BRXII Battle talk

[Stripe]

If anything is eternal, then surely what Christ did is eternal in it's accomplishments.

You haven't answered the question - what did Christ do on the cross? He defeated sin and death. Is sin and death eternal now? No. Do we need grace if there is no sin? No. Is grace eternal? No. Does it matter, does it convict God of a crime to say there is no grace at some point in the future? No. Does God's word suffer by implying that grace will cease? No. Is universalism justified under the assumption that grace will be available after people die? Only if you provide evidence of another point where God might reasonably consider removing grace.

When you try to correlate universalism and God's word with:
"the answer(s) .. are the same answers in both universal salvation and God's word. The difference is that in universal salvation, grace is still there, and in God's word it isn't."
you only open one door and that door leads to the rejection of universalism. God's word suffers not at all from God's future plans.

 

[Stripe]

why must it?

Grace only exists to redeem us from sin. If we hadn't sinned we wouldn't need grace. When we are perfectly restored and sin is banished we will never need grace again.

 

[logos_x]

You haven't answered the question - what did Christ do on the cross? He defeated sin and death. Is sin and death eternal now? No. Do we need grace if there is no sin? No. Is grace eternal? No. Does it matter, does it convict God of a crime to say there is no grace at some point in the future? No. Does God's word suffer by implying that grace will cease? No. Is universalism justified under the assumption that grace will be available after people die? Only if you provide evidence of another point where God might reasonably consider removing grace.

When you try to correlate universalism and God's word with:
"the answer(s) .. are the same answers in both universal salvation and God's word. The difference is that in universal salvation, grace is still there, and in God's word it isn't."
you only open one door and that door leads to the rejection of universalism. God's word suffers not at all from God's future plans.

You said it yourself earlier....

Originally Posted by stipe

Grace ends when sin ends. If people choose sin over grace then the only possible response is separation. Once separation has happened there is only one avenue for return, through faith in Christ.

There is nothing in the word of God that indicates that this becomes invalid. That is my point.

In the eternal torment model that isn't true. In it alone, Grace ends at death.
You can't have it both ways.

 

[PKevman]

BIZARRE? OF COURSE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE!

BIZARRE? OF COURSE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE!

Our dealings with the sin problem are as varied within the universal salvation model as it is within that of the eternal torment model. It's amazing to me that "hell" must be viewed as unending because grace ends at death under the eternal torment model, but in the universal salvation model grace does not end forever, sin does end...and that is viewed as if the gospel has been thown out by those that hold the eternal torment model.

Bizzare.

Hi Stephen,

As far as the rest of God's creation is concerned, sin does end at the final judgment. That is why those who are in the Lake of Fire never get out. Sin is judged once for all and for all eternity there will be no more sin. We do not believe that grace ends and sin continues, that is a wrong interpretation of our beliefs my friend.

We (those who are IN CHRIST) will live forever praising God BECAUSE of His grace and allowing us to live forever with Him, when we know that if our sin had been judged we would have suffered the same fate. But BECAUSE of the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the grace granted us our sins have been washed away. Unrepentant sinners do not have this hope because their sin has separated them from God.

 

[red77]

Your reasons for doing good things are inconsequential, though it is better to know why you are doing good than to not. The question was: when and where do we pay for the actions that are bad? This is the question you cannot answer and this is what you don't know about what you believe.

Just to do good often is enough in itself, it isnt inconsequential to the person on the receiving end of kindness, one thing that isnt in question is the amount of suffering that already exists in this world, faith differences aside - to show true charity to another should always be part of christianity, Jesus himself showed this whatever the eventual outcome of the world, to be honest I dont know how God will judge our actions - but then the only one who knows that is God, I cant presume to know how God sees each persons heart, so you're right, I cannot give you an absolute answer as to how God would act because I dont think that anyone would know exactly......., I have faith that God achieves his will or desire but I dont know the mind of God

Yes. It's an answer.

But i suspect not satisfactory, is that the case? Whatever our differences in the past I've found it refreshing to have this open dialogue with you so let me know and I will try to answer as best I can

 

[logos_x]

Hi Stephen,

As far as the rest of God's creation is concerned, sin does end at the final judgment. That is why those who are in the Lake of Fire never get out. Sin is judged once for all and for all eternity there will be no more sin. We do not believe that grace ends and sin continues, that is a wrong interpretation of our beliefs my friend.

We (those who are IN CHRIST) will live forever praising God BECAUSE of His grace and allowing us to live forever with Him, when we know that if our sin had been judged we would have suffered the same fate. But BECAUSE of the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the grace granted us our sins have been washed away. Unrepentant sinners do not have this hope because their sin has separated them from God.

I understand that. I also disagree with it. And I've explained why.

 

[Stripe]

That is my point. In God's word that isn't true. In it alone, Grace ends at death. You can't have it both ways.

I hold nothing both ways. Grace ends at death because sin ends at death.

 

[logos_x]

I hold nothing both ways. Grace ends at death because sin ends at death.

Ok.

Strange...that you would still find the need for an eternal Hell then.

 

[Stripe]

But i suspect not satisfactory, is that the case? Whatever our differences in the past I've found it refreshing to have this open dialogue with you so let me know and I will try to answer as best I can

Of course your misguided musings are not satisfactory. Your opinion of what God might do and should do are no way to lead a life submitted to God's word. Which do you think would benefit a non-believer more? The idea that he NEEDS Christ RIGHT NOW for two very good reasons or the idea that, according to some peoples feelings and discomfort with certain parts of God's word, they don't really need Christ just yet. Which do you consider the more accurate summation of reality?

 

[Stripe]

Ok. Strange...that you would still find the need for an eternal Hell then.

People not under grace gotta go somewhere....

 

[PKevman]

- to show true charity to another should always be part of christianity, Jesus himself showed this whatever the eventual outcome of the world,

Amen that is true! But those acts of charity can never save our souls or earn us a right standing with God.

to be honest I dont know how God will judge our actions - but then the only one who knows that is God,

Red has God communicated to us through the Bible or not? We CAN know many things about God because He has communicated to us plainly through His Word.

I cant presume to know how God sees each persons heart, so you're right, I cannot give you an absolute answer as to how God would act because I dont think that anyone would know exactly.......,

It sure would be nice if God told us what we needed to know like in a book or something that He would supervise the handing down of and that He Himself would inspire.....oh wait.....HE DID! Hey Red, check it out, He gave us the Bible!!! And He speaks very plainly on these subjects. The problem is that you deny whole portions of God's Word that disagree with your theology, and you only accept the verses that you think AGREE with your theology.

I have faith that God achieves his will or desire but I dont know the mind of God

I have faith that God has revealed Himself to mankind through His Word, the Bible. We CAN in FACT know the mind of God through the Word of God. Do you agree with this Red? Has God in fact communicated His mind through the Bible?

 

[red77]

Of course your misguided musings are not satisfactory. Your opinion of what God might do and should do are no way to lead a life submitted to God's word. Which do you think would benefit a non-believer more? The idea that he NEEDS Christ RIGHT NOW for two very good reasons or the idea that, according to some peoples feelings and discomfort with certain parts of God's word, they don't really need Christ just yet. Which do you consider the more accurate summation of reality?

Let me ask you something back Stipe, do you think God can manage to accomplish his own will? That he could if he wanted reconcile his whole creation unto himself? I dont believe that God 'should' do anything, and universal salvation is 'not' based on feelings, I'm not one to ascribe to something that purely brings "false comfort" as is popular terminology on here at times, but i'm realistic, I would love for everyone to know the truth right now but I know that isnt the case and many many people will die without believing, I think if you're honest you would agree with that right?
Do you know what God is going to do and how he will judge each individual person, for sure and in black and white?

 

[Stripe]

Let me ask you something back Stipe, do you think God can manage to accomplish his own will? That he could if he wanted reconcile his whole creation unto himself?

And let me ask you something back. I will answer first though. stipeA1: Sure he could. He could snap his fingers and we could all go to heaven and never have a bad thought ever again. stipeQ1: Why doesn't he do this Red?

Do you know what God is going to do and how he will judge each individual person, for sure and in black and white?

stipeA2: Black - Those who reject Jesus.
White - Those who accept Jesus.

stipeQ2: Do you still not know how God will judge?

 

[red77]

Amen that is true! But those acts of charity can never save our souls or earn us a right standing with God.

Red has God communicated to us through the Bible or not? We CAN know many things about God because He has communicated to us plainly through His Word.

True enough, I find it plain that God restores his entire creation...

It sure would be nice if God told us what we needed to know like in a book or something that He would supervise the handing down of and that He Himself would inspire.....oh wait.....HE DID! Hey Red, check it out, He gave us the Bible!!! And He speaks very plainly on these subjects. The problem is that you deny whole portions of God's Word that disagree with your theology, and you only accept the verses that you think AGREE with your theology.

Sarcasm is beneath you pastor! Firstly I think from a starting point in my...."theology" that God can accomplish what he wills - or even desires....., and I find it very plain that God declares he works things out after the counsel of his will, that he will be all in all etc etc etc....
You on the other hand start out with the theology that God CANNOT accomplish what he wills - be it mans "free will" or whatever - and have to ignore what God wishes and declares in his word to only use verses that fit in with your own "theology".....
Which is the more positive out of the two? :think:

I have faith that God has revealed Himself to mankind through His Word, the Bible. We CAN in FACT know the mind of God through the Word of God. Do you agree with this Red? Has God in fact communicated His mind through the Bible?

Do you think you know the entire mind of God pastor? are his ways not higher than ours? I know enough to believe that God has a wonderful divine plan that wont be offset by whatever we disagree about - through his word - but neither you nor I or anyone else can truly know the mind of God at this point except God himself......

 

[red77]

And let me ask you something back. I will answer first though. stipeA1: Sure he could. He could snap his fingers and we could all go to heaven and never have a bad thought ever again. stipeQ1: Why doesn't he do this Red?

Beacuse it is God's will that things work the way he plans them, how else would you expect me to answer? Its like asking me why God created the world in the first place, because it was his will to do so

stipeA2: Black - Those who reject Jesus.
White - Those who accept Jesus.

would you not rejoice to think that everyone would accept Jesus in the end? Would it make any difference to your own salvation that nobody would be suffering abominably in a God forsaken place? Please answer me on this, would you be glad that God could in fact restore his whole creation to himself and that noone suffered for eternity?

stipeQ2: Do you still not know how God will judge?

Yes - righteously

 

[red77]

Hi Stephen,

As far as the rest of God's creation is concerned, sin does end at the final judgment. That is why those who are in the Lake of Fire never get out. Sin is judged once for all and for all eternity there will be no more sin. We do not believe that grace ends and sin continues, that is a wrong interpretation of our beliefs my friend.

We (those who are IN CHRIST) will live forever praising God BECAUSE of His grace and allowing us to live forever with Him, when we know that if our sin had been judged we would have suffered the same fate. But BECAUSE of the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the grace granted us our sins have been washed away. Unrepentant sinners do not have this hope because their sin has separated them from God.

In which case their sin is with them in the LOF meaning that sin has not been done away after all, no wonder it is so difficult for you to accept that God can be "all in all" because with ET it just wont allow it.......

 

[red77]

Stipe: Would you please explain this verse - and how ET still has a place in God's will....:
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being pedestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:9-12)

 

[CabinetMaker]

I don't view it as sidestepping.

Look...your premise is that sin has been taken away, so why do people still go to hell.
The answer of eternal torment is completely unsatisfactory, because it would have people burning...whether literally or metaphorically...forever in spite of the grace offered because they failed to recieve it before they die. The grace is no longer offered because of death.
That makes death victorious over God's grace.

My premise says that the grace is still offered even though we die....and that at least gives the hope that people are saved from hell even if they arrive there before recieving it.

If you are trying to say that eternal torment explains why people go to Hell....well, good luck with that. The explanation as to why they go to hell is the same in both the eternal torment model and the universal salvation model.

Death is not the defete of grace, death marks the end of the offer of grace. For it is appointed once for men to die then, judgement. There is no more grace when you go to face judgement. If you stand before Jesus clothed in grace then you will be judged righteous. If you stand before Jesus without the cloke of grace then you will be judged unrighteous and depart from Jesus to the lake of fire. Straight out of Mathew and spoken by Jesus Himself.

Your premis that grace is still available after death is not supported by scripture. (Remember, once to die, then judgement) Yes, it gives people hope, but it is a false hope. You have never faced the question of what if I'm wrong. If you are wrong then all the people who thought they had hope after they die discover they are utterly hopeless. There is no second chance for them. If eternal torment is wrong, then people who thought there was no hope find hope. In either case, I want people to know Jesus now, in this life. Becase if you do, then a happy ending is guranteed.

Eternal hell does not explain why people go to hell and you still have not answered this question. If Jesus was seccessfull on the cross and forgave all sin, why do people still go to hell? Or. If you stand before Jesus with no stain of sin upon you, why do people still go to hell?

 

[Nineveh]

All will be judged.

Rev 20

Those who already have Christ's righteousness will go to heaven.

John 3

Those who do not will be punished by hell until they turn to Christ.

Redfin 6?

 

[Stripe]

Beacuse it is God's will that things work the way he plans them, how else would you expect me to answer? Its like asking me why God created the world in the first place, because it was his will to do so

You're not being honest. If you consider God capable of doing such a thing, why does he leave us here to rot? Does he hate us? Why are we made to suffer through 84 years of life on Earth when it is in his power to summon us directly to paradise. This should be very easy to answer Red. stipeQ1: Why doesn't God summon us directly to heaven?

would you not rejoice to think that everyone would accept Jesus in the end? Would it make any difference to your own salvation that nobody would be suffering abominably in a God forsaken place? Please answer me on this, would you be glad that God could in fact restore his whole creation to himself and that noone suffered for eternity?

I will rejoice over one person saved. If God chose to summon us all directly to heaven I'd have no choice but to be happy about it.

Yes - righteously

So those found righteous go to heaven, where do those not found righteous go?