BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

I hate to repeat myself, but this whole big subject of God being to blame for people spending eternity in the Lake of Fire was not brought up by us. I will say again that those who do not know the name of Jesus Christ have just as much opportunity to be saved as anyone else. They are STILL saved ONLY in the name of Christ and salvation is found in no other name.

First of all...no one....that I recall anyway...has said that God is responsible for people going to Hell. What HAS been said though, is...IF Hell is eternal, then God is responsible for creating an eternal Hell.

See the difference? It's a big difference, and frankly, I don't understand why you think that the argument is that God is responsible for anyone going to Hell. The arguement is that God would be responsible for what Hell is..and if it is permanent...whether He made things in such a way so that an eternal unending misery with no way out, even the death of Christ and resurrection from death, even exists at all.

If a person is willing to humble himself truly before God and seek the Lord, God will make Himself and the way of salvation known to him. There are many, many people in remote places all over the world who have gotten saved from the ministry of missionaries preaching the gospel to them and their people after they had previously NEVER heard the name of Christ. I think this is a perfect illustration that those who seek God in truth will find Him and those who don't will not!

Absolutely!

Further, another reason why Universalism is so wicked is because the Bible teaches that there is no other name given under Heaven by which a man can be saved. To affirm false religions is to affirm that people come to God based upon something other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, the Bible CLEARLY teaches that there is no sacrifice for sin for someone who has REJECTED the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Spending an "age" or "ages" in a non-literal fire (which is ridiculous anyway to say it is non-literal), is NOT good enough to pay for one's sins. Only trusting in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and being washed by His blood will cleanse a man from sins.

The issue is whether someone is given any opportunity to ACCEPT the sacrifice even if they arrive in Hell...if they can, then the idea that it MUST be eternal for everyone is ridiculous. Christian Universalists do not say all roads lead to heaven...salvation still is in Christ...and the issue before us is whether God can save people even from Hell...not just before one might end up there, but after one does...and thereby be able to draw all things into Christ.

I'm sure I've been clear on this, and frankly I find it deceptive on your part to suggest that this is what I have said.

Universalism is false teaching and is NOT Biblical. It is a twisting road of half-truths and misquoted or misinterpreted bible verses taken out of context.

Plainly put, Universalism=Spiritual Garbage=Man's Way

Gospel=Eternal life=Forgivenness of sins=God's Way

And this, simply, is insulting in it's inaccuracy.
Don't mess with an eternal Hell...that's man's way. Never mind how scriptural it is...it's a misinterpretation and taking verses out of context...after all, God made an eternal Hell and that should be obvious from what the Bible says....Kevin, I'm starting to lose respect for you.

 

[Redfin]

I will say again that those who do not know the name of Jesus Christ have just as much opportunity to be saved as anyone else. They are STILL saved ONLY in the name of Christ and salvation is found in no other name.

A breakthrough! That’s what Christian Universalism teaches! :thumb:

If a person is willing to humble himself truly before God and seek the Lord, God will make Himself and the way of salvation known to him.

Amen! You’re starting to sound like one of us! :chuckle:

There are many, many people in remote places all over the world who have gotten saved from the ministry of missionaries preaching the gospel to them and their people after they had previously NEVER heard the name of Christ. I think this is a perfect illustration that those who seek God in truth will find Him and those who don't will not!

Guess who one of those missionaries is? :think:

Further, another reason why Universalism is so wicked is because the Bible teaches that there is no other name given under Heaven by which a man can be saved.

It’s a good thing that Christian Universalism agrees with the Bible on that, or it would be a problem, just like with generic Universalism.

To affirm false religions is to affirm that people come to God based upon something other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

And Christian Universalism would never do that. :nono:

Also, the Bible CLEARLY teaches that there is no sacrifice for sin for someone who has REJECTED the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Spending an "age" or "ages" in a non-literal fire (which is ridiculous anyway to say it is non-literal), is NOT good enough to pay for one's sins. Only trusting in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and being washed by His blood will cleanse a man from sins.

That’s Christian Universalist gospel, right down the line! :thumb:
(without getting into the literal/non-literal issue)

You sound so much like one of us that before long you may have to change your profile! :idea:

 

[PKevman]

First of all...no one....that I recall anyway...has said that God is responsible for people going to Hell. What HAS been said though, is...IF Hell is eternal, then God is responsible for creating an eternal Hell.

This is really just a semantical dodge Stephen. You and all of the other Universalists have affirmed Balder in his assertions that God is a monster if unrepentant sinners go the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Go back and read the gist of this conversation. It's all there.

See the difference? It's a big difference, and frankly, I don't understand why you think that the argument is that God is responsible for anyone going to Hell.

It sure seems that is exactly what Red and others have repeatedly asserted when they say "IF ET is true then God is a monster for sending people to hell." I mean come on, anyone could go back and read those sings being said over and over.

The arguement is that God would be responsible for what Hell is..and if it is permanent...whether He made things in such a way so that an eternal unending misery with no way out, even the death of Christ and resurrection from death, even exists at all.

God is responsible for what the Lake of Fire is. He made it. But He is not responsible for one soul or fallen angel that goes there. That is chosen by the individual. God makes Himself known to all people and they can either choose Him or reject Him. God hopes and desires they will make the right choice. If they do not they have nobody to blame but themselves.



I said:

If a person is willing to humble himself truly before God and seek the Lord, God will make Himself and the way of salvation known to him. There are many, many people in remote places all over the world who have gotten saved from the ministry of missionaries preaching the gospel to them and their people after they had previously NEVER heard the name of Christ. I think this is a perfect illustration that those who seek God in truth will find Him and those who don't will not!

You said:

Absolutely!

And yet when Balder made his arguments about this the Universalists were affirming him. The argument has also been made by Universalists in this very thread that eternal punishment is NOT fair because of the people that have never heard the name of Jesus. But above you agreed with me. That is good. :up: (And I know you don't agree with eternal punishment but at least we can agree in principle on SOMETHING)

The issue is whether someone is given any opportunity to ACCEPT the sacrifice even if they arrive in Hell...if they can, then the idea that it MUST be eternal for everyone is ridiculous.

But there is no turning back once one arrives in hell, so the rest is a moot point.

Christian Universalists do not say all roads lead to heaven...salvation still is in Christ...

Amen that salvation is in Christ. But IF a person spends this life rejecting Christ and worshipping Satan for example, Universalism says that person can still be saved because they will have further opportunities to repent and believe on Christ later on after death. DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT TEACH THIS?

and the issue before us is whether God can save people even from Hell...not just before one might end up there, but after one does..and thereby be able to draw all things into Christ.

And if the your understanding on drawing all things into Christ is wrong and it doesn't mean that all are saved including Satan and the fallen angels, then what does that do to the rest of your argument? Honestly?

I'm sure I've been clear on this, and frankly I find it deceptive on your part to suggest that this is what I have said.

I'm not entirely sure what point you feel I was being deceptive about, but I am not a deceptive person, so if you FIND me deceptive then you are deceived. I understand you haven't said or agreed with everything that every Universalist has said on here, but many of my statements are directed at what Universalism as a whole believes. If I have misstated what Universalism teaches then please tell me how. I have also read and studied their literature as I have many other false teaching groups such as JW's, Mormons, etc....

And this, simply, is insulting in it's inaccuracy.

What that Universalism is garbage and is a way that seems right to man, but will lead souls to death? That is what I believe about it, and it is my opinion based upon what the Scriptures say. If you give a person a false hope that there is no eternal punishment or even that he faces no literal fire, then you give the deceptiveness of sin an even more powerful hold on that person because they won't believe they have to repent and get saved and can therefore do whatever they like in this life. I don't know why it is so difficult for you to see this or admit it. I see people all the time that make excuses for their sin as it is because they don't want to give it up. Even when presented with the fact that they will spend eternity apart from God if they don't repent, they still won't give up their sin. Universalism gives people false hope. And this is not just my opinion, I have heard many people on this site say the same thing to you and Red and others over and over again.

Don't mess with an eternal Hell...that's man's way.

No it's in the Bible, God's Word.

Never mind how scriptural it is

Universalism is not Scriptural. Just quoting Scriptures does not make something Scriptural. Unless you want to take what Charles Manson taught the family about Helter Skelter and their role in the book of Revelation as Scriptural also.........
It's understanding the Scriptures in context and how they fit in with the Bible as a whole that makes something Scriptural. The belief that people can repent after death is not Scriptural for example. There is not one verse that supports this. The belief that SATAN and FALLEN ANGELS can be reconciled to God through Christ is not only not in the Bible, but is rather completely refuted BY the Bible. No Universalist has bothered yet to try to explain how Satan and the fallen angels are part of the "all" that get to go to Heaven.

...it's a misinterpretation and taking verses out of context...after all, God made an eternal Hell and that should be obvious from what the Bible says....

That is exactly right! Well said!

Kevin, I'm starting to lose respect for you.

Maybe you never had it to begin with then, because my message hasn't changed. Maybe you have really just been flattering me? I have pretty well been saying the same things all along Stephen. If you want to talk about respect how about the fact that during the Battle Royale I spent over 45 hours of my OWN TIME in that week preparing my arguments and YOU were copying and pasting the vast majority of your stuff from Tentmaker's website. Did I try to rub it in on you that you did this when it all came out? NO. But I will tell you my respect of you was greatly diminished when that happened. You restored some of it when you apologized, but I still don't think you really understand what an INSULT that was to me and the work that I was putting into that debate. I put my whole family and my life on hold for over a week to discuss those issues with you. I could make a compelling argument in about 20 minutes if I wanted to copy and past it all, but that is not debating an issue with someone.

If you feel you are "losing respect" for me, then you should come to me in private and give me an opportunity to work it out with you instead of this. I am sorry if I upset you by saying Universalism is garbage, but I have said from the beginning that it is Universalism that I have been attacking and not you. There is no need to make it a personal difference, I do like you as I have said repeatedly. Much as I like you I despise Universalism and believe it to be false teaching. I honestly don't see how my views are any different now than they have been.

God bless you.

 

[PKevman]

A breakthrough! That’s what Christian Universalism teaches! :thumb:

That is not true. You also teach that there are more opportunities to repent and accept Christ after death.

Amen! You’re starting to sound like one of us! :chuckle:

NEVER! What I was saying was that all people have the opportunity to be saved if they will only humble themselves before God. There are many who NEVER will!

Guess who one of those missionaries is? :think:

Why would Universalism need missionairies if everyone is saved in the end anyway? :think:

It’s a good thing that Christian Universalism agrees with the Bible on that, or it would be a problem, just like with generic Universalism.

Ok so lesser heresy is better than full-blown heresy? No I think the deceptive heresy is more dangerous actually. The heresy that hides out in Christianity.

And Christian Universalism would never do that. :nono:

Sure it does. By telling people that they can live this life and reject Christ, but still after they die they can be saved even if they were God-haters, blasphemers, Hitler lovers, Satan Worshippers, or even Hitler and Satan themselves. The entire false teaching of Universalism in fact hinges on this belief in more opportunities after death, which is a completely unBiblical premise. There is not one Scripture that supports it. Not one. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone shown repenting and receiving Christ after death.

That’s Christian Universalist gospel, right down the line! :thumb:
(without getting into the literal/non-literal issue)

That a person can spend an "age" or "ages" in the Lake of Fire and then get out? Thank you for agreeing. The problem is that the Bible doesn't teach this anywhere.

You sound so much like one of us that before long you may have to change your profile! :idea:

I will fight against the false teaching of Universalism (and any other) until the day I die. God has called me to defend and to teach individuals the Bible and that is what I will do. I give Him the praise and the glory for giving me the opportunities to serve Him in this way. I will never become a Universalist.

God bless.

 

[Redfin]

Why would Universalism need missionairies if everyone is saved in the end anyway? :think:

To enable people to begin to glorify God sooner rather than later.

To enable people to begin to enjoy the blessings of salvation sooner rather than later.

To enable people to avoid experiencing hell (in any form) for any amount of time.

:think:

 

[PKevman]

To enable people to begin to glorify God sooner rather than later.

To enable people to begin to enjoy the blessings of salvation sooner rather than later.

To enable people to avoid experiencing hell (in any form) for any amount of time.

:think:

Why would it be a good thing to avoid experiencing hell if it is not a literal fire and is in fact being inside God Himself?

 

[PKevman]

In other words Redfin, if it isn't literal fire then why would it be necessary to help people avoid it?

 

[Ecumenicist]

In other words Redfin, if it isn't literal fire then why would it be necessary to help people avoid it?

Its as literal as God's purifying presence, as real as the flaming sword seperating
humanity from paradise, its as real as the burning bush...

 

[red77]

That is not true. You also teach that there are more opportunities to repent and accept Christ after death.

Which would make more sense than being senselessly tortured for an eternity serving no point or purpose, other than your own perceived notions of justice on God's part.....

NEVER! What I was saying was that all people have the opportunity to be saved if they will only humble themselves before God. There are many who NEVER will!

Even when they've been brought to a knowledge of the truth? Who are you to know what 'many' would never do? God knows the hearts of each man, you do not

Why would Universalism need missionairies if everyone is saved in the end anyway? :think:

So the only reason to preach and share the gospel is to avoid ET then? The whole bringing hope to people that there's a God who loves them isnt worth sharing with folk? :think:

Ok so lesser heresy is better than full-blown heresy? No I think the deceptive heresy is more dangerous actually. The heresy that hides out in Christianity.

The belief that an almighty omnipotent God can be capable of drawing his entire creation - his own handiwork to himself a heresy?

Sure it does. By telling people that they can live this life and reject Christ, but still after they die they can be saved even if they were God-haters, blasphemers, Hitler lovers, Satan Worshippers, or even Hitler and Satan themselves. The entire false teaching of Universalism in fact hinges on this belief in more opportunities after death, which is a completely unBiblical premise. There is not one Scripture that supports it. Not one. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone shown repenting and receiving Christ after death.

Why do you persist in using stereotypes such as Hitler or Stalin? this is just an indication of your own feelings on who deserves to be saved - and you've done it before with the 9/11 bombers, in your doctrine the VICTIMS of the evil committed by men suffer in the same eternal agonising place!! How many people in the world are hitlers or Stalins or even Hitler/Stalin lovers??! Your persistence in using this as an argument is utterly flawed and surely you must see this by now! You'll use your own human standards of what you see as evil in humanity - aka those who cause immense suffering to others - and then balk at the fact that people have a slight problem with believing that the God in your doctrine would make 9/11 and Auschwitz and rape look like a day at a theme park!

That a person can spend an "age" or "ages" in the Lake of Fire and then get out? Thank you for agreeing. The problem is that the Bible doesn't teach this anywhere.

it says they have thier 'part', It also says that God puts the entire universe into subjection TO himself that he may be all in all, bit of a hint in this verse that The LOF (even without the aion equation) and its inhabitants - whatever the LOF happens to be - isnt eternal, do you still hold onto this bizarre idea that the LOF is a literal lake? If you do I would really like you to explain just how much of revelation you actually take literally..........

I will fight against the false teaching of Universalism (and any other) until the day I die. God has called me to defend and to teach individuals the Bible and that is what I will do. I give Him the praise and the glory for giving me the opportunities to serve Him in this way. I will never become a Universalist.

God bless.

until you can believe that God could subject everything to himself and be capable of being ALL in ALL and subjecting his entire creation TO himself then I guess you're right......

 

[PKevman]

Which would make more sense than being senselessly tortured for an eternity serving no point or purpose, other than your own perceived notions of justice on God's part.....

Get a new argument. This is a very weak one. The point and the purpose are that God is holy and righteous and cannot have sin in His holy and righteous presence. Understand? And they are not my "Own perceived notions of justice on God's part". I teach and preach the Word of God, the Bible. God has spoken plainly in the Bible. You dishoner Him and His Word with statements like these. How about you stick to attacking ideas and not people. I can attack you back and what does that gain for us? What you call "My own" perceived notions is accepted by most of orthodox Christianity, so it is hardly "My own". In fact it is God's own because HE is the one who inspired the Bible that you deny.

Even when they've been brought to a knowledge of the truth? Who are you to know what 'many' would never do? God knows the hearts of each man, you do not

Never claimed to know the heart of anyone. Only what God has said in His Word. And God has never said anywhere that people will be brought to the knowledge of the truth after they die. I would think that a statement that important would be pasted all over Scriptures. You find it nowhere. The only way you get it is by twisting the Scriptures. You don't see that because the false teachers who have deceived you have misled you. I am sorry that I have to be the one who is pointing this out to you, but if I didn't care about people (including you) then I wouldn't continue to fight against false teaching.

So the only reason to preach and share the gospel is to avoid ET then? The whole bringing hope to people that there's a God who loves them isnt worth sharing with folk? :think:

In light of eternity the few years they spend here and the "age" they spend in the future would pale in comparison. Under Universalism (not Bible) doctrine they will all be saved anyway.

The belief that an almighty omnipotent God can be capable of drawing his entire creation - his own handiwork to himself a heresy?

Is Satan and the fallen angels included in that entire creation? Will they be saved?

Why do you persist in using stereotypes such as Hitler or Stalin? this is just an indication of your own feelings on who deserves to be saved - Your persistence in using this as an argument is utterly flawed and surely you must see this by now!

Red the argument is hardly flawed. Why do you have such a difficult time with admitting that we will be fellowshipping with Hitler for all eternity? The reason I use those extremes is because in the doctrine of Universalism Hitler will be with us in Heaven. It shows how utterly wicked Universal Salvation is. Hitler was an unrepentant wicked murderer. He is just one example. Child molesters, rapists, mass murderers all get to go to Heaven in the doctrine of Universalism. Sorry if YOU think this is a flawed argument. The flaw is in the doctrine of Universalism.

You'll use your own human standards of what you see as evil in humanity - aka those who cause immense suffering to others -

So Hitler was not evil? My own human standards? God has set standards of right and wrong in His Word. Or do you believe that Red. Hey this is a good question for you: Is there such a thing as absolute right and wrong Red? Yes or No.

and then balk at the fact that people have a slight problem with believing that the God in your doctrine would make 9/11 and Auschwitz and rape look like a day at a theme park!

I could swear I was blasted for saying Universalists haven't been saying this kind of stuff. So if God's Word is true that unbelievers, Satan, the fallen angels, the beast and the false prophet spend eternity in the Lake of Fire in torment, then God is a monster?

it says they have thier 'part', It also says that God puts the entire universe into subjection TO himself that he may be all in all,

I have responded to your all in all verse a zillion times now. It doesn't mean what Universalism says it means. Everything IS under subjection to God because at this point there is NO MORE open rebellion against God like there is NOW. Understand?

bit of a hint in this verse that The LOF (even without the aion equation) and its inhabitants - whatever the LOF happens to be - isnt eternal, do you still hold onto this bizarre idea that the LOF is a literal lake? If you do I would really like you to explain just how much of revelation you actually take literally..........

The Lake of Fire is a real place of pain and suffering that unbelievers, Satan, the fallen angels, the beast, and the false prophet will spend all eternity in. Period.

until you can believe that God could subject everything to himself and be capable of being ALL in ALL and subjecting his entire creation TO himself then I guess you're right......

Wow didn't you already say this before about a zillion times? Why don't you open up another thread in the Christian Only forum about God being All in All and the positions of Universalism on it? It might be an interesting discussion.

 

[Balder]

Get a new argument. This is a very weak one. The point and the purpose are that God is holy and righteous and cannot have sin in His holy and righteous presence.

Do you think the only option God has open to him for removing sin from his presence is by consigning large numbers of beings to a condition of eternal conscious torment?

Is Satan and the fallen angels included in that entire creation? Will they be saved?

Would you be disappointed if Satan and his angels were also saved -- not only "rescued," but transformed and redeemed?

Have you ever considered praying for Satan's well being? You are commanded to pray for your enemies, and I expect he is the chief among them....

Best wishes,

Balder

 

[logos_x]

This is really just a semantical dodge Stephen. You and all of the other Universalists have affirmed Balder in his assertions that God is a monster if unrepentant sinners go the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Go back and read the gist of this conversation. It's all there.

What you view as a "semantical dodge" is in fact the whole gist of our argument. In your view, God either created hell to be eternal or made the conditions whereby men live forever regardless of their relationship with God...then says "smoking or non-smoking" to the creatures He created. The issue has never been that it is God's fault that people face punishments if they don't repent...it is the nature of the punishment they face.

What you seem to be unable or unwilling to acknowledge is that, IF Hell is eternal without any possibility to escape then God made it that way...not people.

Eternal concious torment is the most monsterous thing anyone could possibly ever concieve. You say God concieved it...not Christian Universalists. Balder, surely, isn't the only one that realizes just what it is the docrine of eternal torment accuses God of doing...which is designing a torture chamber of burning fire that endures forever and ever.
NOTHING is more monsterous, and the doctrine of eternal torment says God made it, or will.

It sure seems that is exactly what Red and others have repeatedly asserted when they say "IF ET is true then God is a monster for sending people to hell." I mean come on, anyone could go back and read those sings being said over and over.

But...we never said He is responsible for people going there...but the very idea that this is what YOU and the other damnationalists assert is, in fact, accusing God of creating that in the first place.

See the difference?

God is responsible for what the Lake of Fire is. He made it. But He is not responsible for one soul or fallen angel that goes there. That is chosen by the individual. God makes Himself known to all people and they can either choose Him or reject Him. God hopes and desires they will make the right choice. If they do not they have nobody to blame but themselves.

That still doesn't get God off the hook for creating such a thing (supposedly) in the first place.

You are saying God creates an eternal Auschwich that never ends and from which there is no escape...you negate the resurrection as an escape...and then want to say it isn't God's fault even though He creates it. In fact it's worse than Auschwich, because when someone is thrown into these literal flames they still NEVER die. I think it's an insult to God to accuse Him of creating that senario, and therefore have tried to show that He didn't...in fact I have shown that He dindn't the best I know how.

I said:

If a person is willing to humble himself truly before God and seek the Lord, God will make Himself and the way of salvation known to him. There are many, many people in remote places all over the world who have gotten saved from the ministry of missionaries preaching the gospel to them and their people after they had previously NEVER heard the name of Christ. I think this is a perfect illustration that those who seek God in truth will find Him and those who don't will not!

You said:

Absolutely!

And yet when Balder made his arguments about this the Universalists were affirming him. The argument has also been made by Universalists in this very thread that eternal punishment is NOT fair because of the people that have never heard the name of Jesus. But above you agreed with me. That is good. :up: (And I know you don't agree with eternal punishment but at least we can agree in principle on SOMETHING)

Universalists (as you want to call us...blatently leaving out "Christian") understand what Balder is saying...in fact, I think everyone can understand what Balder is saying...But those that believe that God made or will make an unescapable literal fire in which His own creation will be subjected as a consequence to not accepting the Gospel or of being an unbeliever, and that God will see to it they must spend all future eternity without end in that condition, seem to think this is an acceptable idea. Eternal conscious torment in literal fire, Kevin, is what you are saying God wants to do to unbelievers. How is that NOT monsterous regardless of who's fault it is?

But there is no turning back once one arrives in hell, so the rest is a moot point.

Oh well :idunno: ...Is what you seem to be saying here, Kevin.
Is that what you think God is doing? NO turning back? Abandon all hope all ye who enter here?

It's a moot point?
Maybe to you it is...but a really doubt that it actually is a moot point to you, is it?

Amen that salvation is in Christ. But IF a person spends this life rejecting Christ and worshipping Satan for example, Universalism says that person can still be saved because they will have further opportunities to repent and believe on Christ later on after death. DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT TEACH THIS?

Of course it does. There is the resurrection, which is no moot point at all, even though you don't see it as having any redemptive abilities and offers no escape from death after death, apparently...which makes no sense at all, since resurrection is life out of death. There is the fact that Jesus' death took our death, which Paul lays out as extending to ALL men, and the resurrection which extends as well to all men...there is the fact that Jesus has the KEYS to Hell and death, He being the resurrection and the life.

Kevin..in spite of all that you want death to be the final end of all judgement and extend death's "victory" forever...while the Bible says virtually the opposite...death is swallowed up in Christ's victory, and in the end WHOSOVER WILL never ends until such time as there are no more whosoevers that haven't. No indictaion that the invitation or the Grace that attends it ever stops in the last chapter of Revelation.

And if the your understanding on drawing all things into Christ is wrong and it doesn't mean that all are saved including Satan and the fallen angels, then what does that do to the rest of your argument? Honestly?

Ain't my argument..it's the Bible's. Honestly!

I'm not entirely sure what point you feel I was being deceptive about, but I am not a deceptive person, so if you FIND me deceptive then you are deceived. I understand you haven't said or agreed with everything that every Universalist has said on here, but many of my statements are directed at what Universalism as a whole believes. If I have misstated what Universalism teaches then please tell me how. I have also read and studied their literature as I have many other false teaching groups such as JW's, Mormons, etc....

You continually misrepresent everything about us...and now you lump us in with false teaching groups...all because we don't agree with your view of HELL, Kevin. You suggest that messing with your precious eternal Hell we negate the entire Gospel. That is being deceptive...and I'm being kind in using those words.

What that Universalism is garbage and is a way that seems right to man, but will lead souls to death? That is what I believe about it, and it is my opinion based upon what the Scriptures say. If you give a person a false hope that there is no eternal punishment or even that he faces no literal fire, then you give the deceptiveness of sin an even more powerful hold on that person because they won't believe they have to repent and get saved and can therefore do whatever they like in this life. I don't know why it is so difficult for you to see this or admit it. I see people all the time that make excuses for their sin as it is because they don't want to give it up. Even when presented with the fact that they will spend eternity apart from God if they don't repent, they still won't give up their sin. Universalism gives people false hope. And this is not just my opinion, I have heard many people on this site say the same thing to you and Red and others over and over again.

How fair is that, Kevin?

Think about it. The doctrine of eternal torment has alienated far more people than you seem to dare think about. I brought this up in the Battle Royal...and, I think far more people would be repentant, accepting the salvation of God..if this DOCTRINE of eternal torment never forcably overtook the beliefs of the early church through the Roman Church's belief system.

What GOOD has eternal torment done? How does it reveal God and His wisdom or glory? How does it reveal Who He is? How about His nature? What kind of God is He?

More people have REJECTED the gospel because of this doctrine than for ANY OTHER REASON!

No it's in the Bible, God's Word.

We've been over this. I don't know how to show you that aionios means "of the ages" and also is undefined in duration, but speaks of quality. Even if it is viewed as eternal it still isn't a quanity, but a QUALITY and denotes a SOURCE, not a duration as though it means lasting forever but as coming FROM eternity. I've tried and tried, but you are very resistant to this and want to fight me on it...so I see no fruit in attempting again to convince you about this until such time that you are willing to consider it.

Pray about it...



I won't respond to the rest of your post because I really am trying to be a friend to you and, well, I don't want to jeopardize that any further.

 

[Redfin]

Why would it be a good thing to avoid experiencing hell if it is not a literal fire and is in fact being inside God Himself?

In other words Redfin, if it isn't literal fire then why would it be necessary to help people avoid it?

I sincerely feel such questions are beneath you, Kevin, but I'll address them anyway.

First of all, you may have noticed that I have stayed out of the literal/non-literal debate. Why? Because it makes no difference to me. Hell is what it is or will be what it will be, regardless of whether one believes it is literal fire or not. What we do know, from the testimony of the Scriptures, is that it will be horrible beyond our comprehension.

Therefore, neither God nor I want anyone to have to experience even a moment of it, much less an ongoing or unending duration of it.

Because I do in fact respect you, I also sincerely believe that in your heart you feel the same way, and that therefore your questions were merely rhetorical, made in the thick of this debate.

Peace.

 

[logos_x]

Why would it be a good thing to avoid experiencing hell if it is not a literal fire and is in fact being inside God Himself?

Ummm, Kevin, punishment, in general, is something most want to avoid. Making punishment as severe as you want it to be, and then with it just being punishment with no purpose other than cause pain forever is overkill. Why would God WANT to have people tormented forever without any hope whatsoever to be reconciled to Him?

Punishment need not be eternal without hope at all...in fact, what do we call punishing behavior that just torments endlessly and never accomplishes anything at all for the one being punished?

Clearly, we hold such individuals that do such things with contempt. They are called abusers...and we love to kill them for doing such things.

God, quite simply, is not like that. And that is the problem with the doctrine of eternal torment. It has God engaging in the very kind of behavior that He would send many to Hell for in the first place. God ends up causing more pain in 30 seconds than anyone could comprehend in sending them there, and only to cause pain...and extends that thoughout all future eternity. The Devil himself couldn't dream of doing such a thing because only God would have the ability to do it.

Augustine was asked about the flames being literal and lasting for all eternity and how it could be that this could be true and those being incarcerated in such a place could continue to live and remain conscious. His reply was that God has the ability to perform miracles and employes this ability to keep people alive and conscious in the flames.

I don't know Kevin, but it seems to me that this is a construction of a very dark mind. I can imagine who that might be. Can you?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Why would it be a good thing to avoid experiencing hell if it is not a literal fire and is in fact being inside God Himself?

It is literally the fire of God, God's fire, purifying, cleansing, purging.

It is good to avoid in the same way its good to avoid open heart surgery, or a root canal,
or withdrawl symptoms. Painful but necessary steps towards healing, but better
avoided if possible.

 

[Ecumenicist]

God is responsible for what the Lake of Fire is. He made it. But He is not responsible for one soul or fallen angel that goes there. That is chosen by the individual. God makes Himself known to all people and they can either choose Him or reject Him. God hopes and desires they will make the right choice. If they do not they have nobody to blame but themselves.
.

And who "casts" them into the lake of fire? That's an argument you never addressed.

I believe that God casts them, forcefully, into the lake of fire, because that's what
Scripture says.

You seem to be indicating that they walk willingly into the lake of fire, without any outward
force applied.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Admit it Kevin, you believe that Scripture says that God will forcefully throw living, sentient beings,
including people, into everlasting torment of literal fire, and the smoke of their torment will rise into
His presence for eternity. Some of these people will probably be people you know and love,
perhaps your own children or grandchildren, but you'r willing to accept God's Will in this matter.

And God doesn't just do this to some people, God does this to most people, for many are called but
few are chosen, and narrow is the path. Even among those who accept Christ, and cast
out Demons in His Holy Name, even among those, there are individuals to whom Jesus will say
"I never knew you."

Your a nice enough person that you would not do this to another human being yourself, but
you believe, and preach, that God does this, willingly, knowingly, and purposefully, possibly to the
majority of all humans ever born.

To argue anything less, like "sinners walk willingly into the flames," misrepresents what Scripture
says.

 

[Aimiel]

It is literally the fire of God, God's fire, purifying, cleansing, purging.

It is good to avoid in the same way its good to avoid open heart surgery, or a root canal,
or withdrawl symptoms. Painful but necessary steps towards healing, but better
avoided if possible.

Hell is to be avoided because there is no escape, but God's Presence is Fire, and It is to be desired above all else. It is The Most Important Thing there is. It is Holy. He doesn't have anything evil in His Hand to give to anyone. He desires only good. He longs to give us the desires of our heart. Not only our desires, though, He longs to give us He Desires, so that we desire right things. It is not a good thing to avoid God. No one is promised tomorrow, except the very elect.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Hell is to be avoided because there is no escape, but God's Presence is Fire, and It is to be desired above all else. It is The Most Important Thing there is. It is Holy. He doesn't have anything evil in His Hand to give to anyone. He desires only good. He longs to give us the desires of our heart. Not only our desires, though, He longs to give us He Desires, so that we desire right things. It is not a good thing to avoid God. No one is promised tomorrow, except the very elect.

Absolutely, but for unrepentant sinners, there is nothing more terrifying than the
fire of God's Presence.

 

[Aimiel]

Absolutely, but for unrepentant sinners, there is nothing more terrifying than the fire of God's Presence.

Wrong. That is exactly what they need, but don't ever know, because of their denial of His Existence. Hell has no redeeming qualities, such as you ascribe to it via your imaginary god. God is our Savior, not hell. We don't need any other savior, because God is The One and Only Savior, and His Name isn't Satan. You need to buy a clue.