presence) and other Calvinists disagree. 2 Peter 3:9 AMR would also post from his massive arsenal of Creeds and explanation with His PhD behind those valuable posts, but I believe I can give the gist here in laymen's terms. In Him -Lon

 

[7djengo7]

Actually, its an example, glaring or otherwise, of your reasoning, right? One point necessarily has to lead to the other or everybody cannot get on board. Perhaps you need to explain how to get to the obvious conclusion. If so, maybe I'll stop being a Calvinist.... To be honest, because I'm not seeing it, it is likely the reason it took months for anybody to respond.

Matthew 5:45;43-48 If God calls you to love all, certainly He loves all. Some Calvinists will argue this point, but AMR (In Our Precious Savior's presence) and other Calvinists disagree. 2 Peter 3:9 AMR would also post from his massive arsenal of Creeds and explanation with His PhD behind those valuable posts, but I believe I can give the gist here in laymen's terms. In Him -Lon

Of course, of all those who have taken months to respond to my post, not one of them has answered the question I had asked therein:

​

The question that arises against the Calvinist upon a careful reading of this passage (Matthew 5:43-48) is, Where, in this passage, is there the least hint of a reference to Calvinism's eternally reprobate?​

​

​

I reckon many, many, many more months are likely to come to pass without this question ever being answered.

 

[Lon]

Of course, of all those who have taken months to respond to my post, not one of them has answered the question I had asked therein:



I reckon many, many, many more months are likely to come to pass without this question ever being answered.

The answer is from your own scripture understanding as well. Lets see if we agree or not: Matthew 5:45 He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Point: Rain certainly, but more: it is a metaphor for giving necessity of life to those who are His, and those who aren't. Mathew 13:24-30 is tied to it in metaphor: God is taking care of the whole world. Disagreements, as far as I'm concerned, are Okay. We don't have to agree on everything, we have to agree on how Christ saved us. -Lon

 

[beloved57]

The answer is from your own scripture understanding as well. Lets see if we agree or not: Matthew 5:45 He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Point: Rain certainly, but more: it is a metaphor for giving necessity of life to those who are His, and those who aren't. Mathew 13:24-30 is tied to it in metaphor: God is taking care of the whole world. Disagreements, as far as I'm concerned, are Okay. We don't have to agree on everything, we have to agree on how Christ saved us. -Lon

God physically provides earthly blessings to the reprobate without loving them, like a jailor provides for the physical needs of prisoners without loving them, hes just doing his job

 

[beloved57]

amr

Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
The simple answer is "Yes, God does have a love that extends even to the reprobate," since He has a love of benevolence over all His creation, which, obviously, includes the reprobate (Matthew 5:43-48, Acts 14: 14-18).

First sorry to hear about amr, however I would disagree that God has a love for the reprobate, in fact I would argue He has a hatred for them Ps 5:5. God merely preserves them here on earth as it is good and suitable for His Purpose. Like He did Pharaoh

 

[Lon]

God physically provides earthly blessings to the reprobate without loving them, like a jailor provides for the physical needs of prisoners without loving them, hes just doing his job

Except God is love. In this sense, it is 'what kind of love' you are talking about. Feeding a prisoner, can be seen as loving.

We are called to love our enemies. Is it a matter of 'do what I say, not what I do?' :nono: I don't believe so. Jesus told us [I believe it applicable to us) if we didn't hate our mother and father, we were unworthy of Him. Thus, the scriptures give ideas that need to be filtered through His lens. He is communicating some other idea than 'its good to hate your mother and father.' Whatever we apply, necessarily has to be in agreement with the whole of scriptures. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and does no one wrong. God doesn't 'wrong' He is just and always 'right.' Because of that, God is indeed the judge of those who reject so great a love. While God is certainly sovereign, it was nowhere His desire that men perish, nor is He willing than any "should" perish.

amr


First sorry to hear about amr, however I would disagree that God has a love for the reprobate, in fact I would argue He has a hatred for them Ps 5:5. God merely preserves them here on earth as it is good and suitable for His Purpose. Like He did Pharaoh

God is love. Love hardens hearts. Mercy and grace harden hearts. God cannot, not love. It is His nature. Rather, the whole of all He does comes from all of His nature. Hate is reserved for sin; harm done by arrogance, selfishness, and mindless violence. He hates Psalm 5:5 'all workers of iniquity' but 'working iniquity' is the requisite of hate. Jonah went to Ninevah because God "didn't" hate them with abandon. You have to necessarily, then, as above, qualify the scope of 'hatred.'

Does God 'hate' Hitler? In every sense that Hitler did and was evil, yes. Did God want Hitler to perish? No. He didn't want him to do atrocity. Rather, God used it, to show evil as utterly evil, to draw people to what is right, and to work good. Romans 8:28

 

[beloved57]

Except God is love. In this sense, it is 'what kind of love' you are talking about. Feeding a prisoner, can be seen as loving.

We are called to love our enemies. Is it a matter of 'do what I say, not what I do?' :nono: I don't believe so. Jesus told us [I believe it applicable to us) if we didn't hate our mother and father, we were unworthy of Him. Thus, the scriptures give ideas that need to be filtered through His lens. He is communicating some other idea than 'its good to hate your mother and father.' Whatever we apply, necessarily has to be in agreement with the whole of scriptures. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and does no one wrong. God doesn't 'wrong' He is just and always 'right.' Because of that, God is indeed the judge of those who reject so great a love. While God is certainly sovereign, it was nowhere His desire that men perish, nor is He willing than any "should" perish.

God is love. Love hardens hearts. Mercy and grace harden hearts. God cannot, not love. It is His nature. Rather, the whole of all He does comes from all of His nature. Hate is reserved for sin; harm done by arrogance, selfishness, and mindless violence. He hates Psalm 5:5 'all workers of iniquity' but 'working iniquity' is the requisite of hate. Jonah went to Ninevah because God "didn't" hate them with abandon. You have to necessarily, then, as above, qualify the scope of 'hatred.'

Does God 'hate' Hitler? In every sense that Hitler did and was evil, yes. Did God want Hitler to perish? No. He didn't want him to do atrocity. Rather, God used it, to show evil as utterly evil, to draw people to what is right, and to work good. Romans 8:28

God being love has nothing to do with the repboate He hates.

 

[Lon]

God being love has nothing to do with the repboate He hates.

A couple of questions:

1) Does God want you to love your enemies? David said he hated God's enemies, was that right? What, if anything, is the difference? I have a few scriptures in mind for these, which come to your mind?

2) Does God want you to love His enemies? Is there a difference, or should there be?

3) What does God's hate look like? Is it the same as man's? Different in any ways? Is it very important to discuss the difference or is it okay to tell anybody "God hates the reprobate."

 

[beloved57]

A couple of questions:

1) Does God want you to love your enemies? David said he hated God's enemies, was that right? What, if anything, is the difference? I have a few scriptures in mind for these, which come to your mind?

2) Does God want you to love His enemies? Is there a difference, or should there be?

3) What does God's hate look like? Is it the same as man's? Different in any ways? Is it very important to discuss the difference or is it okay to tell anybody "God hates the reprobate."

God hates the reprobate PS 5:5

 

[Lon]

God hates the reprobate PS 5:5

Part of the problem most have with Calvinism, in any form, is that nothing is explained through, as if all or half of scriptures are ignored. Those not Calvinists quote John 3:16, rightly, that God loves (and He does).

So, first, answer my questions above and show you know the scriptures and not just mantras that stop critical thinking. "Study to show yourself approved." 2 Timothy 2:15 Proverbs 4:7

Second, answer another simple question: Did God always hate? Is 'hate' part of His nature? When or why? Nobody will ever think your understanding of Calvinism is scripture if you cannot explain these questions with answers from scriptures. Its a simple yet necessary request. There is no sense in participating on TOL with nonCalvinists unless you can show your position is scriptural.

 

[beloved57]

Part of the problem most have with Calvinism, in any form, is that nothing is explained through, as if all or half of scriptures are ignored. Those not Calvinists quote John 3:16, rightly, that God loves (and He does).

So, first, answer my questions above and show you know the scriptures and not just mantras that stop critical thinking. "Study to show yourself approved." 2 Timothy 2:15 Proverbs 4:7

Second, answer another simple question: Did God always hate? Is 'hate' part of His nature? When or why? Nobody will ever think your understanding of Calvinism is scripture if you cannot explain these questions with answers from scriptures. Its a simple yet necessary request. There is no sense in participating on TOL with nonCalvinists unless you can show your position is scriptural.

According to Ps 5:5 does God hate people ? Yes or No

 

[Lon]

According to Ps 5:5 does God hate people ? Yes or No

Yes, in the same vein as you are supposed to hate your parents? Luke 14:26, YET Matthew 5:44

Because we want to know all of what God teaches, we don't want to build a doctrine of any one scripture that would contradict anything else He teaches. The most pertinent question that all believers need to answer is 'what does God want me to do? Hate or Love? It is equally important to read Psalm 5:5 along with John 3:16 Hate is always and specifically associated with the sin of a people, it is not reserved for just anybody. It isn't that I don't agree God hates sin. We all hate evil. When I say I 'hate [any given serial killer], it isn't that I want them dead, but that I hate what they've done, the harm, and what they've become in repetition. So, at this point they have become my 'enemy.' Matthew 5:44 reminds me to 'love' this enemy. Can I hate them AND love them at the same time? Yes I can. Justice is doing what is necessary to stop the behavior as well as caring for the individual while stopping the behavior. A policeman doesn't have to treat a serial killer harshly. Rather, the officer is supposed to use what force is necessary to arrest the person and behavior.

In essence, I have agreement with you that Psalm 5:5 is talking about, not a detesting wanting 'nothing to do' with the person (as hate would suggest) but a repulsion in view of their sin and inhumanity. Love, conversely, is an action, not some feely thing. God did and does love the whole world as far as His actions: They favor all. The 'rain' is a metaphor for the benefiting actions of God.

I detested Ted Bundy. I hated all he did, and all he became, and the cold heartless inhumanity of his atrocities against others. Yet, love is what we are called to 'do.' It doesn't mean we stop detesting all that is evil. It means we,rather do good to them, amid the necessity of dealing with their crime/sins.

Point? When hate of God is there, love is right beside it, and both deal together in justice. -Lon

 

[beloved57]

Yes, in the same vein as you are supposed to hate your parents? Luke 14:26, YET Matthew 5:44

Because we want to know all of what God teaches, we don't want to build a doctrine of any one scripture that would contradict anything else He teaches. The most pertinent question that all believers need to answer is 'what does God want me to do? Hate or Love? It is equally important to read Psalm 5:5 along with John 3:16 Hate is always and specifically associated with the sin of a people, it is not reserved for just anybody. It isn't that I don't agree God hates sin. We all hate evil. When I say I 'hate [any given serial killer], it isn't that I want them dead, but that I hate what they've done, the harm, and what they've become in repetition. So, at this point they have become my 'enemy.' Matthew 5:44 reminds me to 'love' this enemy. Can I hate them AND love them at the same time? Yes I can. Justice is doing what is necessary to stop the behavior as well as caring for the individual while stopping the behavior. A policeman doesn't have to treat a serial killer harshly. Rather, the officer is supposed to use what force is necessary to arrest the person and behavior.

In essence, I have agreement with you that Psalm 5:5 is talking about, not a detesting wanting 'nothing to do' with the person (as hate would suggest) but a repulsion in view of their sin and inhumanity. Love, conversely, is an action, not some feely thing. God did and does love the whole world as far as His actions: They favor all. The 'rain' is a metaphor for the benefiting actions of God.

I detested Ted Bundy. I hated all he did, and all he became, and the cold heartless inhumanity of his atrocities against others. Yet, love is what we are called to 'do.' It doesn't mean we stop detesting all that is evil. It means we,rather do good to them, amid the necessity of dealing with their crime/sins.

Point? When hate of God is there, love is right beside it, and both deal together in justice. -Lon

Yes. That settles it, God hates some people !

 

[oatmeal]

One Calvinist wrote the following:



Let's take a quick look at the first of those attempted (and failed) proof-texts to which he sought appeal for his claim that God loves Calvinism's eternally reprobate (which is, manifestly, one of the most stupid claims imaginable, when you realize that, according to Calvinism, God eternally hates those same eternally reprobate!) In Matthew 5:43-48, we read:



The question that arises against the Calvinist upon a careful reading of this passage is, Where, in this passage, is there the least hint of a reference to Calvinism's eternally reprobate? The fact is, it's nowhere!

But, at least one Calvinist has apparently decided to try to make out certain phrases in the passage--viz., "thine enemy", "your enemies", "them that hate you", "them that curse you", "them that despitefully use you, and persecute you", "the evil", and "the unjust"--as indicating Calvinism's eternally reprobate or non-elect. It's astonishing how ridiculous such an idea is, however, since, if it were true, then all of Calvinism's eternally elect must necessarily be debarred from having ever been enemies of Christ's saints. That is, no Christian will have ever been a hateful enemy of Christ and His saints, even prior to his/her becoming a Christian, and his/her regeneration by the Holy Spirit! And, every person who, at any time, was the hateful enemy of Christ and Christians, will necessarily be one of Calvinism's eternally reprobate. So, if Matthew 5:43-48 is really talking about Calvinism's reprobate, then you may as well rip out and reject all the Pauline Epistles from your Bible as the product of a reprobate mind, since, according to Calvinism's wresting (to its own destruction) of the Matthew passage, Saul of Tarsus, a zealously, murderously hateful enemy of Christ and His saints, must be counted among Calvinism's eternally reprobate.

Now there's a glaring sample of Calvinistic eisegesis upon the New Testament for your consideration!

It is certain that Calvinism has its problems as you have well pointed out.

God is smart enough to call and endue with salvation those who choose to believe. God having foreknowledge is fully capable of knowing ahead of time who will choose to believe and who will choose to not believe.

God is love, but He also has given to men the ability to choose.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Those that choose to believe, receive, those who choose not to believe do not receive,

Those that choose to believe receive the redemption and salvation that is available to all, it is available to all because God so loved the world, that he made salvation and redemeption avialable to all, but only those who believe receive that gift

God can know the future without predetermining that future or negating man's ability to choose, However, God can also intervene in the affairs of men as he did by most notably so loving that He gave His only begotten son.

 

[7djengo7]

The answer is from your own scripture understanding as well. Lets see if we agree or not: Matthew 5:45 He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Point: Rain certainly, but more: it is a metaphor for giving necessity of life to those who are His, and those who aren't. Mathew 13:24-30 is tied to it in metaphor: God is taking care of the whole world. Disagreements, as far as I'm concerned, are Okay. We don't have to agree on everything, we have to agree on how Christ saved us. -Lon

Where is Calvinism's "eternally reprobate" in Matthew 5:45? Are we to take "the just and the unjust" as, really, "the eternally just and the eternally unjust"?

 

[7djengo7]

According to Ps 5:5 does God hate people ? Yes or No

Yes. Among them, David, himself--seeing as David was a worker of iniquity in his working of murder and adultery. You don't disagree that to work the murder of Uriah the Hittite and to work adultery with Uriah's wife, Bathsheba, is to work iniquity, do you? And, to work iniquity is to be a worker of iniquity. Thus, David was a worker of iniquity. And, David, himself, said to God: "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

So, what (if any) point do you imagine you're making?

 

[7djengo7]

Yes, in the same vein as you are supposed to hate your parents? Luke 14:26, YET Matthew 5:44

Because we want to know all of what God teaches, we don't want to build a doctrine of any one scripture that would contradict anything else He teaches. The most pertinent question that all believers need to answer is 'what does God want me to do? Hate or Love? It is equally important to read Psalm 5:5 along with John 3:16 Hate is always and specifically associated with the sin of a people, it is not reserved for just anybody. It isn't that I don't agree God hates sin. We all hate evil. When I say I 'hate [any given serial killer], it isn't that I want them dead, but that I hate what they've done, the harm, and what they've become in repetition. So, at this point they have become my 'enemy.' Matthew 5:44 reminds me to 'love' this enemy. Can I hate them AND love them at the same time? Yes I can. Justice is doing what is necessary to stop the behavior as well as caring for the individual while stopping the behavior. A policeman doesn't have to treat a serial killer harshly. Rather, the officer is supposed to use what force is necessary to arrest the person and behavior.

In essence, I have agreement with you that Psalm 5:5 is talking about, not a detesting wanting 'nothing to do' with the person (as hate would suggest) but a repulsion in view of their sin and inhumanity. Love, conversely, is an action, not some feely thing. God did and does love the whole world as far as His actions: They favor all. The 'rain' is a metaphor for the benefiting actions of God.

I detested Ted Bundy. I hated all he did, and all he became, and the cold heartless inhumanity of his atrocities against others. Yet, love is what we are called to 'do.' It doesn't mean we stop detesting all that is evil. It means we,rather do good to them, amid the necessity of dealing with their crime/sins.

Point? When hate of God is there, love is right beside it, and both deal together in justice. -Lon

Good post, Lon.

 

[Lon]

Where is Calvinism's "eternally reprobate" in Matthew 5:45? Are we to take "the just and the unjust" as, really, "the eternally just and the eternally unjust"?

"The rain falls..." Wouldn't it be the 'unjust?' Could you be a bit clearer, please, in what you are asking? Thank you.

 

[7djengo7]

"The rain falls..." Wouldn't it be the 'unjust?'

No. I would not take the "unjust" in Matthew 5:45 as being Calvinism's "eternally reprobate".