BRXII Battle talk

[Kimberlyann]

Is that all it means? To treat others as we want to be treated and show compassion to those who suffer?

No...that's not it. Here is another example of love. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

How did Jesus show His love to His deciples? Look at the Gospels for the descriptions of the last supper.

Are you talking about the foot washing? Please explain.

 

[CabinetMaker]

No...that's not it. Here is another example of love. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Are you talking about the foot washing? Please explain.

John 15:12
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

Love each other as I have loved you. How did Jesus show His love to His deciples? He came as a servent. That is what He was trying to teach them when He washed their feet From John 13: 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

The example He set was as a servant. He put the needs of His church ahead of His own needs. He cared for His deciples before He cared for Himself. We are to care for each other before we care for ourselves. That is not to say we are to neglect ourseves because Jesus never neglected His own needs. That is why He would retreat in prayer after ministering. He needed time with His father.

Compasion is good and it is part of caring for others. But so is thinking of you neighbors needs. Say you want a new car and just down the street is a single mother struggeling to make ends meet. Could you maybe get a two year old car and give the difference to the mother so that she could care for her cildren a little easier? Could you watch her children from time to time with no strings attached?

You are at the store and the person is a little short of money. This happened to me the other day and I gave the person in front of me a couple of bucks so she could buy her lunch. Both she and the lady behind the register were so surprised. When asked why, just tell them Jesus loves them. It was a wonderful moment.

One night I was at a different store and there was a young couple parked in front of me. They were driving an old beat up truck with new paper plates. It was raining and the young man had to get out and use his knife to short the starting coil to get the thing to start. He was angery. I had this sudden flash that the right thing to do was take them across the street to the auto part store and buy them a new starter. I didn't do it because I was meeting my wife at work. I cannot tell you how much I regret not listening to the holy spirit that night. My wife was safe and would have been safe no matter how late I was. I missed an opportunity to witness to that couple and an opportunity to demonstraight what a Christian should be to my daughters. I learned much about listening to God and I hope never to make that mistake again. But I stil regret not loving that young couple as God led me to do.

There are a thousand different ways we can help each other every day. It will require some sacrifce from us but that is what love is: to put anothers needs ahead of your own.

 

[red77]

Don't you get it? It's a very low thing to copy somebody else's work and pretend it's your own. Not to mention against TOL rules. Not only did a participant of a TOL Battle Royale stoop to this, but now others who are trying to support him and defend what he believes have done this.

All participants of TOL Battle Royales have been highly regarded, in my opinion, because of their willingness to take the time to put into it what they do, no matter which opponent I'm pulling for or who I feel ends up winning the debate.

No matter who is battling what, TOL doesn't take their efforts lightly. But this is kind of a first. I think logos_x did a pretty shameful thing and I think it's very sad that some are so desperate to defend what he believes, they won't even take the time to rebuke him.

If I was like minded with a BR opponent who was defending a strong belief of mine and he ended up doing something like this, I would be the first in line to tell him that no matter what good actually DID come from him what he did was shameful and kind of slap in the face to others who have given so much effort to these battles.

I think thats pretty unfair, I believe that Logos X said it was unintentinonal and has apologised as much as anyone could for their oversight - several times he's admitted that any damage that was caused was soley his fault, what would be the point of rebuking someone who's continuously held their hands up already?

 

[red77]

It isn't compassionate to allow a rapist to live in the same house as his victim is it?

A good father loves all his children. But out of love He would never let one hurt the other one for an eternity. God is also a gentleman, He doesn't force people to be with Him if they do not wish to be.

which no universalist believes anyway which you must be aware of by now, unless you think that someone who has come to a knowledge of the truth (as God wills) would somehow want to live apart from God then i find that baffling, especially since the only other option according to orthodox doctrine is to be thrown into a physical lake of burning fire......forcibly at that.....

 

[Kimberlyann]

John 15:12
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

Love each other as I have loved you. How did Jesus show His love to His deciples? He came as a servent. That is what He was trying to teach them when He washed their feet From John 13: 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

The example He set was as a servant. He put the needs of His church ahead of His own needs. He cared for His deciples before He cared for Himself. We are to care for each other before we care for ourselves. That is not to say we are to neglect ourseves because Jesus never neglected His own needs. That is why He would retreat in prayer after ministering. He needed time with His father.

Compasion is good and it is part of caring for others. But so is thinking of you neighbors needs. Say you want a new car and just down the street is a single mother struggeling to make ends meet. Could you maybe get a two year old car and give the difference to the mother so that she could care for her cildren a little easier? Could you watch her children from time to time with no strings attached?

You are at the store and the person is a little short of money. This happened to me the other day and I gave the person in front of me a couple of bucks so she could buy her lunch. Both she and the lady behind the register were so surprised. When asked why, just tell them Jesus loves them. It was a wonderful moment.

One night I was at a different store and there was a young couple parked in front of me. They were driving an old beat up truck with new paper plates. It was raining and the young man had to get out and use his knife to short the starting coil to get the thing to start. He was angery. I had this sudden flash that the right thing to do was take them across the street to the auto part store and buy them a new starter. I didn't do it because I was meeting my wife at work. I cannot tell you how much I regret not listening to the holy spirit that night. My wife was safe and would have been safe no matter how late I was. I missed an opportunity to witness to that couple and an opportunity to demonstraight what a Christian should be to my daughters. I learned much about listening to God and I hope never to make that mistake again. But I stil regret not loving that young couple as God led me to do.

There are a thousand different ways we can help each other every day. It will require some sacrifce from us but that is what love is: to put anothers needs ahead of your own.

Beautiful post.....very good examples of how to love our neighbors. :thumb:

If we want to know how to love our neighbor, I think the life of Mother Teresa is a perfect example. Her reward will be great in Heaven, of that I have no doubt.

 

[red77]

Could you give a verse to that?

off the top of my head and without a Bible to hand at this minute no, you have heard this though right?

I've never said that. "For God so loved the world..."

you dont believe that God is the saviour of all men though, you cant to believe in ET

"...that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

then we're all condemned at some point in our lives, we dont believe from birth.....

Rather, it's a simple analogy you choose not to see. Nothing new from you here.

Wrong: its flawed and here's why, have you ever been so full that the thought of another mouthful of food - no matter how delicious you know it to be would actually make you feel sick? Or where you're thoroughly enjoying a meal but your stomach says its had enough and you have to stop even though you wish you could eat on? Its not the food thats at fault because you dont want it - and a few hours later you'd be more than willing to eat the 'muffins' on offer.........unless they'd suddenly been withdrawn and instead of offering you food the 'psycho chef' throws you in a deep fat fryer much like what you believe God will do to those who havent 'ate on time'......
the analogy does not work, its obvious, you cant call God a psycho for not tormenting people with torturous fire and a gentlemen for doing so, its ridiculous, I hope that thats simple enough for you to choose to see....

PK totally destroyed this argument more than once in the BR. I'm sure you missed it though, it was one of his more obvious points.

i saw the whole BR, nothing was destroyed....

Paul said we are without excuse. The Truth is plain, but some love themselves far more than God. I'm sorry you don't like that idea but it happens. It's documented in the Bible over and over, nothing new under the sun.

some love doctrines more also....

Until you take over an become God, He allows for freewill. Whether you want folks like Gerald to love God or not really doesn't mean a hill of beans to Gerald. God gave Gerald his own freewill despite you. You can try to persuade Gerald, but you can't force Gerald and you certainly can't force God to force Gerald.

It's amazing so many who claim to serve God try to justify kidnapping and make like it's a perfectly acceptable form of Love. Especially after knowing God said such a thing is punishable by death. I wonder how many of you kidnapped your spouse and then pretended when they were clawing their way out it really meant they loved you.

universalists dont believe God 'kidnaps' anyone anyway but rather everyone will have a knowledge of the truth and willingly want to be with God - so this is all moot

John and Paul are saying the same thing. Why do you insist it *could be* something else? They are in agreement, it appears the only way you can make your claim is to have them disagree. Sad.

You still cant address the verse, its not 'me' who insists, its the words themselves,
"God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers"
At least attempt to explain how this does not mean that all men are not in fact saved by God but only believers......because this is what you believe
If this verse meant that the word especially wouldnt be in there, why do you insist on ignoring it pLease at least attempt to explain how this verse doesnt mean what it says.....

 

[Kimberlyann]

I'm just reminding everyone to vote in the poll.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34311

 

[CabinetMaker]

off the top of my head and without a Bible to hand at this minute no, you have heard this though right?

Try
www.biblegateway.com
www.blueletterbible.com

They are searchable and have many translations, including Youngs Literal.

You are without excuses now for you know the truth.

 

[logos_x]

I think thats pretty unfair, I believe that Logos X said it was unintentinonal and has apologised as much as anyone could for their oversight - several times he's admitted that any damage that was caused was soley his fault, what would be the point of rebuking someone who's continuously held their hands up already?

It was unintentional, but I still am at fault and deserve everything that was said because of it. I really have no excuse...I was careless...it was stupid and I regret doing it, but it was a violartion of the rules...and even worse, it compromised my own integrity. I regret it...and when they called me on it when I first saw it I honestly didn't know what happened...I edited the links in, and apparently failed to save the links when I closed my editor. When I pasted it into TOL's editor later (hours later), I didn't notice they weren't there when I previewed it. Once you post in a Battle Royale, you have a limited time to edit your post...but I still didn't notice the oversight of the links not being there.

It was stupid...and they are right to point it all out. They are also right that Kevin did very little citing of outside resources compared to me, and my argument relyed on them heavily...but this was due to the nature of my argument. How could I make the case without producing the evidence?

They have a right to say everything they've said, and be angry over my not citing the outside scource. But..nobody is more angry at me than I am. This is one of the stupidest things I've ever done. But...it's because I thought I did something right...and didn't...and didn't make sure I did it right, and so people will think I did it on purpose.

I'm going to be kicking myself over this for a very long time. And there is no way to make it right or correct the darn thing. I even had second thoughts about posting this because it sounds like I'm making excuses. It was inexcusable. It's just one of those things that I have to take and learn from, and suffer the consequences for. And apologise for.

 

[Redfin]

God is also a gentleman, He doesn't force people to be with Him if they do not wish to be.

The answer to this is so simple.

He causes them to wish to be. (I bet a good song could be written about that...)

Some folks simply require more "causing" than others.

 

[Kimberlyann]

It was unintentional, but I still am at fault and deserve everything that was said because of it. I really have no excuse...I was careless...it was stupid and I regret doing it, but it was a violartion of the rules...and even worse, it compromised my own integrity. I regret it...and when they called me on it when I first saw it I honestly didn't know what happened...I edited the links in, and apparently failed to save the links when I closed my editor. When I pasted it into TOL's editor later (hours later), I didn't notice they weren't there when I previewed it. Once you post in a Battle Royale, you have a limited time to edit your post...but I still didn't notice the oversight of the links not being there.

It was stupid...and they are right to point it all out. They are also right that Kevin did very little citing of outside resources compared to me, and my argument relyed on them heavily...but this was due to the nature of my argument. How could I make the case without producing the evidence?

They have a right to say everything they've said, and be angry over my not citing the outside scource. But..nobody is more angry at me than I am. This is one of the stupidest things I've ever done. But...it's because I thought I did something right...and didn't...and didn't make sure I did it right, and so people will think I did it on purpose.

I'm going to be kicking myself over this for a very long time. And there is no way to make it right or correct the darn thing. I even had second thoughts about posting this because it sounds like I'm making excuses. It was inexcusable. It's just one of those things that I have to take and learn from, and suffer the consequences for. And apologise for.

I am sure it was unintentional and I don't doubt your integrity. Don't be so hard on yourself we are only human and we all make mistakes.

Take care and God bless you.

 

[logos_x]

I am sure it was unintentional and I don't doubt your integrity. Don't be so hard on yourself we are only human and we all make mistakes.

Take care and God bless you.

Thank you Kimberlyann.

I think that of all the people that agree with me theologically, you least deserve the "big fat jerk" perception, second in line there is Red77...IMHO. The rest of us really need to work on being more...conscientious...of TOL's rules and other people's feelings.

 

[logos_x]

Redfin does a good job, too...

 

[red77]

Try
www.biblegateway.com
www.blueletterbible.com

They are searchable and have many translations, including Youngs Literal.

You are without excuses now for you know the truth.

Thank you CM, helpful advice indeed and on this we are in agreement

 

[red77]

I am sure it was unintentional and I don't doubt your integrity. Don't be so hard on yourself we are only human and we all make mistakes.

Take care and God bless you.

I will second that, in all honesty i respect anyone who puts the time into a battle royale, noone should doubt your integrity or the argument you presented because of an unintentional oversight

 

[ChasClean]

No matter who is battling what, TOL doesn't take their efforts lightly. But this is kind of a first. I think logos_x did a pretty shameful thing and I think it's very sad that some are so desperate to defend what he believes, they won't even take the time to rebuke him.

Could this unforgiving attitude and beating a dead horse possibly be the fruit of believing an unforgiving eternal torment doctrine. Nah, that would be too obvious.

 

[logos_x]

Could this unforgiving attitude and beating a dead horse possibly be the fruit of believing an unforgiving eternal torment doctrine. Nah, that would be too obvious.

Still, if we pay attention to how we post, and how well it fits with the spirit of TOL and that it does abide by the rules...then what we post will be much better appreciated for what it says....wouldn't it?

 

[bigbang123]

I come upon a mountain road full of curves while driving in my Ferrari (I wish!!) with a posted speed limit of 45. I know their are laws against speeding and I know that there are cconsequences for breaking them. I have not seen a cop all day so I conclude that the cops do not enforce the speed limit in this area. Away I go and I have a creat time! At the end of the road is cop and he writes me a VERY large speeding ticket. Did my erroneous conclusion about the lack of enforcement prevent from getting a ticket? I go before the judge and explain to him that since I didn't see any cops that must mean that the speed limit laws are not enforced in the area so I should not be held accountable. Do you think the judge will accept that argument?

i always love talking to you cm and i love your illustrations.

the above illustration speaks of a finite penalty for a finite offense but your noble both flawed book speaks of an infinite penalty for finite offenses.

disagree if you must but i'm sure you can see why some would be
hesitant in "drinking the kool-aid" and subscribing to that way of thinking.

 

[ChasClean]

For the 1,000,000th time, it is a free gift friend. That means you can accept it or reject it.

Sometimes when we are so busy repeating ourselves 1,000,000 times, we miss the obvious. The obvious is what I stated in Post # 480:

So, you don't consider your original life to be a gift?

Did God ask your permission before He gave it to you?

What about your parents?

Your brothers and sisters and other relatives?

To which I now add:

What about your next breath. Is it a gift? Does God ask your permission before He gives it to you?

By the by, to head something off at the pass: Taking your own life is not refusing the gift of life. That is insanity. Which is really the only defense of eternal torment believers. All things being fair, one would have to be insane to reject eternal life.

Can you prove that the serpent was created at the same time as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

I’m not going off on your sidetrack. What is your point? The serpent was there. God is God. Satan does nothing outside of God’s permission. The serpent was there because God wanted him there.

It is utterly reprehensible to add your own words alongside Scripture and try to make them equal with Scripture. It is one of the major tenets of false teaching.

You do it every Sunday (if you preach). After you read a Scripture passage, do you then say, “Oh, I am no longer reading Scripture. Don’t get the wrong idea. I’m not saying my words are the same as Scripture, even though I am placing my words side by side with Scripture.”

That’s why I placed it in parentheses PK.

And by the way, the passage does say “covet”. Adam did covet. You still did not address the issue. Paul said God gave commands to make sin utterly sinful.

I know God is grateful that He at least has a few Faithful, Obedient, Christians like us. Or He would have ended up with no one.

Total Straw man, not even nearly indicative of a Biblical Christian's viewpoint.

What are you talking about? That is a major part of the foundation of what you believe. Your unbiblical view on “free will”. (I thought I would accuse you of being unbiblical, since you seem to love using that phrase.) Let me repeat your words, with my parentheses (which I know you love)

But the Bible says that all who believe will go!

(And who gets the credit for believing? YOU DO!)

They are on the right path,

(Who gets the credit for being on the right path? YOU DO!)

they are in the right crowd,

(Who gets the credit for being in the right crowd? YOU DO!)

they are going through the right gate,

Who get the credit for going through the right gate? YOU DO!)

and they will be in the right destination!

Who gets the credit for being in the right destination? YOU DO!)

That’s not a straw man. It’s flesh and blood.

Jeremiah 49:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Who does the drawing? God does.

Who shapes your heart? God does. Pr 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

It’s just another case of keeping priorities straight.

GOD SHAPES THE HEART
search for Him with all your heart

GOD IS THE POTTER MOLDING US AS HE SEES FIT.
make the right choice.

GOD DOES THE DRAWING.
come to me all you who labor…

Originally Posted by Chas

Excuse me. Are you trying to dogmatically assert something? Have you ever heard of aionios? Oh, you have? Then you know there is ample evidence of the word being used before, during and after NT times as meaning limited duration. For you to dogmatically assert otherwise is wrong.

Have you ever heard of Battle Royale XII? That is what this thread is about. How about you read it and ask questions that actually indicate you comprehend the arguments made instead of offering up the same tired arguments of Universalism over and over again!

I’m sorry. I thought it was a simple, concise and irrefutable argument. I thought that was why you ignored it.

It Is A Fact that Aionios has been extensively used in a multitude of sources to mean limited duration. It can reasonably mean limited duration in Scriptural passages dealing with life and death. There are other words in Scripture which describe eternal life. And none of these words are used for punishment. You are the ones who are ignoring this fact. To admit this one Fact would seriously shake your entire eternal torment foundation.

 

[ChasClean]

Still, if we pay attention to how we post, and how well it fits with the spirit of TOL and that it does abide by the rules...then what we post will be much better appreciated for what it says....wouldn't it?

Yes, it would. But it is the spirit of TOL which I was addressing. A dead horse was being beat long after you had asked for forgivness. It was the beating of the dead horse that I was addressing.