BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

God was the Pillar of Fire in the desert. Do you deny that?

Sure He was a pillar of fire to the israelites in the desert. This hardly proves that God is the Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels and the final resting place of judgment for the wicked.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Apologists, including CS Lewis, commonly claim that Hell is Grace for those who
cannot bear the presence of God's Holiness...

Would not TRUE GRACE and TRUE TORMENT be called together, reconciled, in the
presence of the ALMIGHTY LIVING GOD? Can anyone deny this?

Can anyone deny God's POWER to TRANSFORM TORMENT into GRACE? Are there no
witnesses to this power? I am one, I can be counted as one. Is not GOD ETERNAL?

It is not EVIL that is eternal, it is God's Grace. Were evil eternal, it would indeed suffer
eternal torment in the presence of God's Grace. But only God is Eternal, thanx be to God.

Amen.

 

[PKevman]

I would still like to know if Logos and Red agree with you. Logos and Red, is Dave Miller correct in saying that God is the Lake of Fire?

 

[Ecumenicist]

I think it is so ridiculous that I don't know if it is worth spending time. I can't believe people actually believe that God is the Lake of Fire. Sure I have read about it and heard it, but I still cannot believe that people's dogmatic refusal to admit the unBiblical aspects of their doctrine leads them to make ridiculous applications such as this.

But OK. I will respond.

Did God create Himself Dave Miller? Did God create Himself for the punishment of the devil and his angels?

No, my friend, God is not Created but Eternal, Eternal to the reconcilliation of all things
unto God's Self.

 

[PKevman]

Apologists, including CS Lewis, commonly claim that Hell is Grace for those who
cannot bear the presence of God's Holiness...

Would not TRUE GRACE and TRUE TORMENT be called together, reconciled, in the
presence of the ALMIGHTY LIVING GOD? Can anyone deny this?

Can anyone deny God's POWER to TRANSFORM TORMENT into GRACE? Are there no
witnesses to this power? I am one, I can be counted as one. Is not GOD ETERNAL?

It is not EVIL that is eternal, it is God's Grace. Were evil eternal, it would indeed suffer
eternal torment in the presence of God's Grace. But only God is Eternal, thanx be to God.

Amen.

Lewis would have hardly agreed with the ridiculous theological position that God is the Lake of Fire Dave.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I would still like to know if Logos and Red agree with you. Logos and Red, is Dave Miller correct in saying that God is the Lake of Fire?

Radical it sounds, radical it is. Jesus was a radical, after all. "Love your enemies," who
ever heard of such tripe? Jesus was Radical in order to reveal the TRUTH.

Radical, Unconditional LOVE. This is Jesus. This is Christ. This is GOD.

Prince of PEACE. GOD WITH US.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Sure He was a pillar of fire to the israelites in the desert. This hardly proves that God is the Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels and the final resting place of judgment for the wicked.

THE TRUTH RINGS FROM YOUR OWN WORDS! WHO BUT GOD IS THE FINAL
RESTING PLACE FOR ALL JUDGEMENT AND JUSTICE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS???

 

[PKevman]

No, my friend, God is not Created but Eternal, Eternal to the reconcilliation of all things
unto God's Self.

Dave you didn't answer the question. You dodged. Again. Did God create Himself?
You said God is the Lake of Fire. The Bible says that God created the fires of torment for the devil and his angels, and that those who die apart from Christ go there.

Now you are asserting that God is the Lake of Fire, so everyone will be in God since wicked people, Satan, and the Fallen angels are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Did God create Himself for the punishment of the devil and his angels Dave?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave you didn't answer the question. You dodged. Again. Did God create Himself?
You said God is the Lake of Fire. The Bible says that God created the fires of torment for the devil and his angels, and that those who die apart from Christ go there.

Now you are asserting that God is the Lake of Fire, so everyone will be in God since wicked people, Satan, and the Fallen angels are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Did God create Himself for the punishment of the devil and his angels Dave?

Are you not talking about MATT 25:41? IS "God's place prepared" the same
as "God's Created?" I think not. We are God's Creation. Even Satan is God's Creation.
God's PREPARED PLACE is GOD'S PRESENCE, which is ETERNAL.

I have answered your questions, PK. Have you answered mine?

 

[PKevman]

What is there to answer? What is your question Dave?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Red77 - Please respond to post #820. Sorry, I totally screwed up the formating but the question is there!

Logos_x - Please respond to post 858

Blessings to you both!

 

[PKevman]

Are you not talking about MATT 25:41? IS "God's place prepared" the same
as "God's Created?" I think not. We are God's Creation. Even Satan is God's Creation.
God's PREPARED PLACE is GOD'S PRESENCE, which is ETERNAL.

I have answered your questions, PK. Have you answered mine?

I will let God answer from His Word:

In 2 Thess. 1:3-9 Paul says:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

In order to get a good perspective, I will quote this verse from several translations:

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(NASB) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(CEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

(TEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

(RSV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(GodsWord) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power."

(Holman NT) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength,

Dave Miller. The Bible says your doctrine of God being the Lake of Fire is false teaching.
I do not care what else you have to say on this matter it is false teaching clearly refuted in Scripture. You can make whatever arguments you like, and they will fall on deaf ears because I listen to the Word of God over people and the Word of God is plain! The punishment of the wicked happens in the Lake of Fire which is AWAY from the presence of God, not IN HIM!

Stephen (Logos) I hope with all my heart that you don't believe this drivel........

 

[Stripe]

Red, you have about three chances left. When it says "ALL THINGS" it is subject to the main point raised in the passage, namely "IN CHRIST". God's word puts the two together, "ALL THINGS IN CHRIST", you want to separate them and ignore half.

 

[PKevman]

Red, you have about three chances left. When it says "ALL THINGS" it is subject to the main point raised in the passage, namely "IN CHRIST". God's word puts the two together, "ALL THINGS IN CHRIST", you want to separate them and ignore half.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to stipe again.

 

[logos_x]

Death is not the defete of grace, death marks the end of the offer of grace.

Where did the RESURRECTION GO?

For it is appointed once for men to die then, judgement.

Yep.

There is no more grace when you go to face judgement.

Why not?

If you stand before Jesus clothed in grace then you will be judged righteous.

Yep

If you stand before Jesus without the cloke of grace then you will be judged unrighteous and depart from Jesus to the lake of fire. Straight out of Mathew and spoken by Jesus Himself.

Yep

Your premis that grace is still available after death is not supported by scripture.

Yes it is! And it has been pointed out over and over and over again.

(Remember, once to die, then judgement) [ Yes, it gives people hope, but it is a false hope. You have never faced the question of what if I'm wrong. If you are wrong then all the people who thought they had hope after they die discover they are utterly hopeless. There is no second chance for them. If eternal torment is wrong, then people who thought there was no hope find hope. In either case, I want people to know Jesus now, in this life. Becase if you do, then a happy ending is guranteed.

Well...yes, of course...we all want people to know Jesus now. No one is disagreeing with that here.

As far as your question, I don't believe people respond because of Hell in the first place...it is the goodness of God that brings repentance. I think more people would respond to the Gospel if that is shown to be true that God really has everyones salvation in view.

Lets take this further.

If what you say is true...then you have close friends, relatives, acquaintences and family that are in torment RIGHT NOW...and there is nothing you can do, and nothing you can say to change that.

That reminds me of another quote:

One of the things that most pains and torments these Japanese is that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives; and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope….and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. The grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow….I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing many so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.-- St. Francis Xavier, a Roman Catholic missionary to Japan, 1552​

Now...if you are wrong the implications are staggering. You are attributing to God something He never set His mind to do. I've provided the reasons why I think that is the case that this is what has in fact happened.

Eternal hell does not explain why people go to hell and you still have not answered this question. If Jesus was seccessfull on the cross and forgave all sin, why do people still go to hell? Or. If you stand before Jesus with no stain of sin upon you, why do people still go to hell?

I can see no reason at all except perhaps for some kind of correctional and remedial purpose.

That is my answer.

 

[logos_x]

I will let God answer from His Word:

In 2 Thess. 1:3-9 Paul says:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

In order to get a good perspective, I will quote this verse from several translations:

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(NASB) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(CEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

(TEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

(RSV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(GodsWord) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power."

(Holman NT) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength,

Dave Miller. The Bible says your doctrine of God being the Lake of Fire is false teaching.
I do not care what else you have to say on this matter it is false teaching clearly refuted in Scripture. You can make whatever arguments you like, and they will fall on deaf ears because I listen to the Word of God over people and the Word of God is plain! The punishment of the wicked happens in the Lake of Fire which is AWAY from the presence of God, not IN HIM!

Stephen (Logos) I hope with all my heart that you don't believe this drivel........

The first issue is that of "eternal destruction".
As an answer fo that point I will show what it says in Word Studies in the New Testament by Marvin R. Vincent:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/aionole.htm

The second point is the one you want to make about being AWAY from the Lord's presence...because on this we have a bit of a contradiction from another verse that you would use as "proof" of an eternal condition that cannot change after death...

he shall drink the wine of God's anger which stands ready, undiluted, in the cup of His fury, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10-11)​

So...which is it Kevin? IS it in the presence of the Holy angels and the Lamb "forever and ever"....or away from the Lord's presence "forever and ever"?

Maybe things aren't quite as plain in your view as you wish they were.... :think:

 

[logos_x]

Be careful not to refuse to listen to Him who is speaking to you. For if they of old did not escape unpunished when they refused to listen to him who spoke on earth, much less shall we escape who turn a deaf ear to Him who now speaks from Heaven. His voice then shook the earth, but now we have His promise, "YET AGAIN I WILL, ONCE FOR ALL, CAUSE NOT ONLY THE EARTH TO TREMBLE, BUT HEAVEN ALSO." Here the words "Yet again, once for all" denote the removal of the things which can be shaken--created things--in order that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving, as we now do, a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us cherish thankfulness so that we may ever offer to God an acceptable service, with godly reverence and awe. For our God is also a consuming fire.
(Heb 12:25-29)​

Fire is attibuted to God in many ways in scripture, as well as with the Holy Spirit...and as an agency of judgement, transformation and service.

The varying ways fire is used in scripture are not to be ignored.

But...I think to really get the point across without any question...there is the added element of "brimstone" or "sulfer"....Theion in the Greek...

theion
Thayer Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing)​

G2304 is:

theios
Thayer Definition:
1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
2a) of Christ
2b) Holy Spirit
2c) the Father
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2316​

G2316 is:

θεός
theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity​

Theos is the same root from which we get "theology".

Theion was used in ancient times to cleanse and purify...it was even used to cleanse instruments of worship in the Temple.

So...Kevin, thinking of these things in terms of transformation, cleansing, and healing rather than merely punitive isn't all that outlandish, now, is it?

 

[PKevman]

Be careful not to refuse to listen to Him who is speaking to you. For if they of old did not escape unpunished when they refused to listen to him who spoke on earth, much less shall we escape who turn a deaf ear to Him who now speaks from Heaven. His voice then shook the earth, but now we have His promise, "YET AGAIN I WILL, ONCE FOR ALL, CAUSE NOT ONLY THE EARTH TO TREMBLE, BUT HEAVEN ALSO." Here the words "Yet again, once for all" denote the removal of the things which can be shaken--created things--in order that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving, as we now do, a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us cherish thankfulness so that we may ever offer to God an acceptable service, with godly reverence and awe. For our God is also a consuming fire.
(Heb 12:25-29)​

Fire is attibuted to God in many ways in scripture, as well as with the Holy Spirit...and as an agency of judgement, transformation and service.

The varying ways fire is used in scripture are not to be ignored.

But...I think to really get the point across without any question...there is the added element of "brimstone" or "sulfer"....Theion in the Greek...

theion
Thayer Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing)​

G2304 is:

theios
Thayer Definition:
1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
2a) of Christ
2b) Holy Spirit
2c) the Father
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2316​

G2316 is:

θεός
theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity​

Theos is the same root from which we get "theology".

Theion was used in ancient times to cleanse and purify...it was even used to cleanse instruments of worship in the Temple.

So...Kevin, thinking of these things in terms of transformation, cleansing, and healing rather than merely punitive isn't all that outlandish, now, is it?

So Stephen, simply put do you agree with Dave Miller that God is the Lake of Fire?

It is a yes or no question.

God bless.

 

[red77]

Please don't make me regret replying to you again.

A Good Servant of Jesus Christ

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ...He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son = God, who is the Savior of all men

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already = especially of those who believe

Especially: To an extent or degree deserving of special emphasis; particularly.

What makes those who believe in Christ worthy to be pointed out by Paul for special emphasis about salvation? Because those who believe on Christ are those who are saved. Is Christ the Savior of those who do not believe? YES! Are they saved? NO! Why? "..if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." They do not accept or believe in Christ. Just like John says.

I know... I know... when they really learn the truth of the matter... etc etc...

Let me head you off here and save you the keystrokes.

Firstly, Christ give us a clue: "Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Secondly, Paul says we are without excuse. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..."

Ok, now we see once again that Jesus, John and Paul all agree. If you really loath the idea of hell, might I suggest that you stop comforting sinners in their sin and start telling folks about "Moses and the prophets" aka the Law, that they are condemend without Christ and share with them the joy of the work Christ has done for them.

Nineveh, thanks for replying

Ok, I may well be wasting my own 'keystrokes' but what the hey......
Firstly everyone will confess, its written that every knee will bow and every tongue confess - to the glory of God, is this right?
Secondly if condemnation is the state of one who doesnt believe then we were all condemned at one point until we had faith, the condemnation was not permanent - nor is it.....
And finally all you've really managed to do is to change 'especially' to 'only' albeit in an inventive way, Christ is basically only a potential saviour of all and only of believers if what you say is true - not especially....

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a literal story, something tells me you think it might be......

and yes, of course I loathe the idea of pointless unending torment, basically it comes down to two choices- do I believe that God who has decreed everything to the counsel of his will and can actually accomplish his will and desire - or do I listen to those who claim that God will not in fact be able to accomplish his own will for whatever reason that may be....? :think:

 

[red77]

There it is. Universalism explained. God is the lake of fire? At least Dave has the courage to speak up. I thought Stephen was hinting to this in the Battle Royale, but my question was never answered.

Logos&Red: Do you concur with Dave Miller's statement here? That God is the Lake of Fire?

This idea isnt uncommon at all, to be honest it makes a great deal of sense to me and certainly more than a literal lake which makes no sense at all, I think it could very well be a metaphor for God's all surrounding presence, after all isnt God described as 'an all consuming fire'? Does that mean that God is literally fire? I dont think so.......
and when you think that even what we describe as fire in this existence cleanses, purifies and does away with impurities then it makes even more sense to see the LOF as something thats restorative and not ultimately pointless suffering